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I'm not really fond of casters, so that kind of rules out wizards, clerics and such. I do like half-casters, though, since they hit a good balance between martials (my preferred classes) and casters. I'm really excited about brawlers. It's about time we got a GOOD unarmed class!
Also, bards. I never liked bards. I don't know why, I just don't.
Personally, I find the basic Martials dull...
Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Barbarians, rogues, slayers... ect..
I prefer casters... when your turn is "I Full attack" I get very bored very fast....
Things that turn me off a class:
1. Alignment restrictions: I don't mind the cleric's restriction, and restrictions like "any non-lawful" aren't onerous even if I think they're idiotic, but I generally avoid anything tighter than that. Too many DMs have very specific and peculiar ideas about this stuff, particularly when it comes to the meaning of Law and/or Good.
2. Jack-of-All-Trades: I like the idea of well-rounded characters moderately talented in many areas, but in practice it just doesn't play as cool as I imagine it, especially when it comes to combat. So I generally avoid MAD classes, partial casters, and those with medium BAB.
3. Too Simple: I'll play simple martial-types at low-low levels, but I lean toward casters for level 5+ games.
The magus is my favorite class and i use a lot of dwarven magus npcs. However I ban deverish dance and change spell critical to use the weapons multiplier, I really don't know why it is held to x2 in vanilla rules myself.
I Dislike rangers and will probably just ban them and recommend that my PCs play slayers when the APC is published.
Paladins are a fun class but they need the right combination of player, party, and world type to work. As a GM it is useful to have a PC paladin to help keep the party on track so that we can advance the story.
Monks just don't work mechanically and I have not found a way to make them work.
I dislike druids and summoners only because they have a lot of planning required and I have had PCs play them poorly and show down gemeplay a lot.
Let's see ...
Prep-casting. Too annoying, too powerful, too much paperwork, doesn't fit my idea of how magic works.
Alignment restrictions. Just ... no.
Power-loss mechanics. LAME.
Summons, mounts, familiars, animal companions. I don't want to juggle that many sheets when I'm a player. Fortunately, these are all removable nowadays.
I try to avoid classes where people perceive only one personality/schtick for them. Hippie druids/rangers, flamboyant musician bards, backstabbing (the party) rogues, dumb-as-a-bowl-of-mice barbarians ... the list goes on.
Yes, this does leave me with about half a dozen classes I actually like, though there are others I will play if I feel I have to for a concept.
Fighters: Played fighters before - DnD just seems to want them to be super boring no matter what edition (2nd, 3.75, 4th) They can never do anything besides hit stuff really hard. Nothing makes a Fighter stand out from say, the Warrior NPC class.
Druids: Like a lamer version of the Cleric and the Summoner mixed together, with super petty restrictions like "no metal armor" and stuff. Meh.
Gunslinger: They looked cool to me for awhile, but I think they're just too cheesy OP getting Dex mod to their damage AND hitting touch AC at range.
Bard: Neither a spell caster or a martial, somewhere inbetween and I don't like it. Not like the Magus btw which is clearly a martial with combat casting abilities. This class just seems a little too "passive" for me.
Monk: Super MAD class, but I might try to give it a shot if my DM lets me play a Kasatha (which were basically made to play Monks and give it a power boost) I think the worst part about the monk is NO armor, which is rather lame.
Oracle: Ew, I'd rather just go Cleric. I can't really put my finger down on why I don't like this class.
Ranger: Nothing appeals to me, and getting a more limited version of an animal companion sucks.
A word on the Cleric - 4e gave me a bad taste of it since my friend played a Cleric. Initially my impression of Cleric was "Healbot" with an even more serious case of MAD than the Monk, but after my successful Dwarven Battle Cleric build I realized the Cleric can be pulled off - it just needs a LOT of very fine work done to do it. I hear about how people say Cleric was better in 3.5 than the Fighter at fighting and that changed in Pathfinder, my experience is they are still better.
anything where i have to probably check back on the rules of something, i don't like. So this is generally casters and weird abilities with a ton of specific rules, like the eidolon and such.
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I've never been a bard fan. They've just never inspired me to a character concept at all really.
