Wind Stance and flying, can you 5 foot step up?


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

To word it differently, is flying upwards moving through difficult terrain?

Can you move 5 feet in distance with each square moving up with Lightning stance and freedom of movement while flying?

I have few questions I can't find the answers to and the search engine.

Shadow Lodge

The reason why I bring this up is there is a Div with the feat wind stance and has a fly speed with no wings. The only reason I could think that this creature has a need for the feat, wind stance, is that it can fly with a five footstep upwards.

Normally, each square in distance going up is 10 feet in movement while flying. You cannot five footstep upwards while flying.

A creature that has a fly speed can five speed 5 foot step sideways without restriction in difficult terrain, it just doesn't use its legs.

Unless you can move upwards with a 5 foot movement for each square with wind stance, lightning step, or freedom of movement, there is no use in getting this Div any of those abilities for it would be redundant.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ShadowDax wrote:

To word it differently, is flying upwards moving through difficult terrain?

Can you move 5 feet in distance with each square moving up with Lightning stance and freedom of movement while flying?

I have few questions I can't find the answers to and the search engine.

Since flying upwards is double movement, you can't do a 5 foot adjustment doing so.

Shadow Lodge

It is double movement, but why is a double movement? I surmise it could be looked at as going uphill as opposed to going down hill. I was hoping someone knew where it was placed where flying up is considered Difficult terrain.

Wind stance would rock if I could 5 foot step upwards while flying. It would give new meaning to the feats wind and lightning stance along with the freedom of moment spell. Those feats are conditional due to the conditions of the dungeon or what have you. I see them as mainly useful for adventure designers having a monster in mind to make conditions difficult for the players.

Where I saw the Div with the wind stance feat was in a PFS module before the bestiary three came out. The feat has since been edited out.

Thanks for the reply, ciao


Are you trying to use a 5ft step to trigger a feat that needs 10ft+ of movement? Seems pretty cheesy.

But upward movement doesn't have to cost double, only when it's done quickly.

Fly wrote:
Without making a check, a flying creature ... can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees

Then it lists the DC to rise at an angle greater than 45 degrees.

Also, keep in mind that your uphill example might require a climb check as part of that movement, which would also cost extra movement unless you had a Climb speed.

Combat:5-Foot Step wrote:
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

The issue with moving up, is that it applies a movement penalty (effectively costing 10ft of movement), otherwise, you probably could 5ft step upwards.

Also, addressing my opening question --even though you spend 10ft to move 5ft in this situation, it still only counts as 5ft worth of movement for Wind Stance because that's all you've done.

I'd have to search a bit, but I know there are a couple of abilities out there that allow you to move 5ft w/o expending a 5ft step under very strict conditions. (I think at least one is worded "even if you've already taken a 5ft step") It might be somewhat rules sketchy to effectively combine them with a 5ft step to combine a 5ft rise with the rest of your round, but it doesn't seem unreasonable either.

Liberty's Edge

The flying rules are an abstraction, so the double movement cost is not due to difficult terrain, per se. This is definitely within the realm of GM adjudication, though I'm not familiar enough with the various aspects of the flying rules to confidently provide possible ramifications if a GM were to allow such a thing.

Shadow Lodge

Archaeik, if I remember correctly, those rules are in the step up line of feats (follow through the feat?) that kind of allows you to take a second five footstep.

My uphill, downhill reference was in regard to gravity.

I believe because the rules state that it cost double movement to go up you cannot five foot step upwards. This has been stated in plenty a convention where I have played at here in Florida and once in Georgia.

However, if you can find a reference where it states that moving upwards flying, is difficult terrain, then that would give credence to the wind stance and so on, feats that I am referring to.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You need to have effortless movement to get a 5 foot adjustment. The kind of movement you're making is more along the lines of making a 5 foot step. In Flight, it's the same as making a hover check because it involves moving at less than half your flight speed. So actually a flying creature can't make a 5 foot adjustment under ANY circumstances, unless a special power or ability is involved.

