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Golarion's mishmash of genres and tech levels, i find far more realistic than a whole monocultured world. i like that each country is radically different, no matter how close. in fact, Pathfinder is merely emulating its ancestors. it is like going to America, America is a cosmopolitan mishmash of random cultures in random areas. what defines america is akin to what defines golarion, we aren't a mono cultured nation like they aren't a mono cultured world. we are different, and our differences shape us.
Lots of cultures and genres is realistic. How isolated they are isn't. Tech spreads. The British were only able to keep the Industrial Revolution under wraps for about ten years before America had stolen the tech and started their own industrial boom. You need to show constantly how nations influence and feedback on one another to reach anything even coming close to realism. It's very small world esq and hurts my ability to use and enjoy the setting.
That being said none of this is a mark against Iron Gods which is for the most part plausible by me compared such things as Galt, the Worldwound, and Geb/Nex.
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Lots of cultures and genres is realistic. How isolated they are isn't. Tech spreads.
No, useful knowledge spreads. Unless people actively keep it secret. A lot of technology is a lot less useful in a world with magic, and given magic being only able to be used or known by certain people magical knowledge is much easier to keep secret.
Additionally...with the exception of Alkenstar (which is isolated and secretive), the technology differences in most nearby nations are borderline non-existent. You can buy Full Plate most places in Avistan, for example, and that's actually a pretty sophisticated technology.
The British were only able to keep the Industrial Revolution under wraps for about ten years before America had stolen the tech and started their own industrial boom.
The industrial revolution utilized mass production. That makes keeping it a secret an exercise in futility. The same isn't inherently true of other technologies.
Also, Africa wasn't using those methods for a long time afterwards. Nor Russia (though that happened quicker).
You need to show constantly how nations influence and feedback on one another to reach anything even coming close to realism. It's very small world esq and hurts my ability to use and enjoy the setting.
Uh...they do that. There's actually a fair bit of discussion about how neighboring areas interact in most cases. Ustalav's border with Belkzen is discussed, as is the nearness of the Worldwound to Numeria. And so on and so forth.
That being said none of this is a mark against Iron Gods which is for the most part plausible by me compared such things as Galt, the Worldwound, and Geb/Nex.
How are Galt or Nex/Geb especially problematic? Ditto the Worldwound, I suppose, though that one I can see some issues with a bit better.
It's traditional enough that Gygax made a megadungeon themed on it. Not to mention dungeon delving into the unknown and Egypt practically go hand in hand. Egypt is almost synonymous with "dungeon crawl".
Gygax also wrote Expedition to the Barrier Peaks in 1980. By your logic, we should call Iron Gods traditional fantasy.
How long a certain theme has existed has no baring on it being traditional fantasy or not.
Look, I'm happy that Paizo is diversifying and giving everyone something to enjoy. I personally have no interest in Iron Gods and am looking forward to them returning to some traditional fantasy after going away from it for some time.
I think with Nex/Geb is the fact that two cities steeped in magic for their every day lives haven't spread their influence more.
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It's traditional enough that Gygax made a megadungeon themed on it. Not to mention dungeon delving into the unknown and Egypt practically go hand in hand. Egypt is almost synonymous with "dungeon crawl".Gygax also wrote Expedition to the Barrier Peaks in 1980. By your logic, we should call Iron Gods traditional fantasy.
How long a certain theme has existed has no baring on it being traditional fantasy or not.
Look, I'm happy that Paizo is diversifying and giving everyone something to enjoy. I personally have no interest in Iron Gods and am looking forward to them returning to some traditional fantasy after going away from it for some time.
As a matter of fact, yes. It is traditional :) Along with City of the Gods.
A lot of books from the period of 0e/1e had aspects of fantasy and science in it. This was long before people latched on to Lord of the Rings and made that the bar that all settings had to be compared to. My point is, a return to what is deemed as "traditional" isn't long overdue. In fact, it's the reverse. Getting things that break the mold is long overdue. I couldn't count the number of "traditional" modules and Adventure Paths that exist in DnD for those that want it. But I can count DnD modules like this on one hand. Barrier of the Peaks, City of the Gods, and this. That's pretty much my point for people who complain that "we need more traditional APs" or "Pathfinder is becoming too genre inclusive". This AP isn't the end of traditional modules. Rather, this AP is a bone thrown to those of us that want something more. Something different and exciting that sparks the imagination and isn't tied down to the fantasy tropes we see in every video game, book, and movie.