Mechanics wise there's no class I think ism worse than the other. I've played many of them, and find it's not the class that gives me the enjoyment but how the character develops in the game and their personality that gives me the enjoyment.
I have to say though, high level casters are hard work to run, and that does take some enjoyment from the game.
The other point I would like to make, while I don't mind Paladins at all, my group are more the mercenary type than heroic type. As such, a paladin in the group stifles their preferred play style quite a bit. It leads to many situations where either the paladin is at risk of breaking code, or the other players make decisions to keep the paladins code in tact, but it's not what they would have done if he wasn't there. As such, we don't play paladins unless the AP makes sense for it to happen.
Cheers
whats funny is that the no armor part and can fight unarmed is a big attraction to me liking the monk, i so want to be competitive with a unarmed no armor class...nothing manlier then a open chest fisticuffing the dragon with a 30 foot jump right in the face! (ok ya..sorry, i love monks rather irrationally i know)
Hey, you're not alone on that one. Though I'd drop the "manly" portion personally. Boxing ladies though... mmmmm...
Oh, uh, right. I'm not a fan of 9th level casters, way too much book keeping and I've never really liked the flavor. I don't want to be Gandalf, I want to be Ayla.
It leads to many situations where either the paladin is at risk of breaking code, or the other players make decisions to keep the paladins code in tact, but it's not what they would have done if he wasn't there.
This is, essentially, the biggest problem with the paladin.
Summons, mounts, familiars, animal companions. I don't want to juggle that many sheets when I'm a player. Fortunately, these are all removable nowadays.
Oooh, good one! One character sheet is enough for me, thanks.
Just a foreward, the whole separation of Arcane and Divine magic in PF turns me off from the get go. In fact, a lot of the black and white themes in PF gross me out; Good and Evil, Law and Chaos (Which seems like a really esoteric philosophical concept to me. I feel like all practicioners of organized religion qualify as Lawful, but that's a different discussion), Arcane and Divine, and i guess that's it, basically.
Druids: I truly want to enjoy playing this class, as I like the idea of a shape-shifting magician with a link to the natural world, but it just seems too forced and hokey for me. Like, why can't I wear metal armor? It's still made of matter...from the earth, I don't see why it's any more processed than woven cloth or tanned leather, which required the death of an animal...
I just...I don't want to have to be a super-vegan-flower-child to draw my magic from the natural world.
Paladins: I prefer playing NG characters, because again, I feel like the Law-Chaos spectrum is weird.
Gunslingers: I do enjoy guns in my fantasy, I just don't like the complexity of the class. Having to track paper catridges and black powder and all of these crazy wild wacky things is just..icky.
Inquisitors: It's not that I don't like this class, I just still don't get it. What's the shtick? Is it basically an alternate, questionably better ranger with 3/4 BAB? Because the ranger class's mechanics already fit the Inquisitor fluff pretty well. I haven't studied the class extensively, but I expected more of a...anti-caster, feel. I guess I'll just have to play one.
Cavaliers: Every time I try and build one the whole concept just turns into a Barbarian...
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Min-maxers with a terminal case of stophavingfunguys.
Especially when magic is involved.
I feel like the Law-Chaos spectrum is weird.
The solution is to read lots of Warhammer 40k.
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Min-maxers with a terminal case of stophavingfunguys.
Especially when magic is involved.
Cool story bro.
@CommandoDude
You can't make me, many have tried.
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Oracle: I just don't grok how Oracle doesn't actively suck.
Oh sure, some of the abilities you can get are cool or interesting, but I will like [u]maybe[/u] 3 out of any one mystery (and I can only pick one), and I get to actually know a tiny, TINY handful of spells. I can cast Cure light wounds OR bless, I can cure disease OR curses, but at any level I'm throwing interesting or useful spells out because I don't have enough on my available list and you get 1 more per day. One spell per day of a spell I may not even NEED that entire week.
I mean, I am sure I'm just doing it wrong somehow, but any build I come up with *sucks* compared to a bog-standard cleric with her domains.
Much like Sorcerers, Oracles don't have the liberty to take "I might need it sometime this week" spells. They take the essentials, and they can do them a lot every day.