Shadow Lodge

LazarX wrote:
You need to have effortless movement to get a 5 foot adjustment. The kind of movement you're making is more along the lines of making a 5 foot step. In Flight, it's the same as making a hover check because it involves moving at less than half your flight speed. So actually a flying creature can't make a 5 foot adjustment under ANY circumstances, unless a special power or ability is involved.

As I understand what you're posting, it takes a move action to move while flying no matter what. I thought if you had the speed of the movement you were doing, such as a fly speed, you can take a five step while flying.

Silver Crusade

It seems like the movement in the Air Walk spell works similarly.

Shadow Lodge

DesolateHarmony wrote:
It seems like the movement in the Air Walk spell works similarly.

The spell says you "tread", meaning you're using normal movement as if you were walking. In either case, whether you fly, climb, swim or burrow, if you have the speed for the movement you are using, such as under the monsterous physique spells, you can take a five foot step.

This is right out of the latest version of the book, "You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed."

This is under the fly spell, "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load)."

Apparently, you can five foot step in any direction except for moving up when flying. Slippers of climbing give you a climb speed of 20 feet. Using the climb skill with out the climb speed does not allow you to five foot step.

A 5 foot step is possible if you have speed for it. Speed meaning, the ability of moment you are using that you have movement for.


If your character's movement speed is 5', then it takes a move action to move that 5 feet. This may look like a 5' step, but it is not. This sets precedent that it isn't the movement type that determines the distance but, rather, the distance that determines what movement type is necessary. If you want to fly 5' up, that costs 10' of movement. A 5' step only works on distances that cost 5' of movement.

Shadow Lodge

Kazaan, I agree with you. It seems, that the wind stance feat was an oversight and redundancy in the module that came out for the creature before the bestiary 3 was released the creature was in.

Maybe wind stance feat would work well if your movement was only 5 feet like the Mermen.


It seems that it was specifically designed such that you couldn't benefit from Wind Stance from taking a 5' step; you need to devote at least a move action to get the benefit. In the case of a creature with only 5' of movement, they'd have to double-move to get the benefit. If you're slower than 5', it takes a full 6 seconds just to waddle/crawl/creep 5' and that is the exact opposite of quick, erratic movements that make you hard to pinpoint for ranged attacks.

Lantern Lodge

I thought flying up is not double movement, but rather you fly up at half-speed. Which seems the same, but have huge differences in terms of use, like 5-foot.


Half-speed is double movement cost; they are the same, mechanically speaking, in Pathfinder. If you're moving at half speed, it costs you 10 feet worth of movement for every 5 feet of actual distance you cover.

Shadow Lodge

Kazaan wrote:
It seems that it was specifically designed such that you couldn't benefit from Wind Stance from taking a 5' step; you need to devote at least a move action to get the benefit. In the case of a creature with only 5' of movement, they'd have to double-move to get the benefit. If you're slower than 5', it takes a full 6 seconds just to waddle/crawl/creep 5' and that is the exact opposite of quick, erratic movements that make you hard to pinpoint for ranged attacks.

So, wind stance does not give a creature with the movement of five feet the availability of a five foot step. Wow, that is big and very restricting.

I can't figure out a way to make the stance's feats effective unless I make the surface of the ground difficult terrain. It is a thought, stone call, sleet or ice storm are the only spells that come to mind.

In a home campaign, this might be a very potent combo along with CMB kinds of fighting characters. Control to a point of lock down is very powerful and harder to achieve.

Lantern Lodge

Kazaan wrote:
Half-speed is double movement cost; they are the same, mechanically speaking, in Pathfinder. If you're moving at half speed, it costs you 10 feet worth of movement for every 5 feet of actual distance you cover.

Hummmm... Your right. Not sure what I was thinking when I thought half-speed. :P

Please ignore my original post.

Sovereign Court

As other posters said, RAW I'd say no. In a home game, I'd probably allow it if the creature had a sufficient fly check and a listed fly speed.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Wind Stance and flying, can you 5 foot step up? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.