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This is where we disagree. We've had several APs now that have broken "the mold"
Jade Regent - Asian themed
Skulls and Shackles - Pirate themed
Shattered Star - Traditional Fantasy
Reign of Winter - This one's all over the place
Wrath of the Righteous - Mythic
Mummy's Mask - Egyptian themed
I hope Iron Gods is amazing, and I hope they eventually make more that break the mold. But saying Paizo hasn't explored beyond traditional is nonsense.
Yeah definitions of fiction to me fit under a series of terms.
Classic/Traditional Fantasy: a fictional story of setting with medieval/renaissance level technology in a fully magic infused world. High fantasy also fits under this definition however as a more heavily developed characters and stories.
Science Fiction: a fictional story set in the future or present with advanced technology or extraterrestrial creatures.
Found this one on wiki to describe Numeria and Final Fantasy,
Science Fantasy: a fictional story consisting of magic and advanced technology combined in the same setting.
In my opinion out of all the areas of Golarion only Numeria fits the Science Fantasy definition. (Alkenstar is just a Weatern/Steampunk/Magic fiction, look for the novel Dead Iron and it's sequel Tin Swift for examples of this genre.)
... That's pretty much my point for people who complain that "we need more traditional APs" or "Pathfinder is becoming too genre inclusive". This AP isn't the end of traditional modules. Rather, this AP is a bone thrown to those of us that want something more. Something different and exciting that sparks the imagination and isn't tied down to the fantasy tropes we see in every video game, book, and movie. ...
I think that one of my points wasn't communicated very well, it's not that I'm arguing directly against a sci-fantasy setting or adventure, it's that I'm not convinced it needs to exist in the exact same world as the rest of the variant fantasy settings.
As for arguing well we can avoid this if we don't like it, well no, we can't if you play in the PFS. Eventually giant robots, or laser swords or death rays will make an appearance at a PFS table and for me, personally that is an issue for stretching my disbelief. Yes mechanically it's likely to be no different to magical or alchemical items but the trappings and appearance of it will just not feel right sitting alongside a traditional fantasy warrior or wizard.
Actually, in a Paizo event, Lisa Stevens talks about why splitting campaign settings is a bad idea. During her work looking over TSR's sales, it showed that splitting the setting cost them a lot of money and was one of the reasons that led to them going kaput. So from a business standpoint, it's a bad idea.
As for PFS, I doubt these things will make it in as usable items for players. Paizo is still fully aware of how much people are against this. So this is just unfounded fear. Don't worry. I doubt your precious fantasy will be sullied by our horrible, dirty, badwrongfun technology :p (I jest of course)
Beside, they already said that laser swords won't be in the Tech Guide. Doesn't fit the aesthetics.
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I think with Nex/Geb is the fact that two cities steeped in magic for their every day lives haven't spread their influence more.
That's pretty easily explained. Neither is especially expansionistic...and Nex is in the way of Geb expanding North, while other people are in the way of it expanding South. Nex has more theoretical possibilities to expand, but Katapesh isn't without defenses, and they'd pretty much have to go through them.
I guess either could expand into the Mwangi expanse...but why bother?
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Lucio - to a degree that's metagaming though. It's your out of character knowledge that's influencing your in character response.
What is a giant robot if not an iron golem?
What is a laser sword if not a brilliant energy longsword? - or even a flaming longsword?
What is a death ray if not a finger of death spell?
Would your character know enough to tell the difference?
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This is where we disagree. We've had several APs now that have broken "the mold"
Jade Regent - Asian themed
Skulls and Shackles - Pirate themed
Shattered Star - Traditional Fantasy
Reign of Winter - This one's all over the place
Wrath of the Righteous - Mythic
Mummy's Mask - Egyptian themedI hope Iron Gods is amazing, and I hope they eventually make more that break the mold. But saying Paizo hasn't explored beyond traditional is nonsense.
If having an Asian, Egyptian, and Pirates setting is breaking the mold, especially given how many DnD adventures take place in those settings, we have a problem.
Though I do remember when Jade Regent was announced and how up in arms everybody was about how Paizo was ruining Pathfinder and they needed to stick with traditional fantasy and not "this weeabo crap". Replace weeabo with filthy tech and that's what it is.