Also, favored class bonus for spells known is pretty amazing. Half-elf, Half-orc or Human only, but it's really, really good.
Oracle: I just don't grok how Oracle doesn't actively suck.
Oh sure, some of the abilities you can get are cool or interesting, but I will like [u]maybe[/u] 3 out of any one mystery (and I can only pick one), and I get to actually know a tiny, TINY handful of spells. I can cast Cure light wounds OR bless, I can cure disease OR curses, but at any level I'm throwing interesting or useful spells out because I don't have enough on my available list and you get 1 more per day. One spell per day of a spell I may not even NEED that entire week.
I mean, I am sure I'm just doing it wrong somehow, but any build I come up with *sucks* compared to a bog-standard cleric with her domains.
Honestly, the problem sounds like you aren't picking very good spells. Lunar Oracle can be insanely CHA-sad, getting CHA to just about everything and letting you dump DEX like there's no tomorrow. Stop picking cure spells... buy a wand or CLW. Seriously, in combat healing is virtually always going to be your worst option. (Heal is an exception.)
just wondering what makes you look at a class and go "eww"
Without listing every class, I'll try to answer your question.
1) Lying outside the power curve, either high or low.
To me, the important type of game balance is that all of the party members are balanced with one another. It's fine with me if the party is more or less powerful than expected for their level, as that's easy for a GM to compensate for.
Example: Monk, they just can't keep up unless I grant the player some special items or house rules to compensate.
2) Not functioning at some levels.
Pathfinder went a long way toward fixing this, but it still applies. Some classes don't work at low levels, and others have trouble at high levels.
Example: Druid, who should have some degree of wildshape from level 1 and/or summon spells that last "until the end of the fight" instead of rounds per level, which is useless at 1st level.
3) Requiring a change to the game world to function.
I want each class to work in the setting, both mechanically and thematically.
Example: Gunslinger, the only reason to add firearms to a Pathfinder game. Also, because it's the only class that expends gold to use its basic abilities, it throws off the party economy.
Just a foreward, the whole separation of Arcane and Divine magic in PF turns me off from the get go. In fact, a lot of the black and white themes in PF gross me out; Good and Evil, Law and Chaos (Which seems like a really esoteric philosophical concept to me. I feel like all practicioners of organized religion qualify as Lawful, but that's a different discussion), Arcane and Divine, and i guess that's it, basically.
It is a separate discussion because not much of this turns me completely off to a class -- aside from overly restrictive alignment requirements -- but yeah, I agree with much of what you say. I think the Good vs. Evil theme can be fun, but I find the law vs. chaos thing to be confused and uninspiring, and the divine vs. arcane thing to be utterly gamey.
(A wizard or sorcerer casting inflict wounds is totally legit, but the same character casting cure wounds requires a bunch of system mastery to achieve a result that could have been achieved by simply adding cure wounds to arcane spell lists? Really?)
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Actually I will partially rescend my last statement. There are 2 martial classes and 3 "Martial" classes I do like...
1) The investigator. Yes, it is a skill monkey, but they way they fight is fairly interesting, they have cool abilities, and they are intelligent. This class is fun (especially wiht the changes they have announced in the spoiler)
2) The brawler. Odd yes? But the ability to change things up on the fly I feel adds a certain amount of dynamicy to the brawler that other martials just don't have. Brawlers are one of the only martials that truly have options.
3) Melee druid build. Yes I know it is technically a "caster" but it's round in combat is still usually spent full attacking. But the ability to still have options and spell casting is awesome. Additionally, the flavor of the class is awesome.
4) The Magus. Or more specifically, the Kensai and the Hexcrafter. Both of those classes just FEEL awesome. The kensai is just legit when you combine it with (Greater) Bladed Dash and haste and such (just feels like a Kenshin type character of badassery... i.e. what the martial SHOULD be able to do). The Hexcrafter I love putting in Heavy armor (late game) and using his hexes to lay waste while crushing people with my Katana (i just prefer teh flavor anf imagery of it more than anything).
