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Ahoy, fellow Pathfinders!
Had a couple Barbed Devils come up in a game I was running last night. Wanted to double-check that I ran the impale ability correctly, for the future. I don't have a lot of experience running high level games, and was a bit surprised with how badly one of these guys shredded the party Cleric.
Melee 2 claws +18 (2d8+6/19–20 plus fear and grab)
CMB +22 grapple
Grab (Ex) A barbed devil can use its grab attack against a foe of up to Medium size.
Impale (Ex) A barbed devil deals 3d8+9 points of piercing damage to a grabbed opponent with a successful grapple check.
As I understand it, that combines to produce the following full-attack routine: Claw-Grab-Impale-Release, Claw-Grab-Impale-Release, for 5d8+15 damage on each successful claw-impale combo (average 37.5 each, average 75 for both). More (+8 damage each claw) with the devil's power attack if the target looks extra easy to hit.
Does that look right? Or should Impale only trigger on the next turn if the devil successfully maintains the grapple? I ran it like Constrict, but maybe that wasn't correct?
A creature with constrict deals this additional damage every time it makes a successful grapple check against a foe. This includes the first check to establish the grapple (such as when using the grab universal monster rule).
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I would not think the creature could let go of the PC/victem in the middle of an attack, or if he did, that would end the attack. I do think that maintaining the Grapple is when the Impaling damage is applied, unlike Constrict.
I wouldn't think the creature would get the Impale and both claws in one round.
The barbed devil is allowed a free CMB check to grapple its opponent that it hits with a claw attack, but I don't see where the impale is free. That requires a separate grapple check as far as I can tell. So if it maintains its grapple then the next round it could impale without having to roll against the AC of the target (just the CMD).
That's my take on it at least. You may owe your cleric PC an apology, heh. Good luck!
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The barbed devil is allowed a free CMB check to grapple its opponent that it hits with a claw attack, but I don't see where the impale is free. That requires a separate grapple check as far as I can tell. So if it maintains its grapple then the next round it could impale without having to roll against the AC of the target (just the CMD).
That's my take on it at least. You may owe your cleric PC an apology, heh. Good luck!
The Cleric survived, thanks to a timely breath of life from some first aid gloves, and was in good humor about it. Thankfully! When the shredding came up, since the rule wasn't immediately clear to me and since it was about to pile on a bunch of extra damage, I did get a general consensus from the table before making the rule. The table thought it was reasonable enough and it looked (in the moment) like the right call to me, so we went with it. :-)
The crux of the question is whether Impale acts like Constrict. That's where the "free" Impale damage would come from. If it does, then claw-grab-impale-release [x2] is a legitimate attack routine. See the FAQ quoted in OP for constrict applying immediately. Compare the above-quoted Impale language to the Constrict language here:
Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage).
@thaX, it's a free action to grab and a free action to release a grapple, so there's no worry of it "interrupting" the full attack.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
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I don't see how Impale is any different from armor spikes (except the damage, obviously).
So to answer your specific question, no, I don't believe Impale works like constrict. I believe it works like armor spikes.
That's a good comparison case. Thanks!
It's not clear to me, from the Armor Spikes description, that they wouldn't work for a grapple-spike-release routine, though.
Not trying to be contentious, just trying to get the best case on either side of the question on the table to help me think it over. :-)
I think the next step will be to look at the bestiary data for average damage output of equivalently-CR'd melee monsters and see how the routine compares. If it's crazy high in comparison, that's a pretty good reason to avoid it.
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That's fair, the relevant text comes from the Grapple section (warning long quote just to show the whole text).
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
Emphasis mine. Basically, after you are in control of the grapple, you can use subsequent actions to try and remain in control of the grapple. If you remain in control (i.e. you beat their cmd), you can do one of the above actions for free.
High average damage for a CR 11 monster is 50 points. When power attacking, the barbed devil does 2d8 (9) + 14 or 23 x 2 attacks or 46. That's without 2 impales added in to the mix. It seems too much to me to add in the free impales as part of the standard attack routine.
Good call on getting the players to chime in about the ruling at the table, by the way. That's how we do things when we aren't sure, too, and that way feelings don't get hurt and when we have time afterwards we can go do some research (as you are) and find out how we want to do things going forward. Good on ya!
By my reading, and they way I have always ran barbed devils (in Pathfinder), I believe the impale kicks in the next round when he maintains the grapple.
The devil maintains, and if successful automatically inflicts his impale damage. Then he gets to choose whether he inflicts his natural attack or pins, etc.
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High average damage for a CR 11 monster is 50 points. When power attacking, the barbed devil does 2d8 (9) + 14 or 23 x 2 attacks or 46. That's without 2 impales added in to the mix. It seems too much to me to add in the free impales as part of the standard attack routine.
Right, that table is a good reference point.
Monster By CR Table, CR 11 High Attack 19, Low Attack 14, High Damage 50, Low Damage 37.
So here are our three scenarios with the Barbed Devil.
(1) With Impale, no Power Attack: 2 claws +18 (2d8+6/19-20 plus fear and grab); grapple +22 (3d8+9). Average Damage if All Hit: 75.
(2) No Impale, no Power Attack: 2 claws +18 (2d8+6/19-20 plus fear and grab). Average Damage if All Hit: 30.
(3) No Impale, with Power Attack: 2 claws +14 (2d8+14/19-20 plus fear and grab). Average Damage if All Hit: 46.