It's just a bit disheartening that when we finally get an adventure that tries something different, it's always met with the same crowd that wants to keep the adventures from trying new things. Or decries it as ruining their fantasy. Or deem it just a phase and hope we don't get near enough the support traditional fantasy gets. Not saying YOU are, but the tone from others is here.
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It's just a bit disheartening that when we finally get an adventure that tries something different, it's always met with the same crowd that wants to keep the adventures from trying new things. Or decries it as ruining their fantasy. Or deem it just a phase and hope we don't get near enough the support traditional fantasy gets. Not saying YOU are, but the tone from others is here.
Agreed. Maybe if Iron Gods does well, it will entice more 3PPs to create content in that subgenre.
3PP and Paizo
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Yeah, the constant "It's just one AP! And we won't be publishing just science-fantasy stuff during these 6 months! And the next AP will be traditional fantasy! And the one after that! Promise!" feels like a band that released a conceptual album and now tries to placate the rabid traditionalists fans so that they won't go away.
Sure, you gotta make money for living and this is a turbo conservative corner of a conservative hobby. Still, disheartening.
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Exactly. We don't want one AP of support, then get abandoned for other things. I'd really like to see more products that "rattles the cages" as it will. Not replacing traditional modules and APs, but also not swept aside for them. I still have faith in Paizo for it, since Distant Worlds and Rasputin Must Die! showed that this isn't just a niche thing (as many would have you believe).
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I believe at lot of hangs on how good Iron Gods will be. Jade Regent, while not a bad AP at all, didn't really manage to get me excited about Dragon Empires (mostly because it spends half the AP away from Tian Xia).
Iron Gods dodges that bullet by getting us there and right away. And the author lineup is sweet. And Space Goddess Crystal is writing the final adventure. And the stars are right.
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I believe at lot of hangs on how good Iron Gods will be. Jade Regent, while not a bad AP at all, didn't really manage to get me excited about Dragon Empires (mostly because it spends half the AP away from Tian Xia).
Iron Gods dodges that bullet by getting us there and right away. And the author lineup is sweet. And Space Goddess Crystal is writing the final adventure. And the stars are right.
Yeah, I am a little sad about how the momentum to Tian Xia lost steam after Jade Regent. At least we got some good modules in there. I just really would love to see more of the other countries fleshed out. Especially the non-traditional ones you don't see in RPGs, like the ones based on SE Asian culture. Anti-weeaboos be damned!
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So, except for Iron Gods AP and Distant Worlds, is there any other Paizo campaign stuff you actually like? Or is most of their stuff "turbo conservative" rubbish designed to please "rabid traditionalist fans"?Yeah, the constant "It's just one AP! And we won't be publishing just science-fantasy stuff during these 6 months! And the next AP will be traditional fantasy! And the one after that! Promise!" feels like a band that released a conceptual album and now tries to placate the rabid traditionalists fans so that they won't go away.
Sure, you gotta make money for living and this is a turbo conservative corner of a conservative hobby. Still, disheartening.
Rasputin Must Die! clearly ;)
No joke, though, that was probably one of the most well-written adventures of 2013. Even people that thought Paizo jumped the shark on that were like "Damn, that was pretty good".
As for the "rabid, traditionalist fans" comment, while it is hyperbole, it's sadly kind of true. Look through the forums and compare how many "Give us Numeria" topics there are vs "Don't ruin our fantasy with tech" and you'll see that more often than not, it's the traditional people making the fuss. Not us. Tian Xia was proof of that. So much vitriol and borderline racism in those topics. In fact, pretty much any time Paizo does something that is a divergence from the tradition, it brings on the waves of naysayers wary that their ideal fantasy setting is suddenly in peril.
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Yeah, I am a little sad about how the momentum to Tian Xia lost steam after Jade Regent. At least we got some good modules in there. I just really would love to see more of the other countries fleshed out.
Which is sad. I'd love to see more done with Tian Xia; fantasy doesn't have to be just psuedo-western Europe. Fleshing out the continent was a great idea, and left me craving more. Really hope Paizo goes against the grain and gives us one starting out there.
Fantasy should be like assorted nuts - variety and choice.
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Yeah, I am a little sad about how the momentum to Tian Xia lost steam after Jade Regent. At least we got some good modules in there. I just really would love to see more of the other countries fleshed out.Which is sad. I'd love to see more done with Tian Xia; fantasy doesn't have to be just psuedo-western Europe. Fleshing out the continent was a great idea, and left me craving more. Really hope Paizo goes against the grain and gives us one starting out there.