5) The Summoner. I know people liek to scream broken-ness about it but I love the flavor the Eidolon allows me to implement. I creating the guy who is weak, but has a monster of his own imagination tearing things to shreds (it just feels awesome :))
The ranger's animal companion is not that bad when favored enemy is in play because it also benefits from favored enemy just like the ranger does. It can provide a good boost the ranger's DPR.
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Any ability with a duration of "until the end of combat"
Also don't oracles get clw/ilw automatically anyway?Honestly, the problem sounds like you aren't picking very good spells. Lunar Oracle can be insanely CHA-sad, getting CHA to just about everything and letting you dump DEX like there's no tomorrow. Stop picking cure spells... buy a wand or CLW. Seriously, in combat healing is virtually always going to be your worst option. (Heal is an exception.)Oracle: I just don't grok how Oracle doesn't actively suck.
Oh sure, some of the abilities you can get are cool or interesting, but I will like [u]maybe[/u] 3 out of any one mystery (and I can only pick one), and I get to actually know a tiny, TINY handful of spells. I can cast Cure light wounds OR bless, I can cure disease OR curses, but at any level I'm throwing interesting or useful spells out because I don't have enough on my available list and you get 1 more per day. One spell per day of a spell I may not even NEED that entire week.
I mean, I am sure I'm just doing it wrong somehow, but any build I come up with *sucks* compared to a bog-standard cleric with her domains.
Yes. They get all Cure X Wounds/Inflict X Wounds for free by default.
I hate reliance on the short adventuring day. I generally avoid full casters but after a few levels they can last all day but the Paladin has too many abilities that happen only a few times a day. I don't care WHAT smite evil does but if it's the Paladin's signiture ability I want to hand out smites like Watchtowers.
I hate mandatory pets. Summoner is tolerable because, what else are you going to do when you're a summoner, but I think Cavalier and Witch have room for something that is not a pet.
I don't like third party material that gives controversial feats as class features. Leadership is probably the first feat banned in any given game but some third party classes get Leadership somehow in their class features. Saw one a long time ago that had pseudo Blood Money as a class feature.
I don't like hardwired class features like Deeds and Judgments. If those were modular like Talents or Arcana, it would open design space to add more in future material instead of having to take archetypes that specifically replace them with specific new ones. Its just dead end design, I just feel stuck.
If a class is too powerful I avoid it. If it shows up in the optimizing threads, i generally avoid it.
If a class is too powerful I avoid it. If it shows up in the optimizing threads, i generally avoid it.
Don't they all end up there?
Heck even fighters and rogues have optimization threads.
If a class is too powerful I avoid it. If it shows up in the optimizing threads, i generally avoid it.Don't they all end up there?
Heck even fighters and rogues have optimization threads.
So.. he doesn't play pathfinder xD
Any ability with a duration of "until the end of combat"
I love these! Isn't there a general rule somewhere that equates "until the end of the encounter" to a define timeframe, like 5 minutes?
I tend to avoid rogues and blasting casters because I don't get the same excitement most people do from rolling a mountain of d6s.
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Instead of doing a flat "I this class because" and "I love this class because", I'll mix it up with a Love/Hate for each:
Alchemist
Love: Love the mutagen feature. Throw anything, brew potion early makes a potent but not overpowered class.
Hate: Most extracts are pointless, odd that it has a low Will save?
Barbarian
Love: Cool rage powers allow almost any style - mounted, ranged, barehanded. Non-spellcasting class that gets a decent will save. Decent amount of skill points.
Hate: Hmm... hard to say. I really love Bar-bars.
Bard
Love: Ye gads, where to start? This is my favorite class - can do anything, be anything, and feels like the only class built with a party style of play in mind. Great spell lists with Bard-only spells that are thematically sounds. CHA synergizes well with spells and most class abilities.
Hate: Gets whip proficiency but is too feat starved to do anything cool with it.
Cavalier
Love: Gets mount at first level, Order edicts are what Paladin's code should have been,
Hate: Most order abilities are pretty 'meh'. Weak will save. Tactician is a terrible feature that is functionally useless until 17th level.
Cleric
Love: Great spell list, again flexible thanks to the sheer number of domains available. Will save that synergizes well with primary casting stat.
Hate: Channel Energy is a waste of print. Warpriest's "Fervor" is such a better mechanic it should replace it entirely.