In Scenario (1), the Barbed Devil does much better than the table suggests! In Scenario (2) and Scenario (3), however, the Devil significantly underperforms on either damage or attack numbers. Looking at the CR 11 Hezrou demon for comparison, I'm tempted to say it's not so bad to give the Barbed Devil Impale after all. Comparable scenarios:
(2H) Hezrou, no Power Attack: bite +17 (4d4+8 plus grab), 2 claws +17 (1d8+8 plus grab). Average Damage if All Hit: 43.
(3H) Hezrou, with Power Attack: bite +14 (4d4+14 plus grab), 2 claws +14 (1d8+14 plus grab). Average Damage if All Hit: 61.
Add in the high DC for the nausea ability and its reach, and it looks like a rather nastier threat than the Barbed-Devil-minus-Impale.
Which of course doesn't decide the case! The damage output on the Impale is still very dangerous and it's reasonable to conclude that Impale would be too much. And maybe looking at other CR 11 monsters would provide additional context that would show the Hezrou, rather than the Barbed Devil, to be the outlier. But this is a helpful exercise, thanks! :-)
Good call on getting the players to chime in about the ruling at the table, by the way. That's how we do things when we aren't sure, too, and that way feelings don't get hurt and when we have time afterwards we can go do some research (as you are) and find out how we want to do things going forward. Good on ya!
Thanks! :-)
I've had a few "bad" character deaths in the past, when my guy got squished in a way that left me a bit upset. I've tried to learn from that to avoid inflicting the same on my players!
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By my reading, and they way I have always ran barbed devils (in Pathfinder), I believe the impale kicks in the next round when he maintains the grapple.
The devil maintains, and if successful automatically inflicts his impale damage. Then he gets to choose whether he inflicts his natural attack or pins, etc.
That's a helpful suggestion, thanks. One of the things that prompted me down this line of thinking was looking at the statblock and saying, hmm, only 3d8+9? Why would the devil grab, then? But I missed that Impale seems "automatic" at least for the maintain, which lets the devil do claw damage as well. That makes grappling a slightly more sensible tactical option (for high Will save enemies), at least if the devil has buddies to engage non-grapplers.
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So the way I understand it, it gets two claw attacks with grab (Whether or not the first one grapples or not) then maintains and gets the Impale in the next and successive turns, which is slightly higher damage than the claws.
This is the way I would have run it. Standard to maintain, damage as a part of that, no movement because of Grapple. (Though it can use move actions for other things, like if a spell like ability had a flaming sphere, it could move it)
Constrict usually is about the same damage or a little more than the regular natural attack, but it can do the actions you stepped out in your first post. (Attack, grab, constrict, release.) There is a particular Druid in our circle that can do this with his snake...
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It seems to work like constrict to me. It says upon a successful grapple check which is what grab allows.
I don't like the idea of releasing someone and grabbing them again, but I also understand that if a monster is fighting alone from an OoC perspective it is efficient to do so.
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It seems to work like constrict to me. It says upon a successful grapple check which is what grab allows.
I don't like the idea of releasing someone and grabbing them again, but I also understand that if a monster is fighting alone from an OoC perspective it is efficient to do so.
Yeah, but some uses of it breaks both verisimilitude, and any distant vision of proper challenge.
After all, it is possible, in a worst case scenario, for it to knock out an opponent per round with stat damage alone.
CR 8 opponent
4 claws +14 (1d4+4 plus grab)
Special Attacks evisceration, sneak attack +2d6
Evisceration (Ex) A mi-go’s claws are capable of swiftly and painfully performing surgical operations upon helpless creatures or creatures it has grappled. When a mi-go succeeds at a grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check), it deals its sneak attack damage to the victim. A creature that takes this damage must succeed at a DC 18 Fortitude save or take an additional 1d4 points of ability damage from the invasive surgery (the type of ability damage dealt is chosen by the mi-go at the time the evisceration occurs). The save DC is Dexterity-based.
With a series of claw/grab/drops, you get 1d4+4+2d6 times 4, and a DC 18 Fort save each time or lose 1d4 ability of its choice. Ugly
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Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack
Impale (Ex) A barbed devil deals 3d8+9 points of piercing damage to a grabbed opponent with a successful grapple check
I see a difference in the two texts:
Constrict work when the attacking creature makes a successful grapple check, i.e. it kick in every time the creature make the check and for every check, even the first time it grapple.
Impale to activate require you to make a successful grapple check against a grabbed creature. It is a form of additional damage when you maintain the grapple check and it is added toi the claw damage.
The requirement seem clear: he need to have already grabbed his target when he make the grapple check.
Fair enough. That makes sense.
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Mark was kind enough to give his take on his Ask thread, HERE.
I believe that the wording is very slightly different than for constrict, since it deals its damage "to a grabbed opponent with a successful grapple check", which seems to mean they must be a grabbed opponent first to qualify for that line (so all future grapple checks).
Granted, Pathfinder grapple is much simpler now than ever before for straightforward builds, but I think it really needs a FAQ blog some day for all the many corner cases. There are at least two corner cases that I happen to know are either being misinterpreted by some players or being correctly interpreted by strict RAW but not working as intended.
I think you handled it right in the first place..... claws give free grab which does extra damage...... sorry about the cleric blood everywhere but it is an infernal killing machine
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I think you handled it right in the first place..... claws give free grab which does extra damage...... sorry about the cleric blood everywhere but it is an infernal killing machine
He handled it properly by when not understanding he opened it up to the group for a consensus. Other than that, we've provided all the rules necessary to show how it actually works..