Fantasy should be like assorted nuts - variety and choice.
Exactly. And people that wanted an Asian setting had to deal with these type of threads and comments.
"Great, we gotta deal with these weeabo settings that don't belong in a western setting."
"Why cant we have a separate setting for this? I don't want ninjas / samurai stretching my disbelief in a traditional western setting."
"If I wanted samurai , I'd play Legend of the Five Rings. "
And thus the cycle repeats itself. Because apparently people aren't allowed to have fun with options another person doesn't like.
my brothers are all highly liberal when it comes to the real world but crazy conservative when it comes to RPGs, even the Clockworks and Aliens in the bestiaries is too much for them, so yes Gamers are notoriously RPG conservative (at least up here:) they like everything compartmentalized and separated from each other ("ah man, i got Tech in my Fantasy, Eww!")
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Actually, the vitriol against Iron Gods is kind of heartening. I grew up in the era when AD&D was the Devil's Game and roleplaying was Evil. But now people with a conservative mindset that dislike change (ie, the philosophical definition, not the political one) are so into fantasy roleplaying that they spring to the defense of the "norm" for their views of fantasy.
We won, guys. We prevailed against the Bible Belt who didn't see that RPGs are a method of developing teamwork skills and working to overcome obstacles as a group. And while there may be holdouts here and there, if we won the conservative consumer, then there is nothing those holdouts can do about this because conservative consumers will resist THEM. :)
As for the resistance to alternative game settings? This is why Paizo does a six-month AP. Because after six months of an AP someone doesn't like, they can go back to a more traditional setting. (Though this might also suggest an 8-4 system might work better - with the 8-issue AP being traditional and running to level 20 - perhaps with Slow Advancement - while the 4-issue AP goes to regions and sub-genres people are less enthused about, using the Fast Advancement list, and probably reaching level 14 or 15.)
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No, useful knowledge spreads. Unless people actively keep it secret. A lot of technology is a lot less useful in a world with magic, and given magic being only able to be used or known by certain people magical knowledge is much easier to keep secret.Additionally...with the exception of Alkenstar (which is isolated and secretive), the technology differences in most nearby nations are borderline non-existent. You can buy Full Plate most places in Avistan, for example, and that's actually a pretty sophisticated technology.
When I say technology I mean the useful application of knowledge. In this case it can involve natural knowledge or magical knowledge.
The industrial revolution utilized mass production. That makes keeping it a secret an exercise in futility. The same isn't inherently true of other technologies.
Also, Africa wasn't using those methods for a long time afterwards. Nor Russia (though that happened quicker).
Africa and Russia for the most part either didn't have the need or ability to adopt those technologies. Though even that is a gross simplification. In general civilizations will take advantage of anything that makes life easier so long as it is feasible financially. Russia was in contact with the rest of Europe, and thus was conscious of its technology disadvantage. Hence why it was so keen on modernizing as fast as possible. The braindrain that accompanied the slave trade in Africa was in part caused by Europeans arming the leaders most willing to sell them slaves. These arms being far in excess of any technology other groups led to the most violent slavery inclined coastal leaders having dominance.
Uh...they do that. There's actually a fair bit of discussion about how neighboring areas interact in most cases. Ustalav's border with Belkzen is discussed, as is the nearness of the Worldwound to Numeria. And so on and so forth.
Their really isn't enough. The problem is that everyone still seems to be discrete static cultures. Belkzen has remained Belkzen since the orcs got driven out of the Darklands. Their culture has changed and evolved due to changing circumstances and outsider influence. Orcs have always been orcs and there is no indication that they will ever change. You'd think that given how limited their raiding targets are by location and combat strength they would at least adopt a more sustainable culture and economy. More violent feudal warlords, less wandering savages.
How are Galt or Nex/Geb especially problematic? Ditto the Worldwound, I suppose, though that one I can see some issues with a bit better.
Galt's endless revolution is really really silly. Each time a revolution happens it should logically take up a huge amount of resources and manpower such that it's impossible for them to be sustained. It also strains belief that none of Galt's neighbors have really taken advantage of the situation. The only real way to rationalize it is to say the revolutions only affect the capitol and the peasants keep the upper class afloat enough to keep killing each other.