Druid
Love: Wildshape is powerful without being too powerful (now). Great will save that synergizes with primary casting stat. Animal companion/domain are great trade-off. Spontaneous SNA is great.
Hate: The single most pointless alignment restriction in the game. I understand the Neutral is a holdover from D&D, and they've relaxed from the olden days, but seriously? STUPID.
Fighter
Love: Ease of play, flexibility. Armor training is one of the best combat features for a martial class.
Hate: Weak will save (again). 2+ skill points makes no friggin' sense whatsoever. Weapon Training is incredibly weak (I house rule it to apply to all weapons) which is pathetic considering the fighter's schtick.
Gunslinger
Love: Grit mechanic. I wish more classes had options that rewarded players for attempting to do cool things - which 'Hero Points' kind of do, but I love the class-specific flavor that grit provides.
Hate: Firearm rules are wonky and I HATE guns in high fantasy.
Inquisitor:
Love: Flavor - feels very Van Helsing. Bane is an example of how to make a 3/4 BAB class combat viable without stepping on traditional martials' toes.
Hate: I hate any class ability that makes you take Teamwork feats, although at least the Inquisitor doesn't make you jump through hoops to make your party gain the benefits. Just make them bonus feats.
Magus:
Love: 3/4 BAB with spellcasting abilities makes Gish viable.
Hate: Encourages 15 minute workday even more than traditional wizard, also one build is so optimized it discourages variation.
Monk
Love: Scaling unarmed damage. Bar-none, has some of the BEST archetypes in the game.(Zen Archer rules your face) All good saves!
Hate: Opposite of the Druid: Nothing synergizes well. Also, some abilities feel like they were plucked out of thin-air. Tongue of the Sun and Moon? Dubya tee eff is that? Also has the SECOND most pointless alignment restriction in the game.
Oracle
Love: Perhaps more than any other class, the flavor of this appeals to me more than any mechanical benefits. A reluctant scion thrust into fates beyond his ken due to higher powers is rich soil to mine for role-playing.
Hate: Not all curses are created equal - some are so painfully hindering as to be a joke, and some are so ridiculously banal you may as well not be cursed in the first place.
Paladin
Love: Alignment restriction. Yeah, I know, I'm in the minority, but I think - thematically speaking - it works very well for the Paladin. Divine Grace. (I can't stand weak saves - especially Will) Divine Bond, especially with the alternate mount or weapon option. Immunity to mind-affecting magic.
Hate: This is kind of Love/Hate, but as much as I enjoy Smite Evil, it's just so OP. Especially once you can give it to your party. Gee, I just gave everybody the ability to overcome the Balor's DR AT LEVEL 10.
Ranger
Love: Combat style is how fighter's bonus feats SHOULD work. Fsvored Enemy is great situational bonus for games that are heavy on a certain type of creature. Hunter's bond with an AC makes you damn powerful, even without "Boon Companion" and with BC you're a force to be reckoned with.
Hate: 'Hunter's Bond' alternative option is perhaps the worst trade off I could imagine. Most other classes you give alternatives - this is barely a step up from just nixing the animal companion altogether. Favored Enemy spell makes a good class feature extra cheesy.
Rogue
Love: Havin' a whole mess of skill points. I like skills, I like being good at skills.
Hate: Crappy saves, crappy BAB, pointlessly gimped in its major class feature, outclassed by LITERALLY EVERY OTHER CLASS at doing what it's supposed to do best. Makes a decent dip if you're playing a skill starved class otherwise, but other than that, there's very little I can say for it.
Sorcer
Love: Bloodline powers are sweet. Good will save progression - which I always want - and CHA based, which is another thing I enjoy. Less paperwork makes for a great intermediate class when you're ready to try out a caster but not quite ready for a Wizard.
Hate: 2+skill points works for Wizards because they're INT based casters. Sorcerers are pained by it. Also the diminished spellcasting is unnecessary and unfair.