The Worldwound simply put should dominate the cultural mind of literally every nation it is near. If there was a constantly active volcano occupying the entirety of Belgium it would mean that every European culture would be in some way centered around the movements of that volcano. How ash clouds moved, warning of pyroclastic flows etc. The Worldwound only really comes up as a big deal, aside form the Worldwound book itself, in the Numeria book of all places where a sizable minority of the population in some areas are veterans of the Worldwound suffering PTSD. Think how America was influenced by WW2 despite not having its own land on the front lines. That is how Numeria, Lastwall, Ustalav, Razmiran, Belkzen, and the Mammoth Lords should be. There are enemies who will kill them for no reason with the ability to teleport at will practically on their doorstep.
Nex and Geb are both problematic because they have an enormous technology (magic) advantage over everyone around them. Logically even the scraps of such powerful magic should greatly influence nearby nations. Katapesh should for example have at the very least mass produced low level wants and potions for everyday living.
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Why do these nations not impact one another to as great an extent?
Transportation and infrastructure.
If you have a landlocked nation or region (like the Worldwound), especially one that is actively blocked from without or within (Worldwound or Numeria), then it will have a lesser impact outside the immediate region.
People in Varisia or Chelix have minimal care about a demonic invasion in the Worldwound because it's contained. Let those other people handle it. They have more important things to worry about that are more local.
And every so often a Crusade is called against the Demons of the Worldwound and those people who DO worry go off and travel a couple of years to reach the Worldwound and very rarely return. There is no post office or the like. If someone sent a letter back home via merchant, if the letter did reach it would take a year or more to get there because it's not a priority.
There are no cars. There are no highways. There are roads within nations but most of these are dirt roads that turn to mud when it rains. If you travel off the roads you risk bandits and worse killing you. And magic costs money, so there are no magical teleport networks outside of the elvish lands and a couple nations with powerful wizards in positions of power... and even those tend to be localized networks.
There are no (or few) printing presses as well, so really if you want news it's done word-of-mouth by bards and the like.
In short, this ain't a contemporary fantasy setting, despite one area with robots and destroyed spaceships. And areas you'd expect to have the greatest effect on outside nations are landlocked, and often have social tendencies that discourage travel and extroversion.
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When I say technology I mean the useful application of knowledge. In this case it can involve natural knowledge or magical knowledge.
Okay. That doesn't really address my main point (which is that most of the useful stuff seems to spread...and a lot of magic is actively kept secret making it spreading slower quite reasonable), though.
Africa and Russia for the most part either didn't have the need or ability to adopt those technologies. Though even that is a gross simplification. In general civilizations will take advantage of anything that makes life easier so long as it is feasible financially. Russia was in contact with the rest of Europe, and thus was conscious of its technology disadvantage. Hence why it was so keen on modernizing as fast as possible. The braindrain that accompanied the slave trade in Africa was in part caused by Europeans arming the leaders most willing to sell them slaves. These arms being far in excess of any technology other groups led to the most violent slavery inclined coastal leaders having dominance.
Right. But those are explanations, not denials that technological spread can be hampered by various factors. Which was the point I was making, since the 'low-tech' nations on Golarion mostly have such rationales. There's basically no nation that's vastly worse technologically 'just because'. There are always reasons if you take a moment and examine things.
Their really isn't enough. The problem is that everyone still seems to be discrete static cultures. Belkzen has remained Belkzen since the orcs got driven out of the Darklands. Their culture has changed and evolved due to changing circumstances and outsider influence. Orcs have always been orcs and there is no indication that they will ever change. You'd think that given how limited their raiding targets are by location and combat strength they would at least adopt a more sustainable culture and economy. More violent feudal warlords, less wandering savages.
Well, firstly, we don't have a Belkzen book yet, so this is a bad example, since we lack the full story. Second, going by Orcs of Golarion, several Orc warlords are doing exactly what you describe to some degree, though that's hampered by the third point, which is that as a culture, Rovagug is the primary Orcish God...and his faith actively prohibits the creation of things like farms or tools in favor of taking and destroying things. Devout Rovagug worshipers are, in fact, forbidden from making things. That's obviously more honored in the breach, but it still doesn't result in a culture conducive to settled life as farmers (which is basically required of most of the population for real feudalism).
Galt's endless revolution is really really silly. Each time a revolution happens it should logically take up a huge amount of resources and manpower such that it's impossible for them to be sustained. It also strains belief that none of Galt's neighbors have really taken advantage of the situation. The only real way to rationalize it is to say the revolutions only affect the capitol and the peasants keep the upper class afloat enough to keep killing each other.