Summoner
Hate: My one and only flat-out 'hate'. Take the busted 3.5 Druid and magnify every problem by, then add an overly complicated Eidolon (Side note: How is that pronounced? AYE-duh-LAHN or AYE-DOE-LUN? I've heard both.) that I guarantee you will be built improperly. Its spell list is more powerful than either the Druid or Cleric, 3/4 BAB classes that get 9th level spell-casting. Flavor doesn't fit anything else printed. Just screw this class. Even the good Will save puts me off as it once again got the best possible option among those available when it REALLY didn't need it. The only scenario I could imagine wanting to play a Summoner is as a thought experiment to see how utterly I could wreck a campaign.
Witch
Love: Hexes are, for the most part, great. Love that it's an Arcane class with healing capabilities - kind of a 'white mage' for Pathfinder. Say it with me - great will save!
Hate: Some of the things that spell list is missing feels wrong - like not having 'Invisibility' for instance. Whole "Patron" thing feels like it was copied and pasted from the Sorcerer section. Fluff REALLY makes it sound like it should be a CHA based caster.
Wizard
Love: Iconic. Again, Will save makes me happy. 'Familiar' is one of the coolest class features, surpassing even the Druid's animal companion in its sheer usefulness without being stupidly OP (Did I mention I hate Summoners?)
Hate: Dull in the low levels. Specialist school abilities feel like a little too much icing on the cake, especially when it already gets too many goodies over the poor sorcerer.
Can't speak on the ACG since I've not really played any of them yet.
I'm going to set a double standard here....
I hate Casters, but on the other hand, I am playing a Magus for the Rune Lords AP. I won't play a full caster of any kind simply because I don't like dealing with spells. The only reason I decided to try the Magus was a few years ago we were playing 3.5 and I saw the Duskblade. I thought a Gish would be a neat thing to try.
So for the next couple of years (we just started this AP) I get to play a 'Gish'.
I'd rather play a fighter, because of all the feats.
I like rogues because of the Talents and the light fighter type.
I like most of the other largely melee classes.
But the guys that stick in back as support or fire off lightning bolts just isn't my idea of fun.
And yet here I am playing a Magus.
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I'm going to set a double standard here....
I hate Casters, but on the other hand, I am playing a Magus for the Rune Lords AP. I won't play a full caster of any kind simply because I don't like dealing with spells. The only reason I decided to try the Magus was a few years ago we were playing 3.5 and I saw the Duskblade. I thought a Gish would be a neat thing to try.So for the next couple of years (we just started this AP) I get to play a 'Gish'.
I'd rather play a fighter, because of all the feats.
I like rogues because of the Talents and the light fighter type.
I like most of the other largely melee classes.But the guys that stick in back as support or fire off lightning bolts just isn't my idea of fun.
And yet here I am playing a Magus.
Try early entry Eldritch Knight, with the Dimensional Dervish line. I'm a fan of Trapper Freebooter Ranger 1/Scryer Wizard 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Hellknight Signifier 8. Be the frontliner/trapfinder/problem solver.
If you are worried about lack of spell access (since the PRCs don't give you any spells) you can always do a Paladin/Sorcerer base, or Sohei/Empyreal Sorcerer base.
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Try early entry Eldritch Knight, with the Dimensional Dervish line. I'm a fan of Trapper Freebooter Ranger 1/Scryer Wizard 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Hellknight Signifier 8. Be the frontliner/trapfinder/problem solver.
If you are worried about lack of spell access (since the PRCs don't give you any spells) you can always do a Paladin/Sorcerer base, or Sohei/Empyreal Sorcerer base.
People are really good at reading the wrong things into what seems ONLY my posts.... ;)
You did read that I don't like spell casters and that I am locked into the Magus for my current game right?
Try early entry Eldritch Knight, with the Dimensional Dervish line. I'm a fan of Trapper Freebooter Ranger 1/Scryer Wizard 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Hellknight Signifier 8. Be the frontliner/trapfinder/problem solver.
If you are worried about lack of spell access (since the PRCs don't give you any spells) you can always do a Paladin/Sorcerer base, or Sohei/Empyreal Sorcerer base.
People are really good at reading the wrong things into what seems ONLY my posts.... ;)
You did read that I don't like spell casters and that I am locked into the Magus for my current game right?
You said you liked gishes and didn't like being support or shooting nukes. Maybe you don't know what it is you want?