Have you actually done research on ongoing conflicts? The Somali Civil War, just for example, has been ongoing for the last 24 years. 40 years is a long time for an ongoing reign of terror and repeated regime changes every few years, but hardly impossible. It's hideously unhealthy for the nation,of course, but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't happen.
The Worldwound simply put should dominate the cultural mind of literally every nation it is near. If there was a constantly active volcano occupying the entirety of Belgium it would mean that every European culture would be in some way centered around the movements of that volcano. How ash clouds moved, warning of pyroclastic flows etc. The Worldwound only really comes up as a big deal, aside form the Worldwound book itself, in the Numeria book of all places where a sizable minority of the population in some areas are veterans of the Worldwound suffering PTSD. Think how America was influenced by WW2 despite not having its own land on the front lines. That is how Numeria, Lastwall, Ustalav, Razmiran, Belkzen, and the Mammoth Lords should be. There are enemies who will kill them for no reason with the ability to teleport at will practically on their doorstep.
Uh...the Demons are, for the most part, bound behind the Wardstones. They are literally incapable of actually coming across said stones in any significant numbers. Which makes this comparison highly faulty. It's like having a vaguely nearby warzone, or a large prison near your neighborhood, more than it is an active volcano...in the short term anyway.
It's not that the Worldwound isn't a big deal, it is, but it's not a day to day threat or something that everyone necessarily has family and friends going to fight in. Which makes, say, Mexico a better country to talk about in terms of WW2 than the US. At least, unless you're talking about Lastwall.
Nex and Geb are both problematic because they have an enormous technology (magic) advantage over everyone around them. Logically even the scraps of such powerful magic should greatly influence nearby nations. Katapesh should for example have at the very least mass produced low level wants and potions for everyday living.
Nex and Geb themselves don't have mass produced Wands and Potions for everyday living. And Katapesh is one of the most magical places on the map (given it's rep as the place to trade for all things in the Inner Sea...including magical ones, and the use of wishcraft there, and the city being guarded by unique magical guardians)...aside from Nex, Geb,and Jalmeray. So there totally is some spillage there.
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There is also no economies of scale for magic items such as scrolls, potions, or other items.
Why don't you see lots of level 0 and level 1 potions for everyday use? Because a level 0 potion costs 12.5 gold to make, while a level 1 potion costs 25 gold to make... and are sold for twice that. This price doesn't go down whether you are making one potion or 1,000. It remains the same.
So a Potion of Cure Light Wounds costs two months wages, assuming the person has a salary of 30 gold a month (ie, 1 gold a day). A potion of Cure Disease? 750 gold, or basically two years salary assuming that person saved every single penny.
Magic is only for the rich and adventurers, really, with some squirreled away by religious groups. The "potions" that are given to ordinary people are cheap booze, coloring, and a few "special ingredients" and often sold for 5 or so gold (depending on how good a con artist the seller is). And heaven help if you have something that requires a wide-scale magical use, like a town full of folk who stupidly had a tattoo added that will be used by a villain to harvest power from them at a specific time (no spoilers for those aware of what I speak!).
And heaven help if you have something that requires a wide-scale magical use, like a town full of folk who stupidly had a tattoo added that will be used by a villain to harvest power from them at a specific time (no spoilers for those aware of what I speak!).
Wenatchee rules!
Yeah, the constant "It's just one AP! And we won't be publishing just science-fantasy stuff during these 6 months! And the next AP will be traditional fantasy! And the one after that! Promise!" feels like a band that released a conceptual album and now tries to placate the rabid traditionalists fans so that they won't go away.
I like conceptual albums!
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You know what? I'm kind of a traditionalist. I like my fantasy to be classic "whatever D&D was."
Still, if suspension of disbelief includes plate mail blocking arrows and bullets as effectively as swords, you can deal with new technology not being as good at world domination/proliferation as you'd expect it to be.
I mean, it's not like they're going to design an adventure where some guy in full plate mail armor is able to make his standing 10 foot jump across a moat full of acid.
Given all the vitriol aimed at all the chocolate-in-my-peanut-butter stuff, I really kind of hope it winds up culminating in the party battling an insane AI commanding legions of clones in reflec armor.
I mean, it's not like they're going to design an adventure where some guy in full plate mail armor is able to make his standing 10 foot jump across a moat full of acid.
Is that sarcasm? Because a fighter of at least 7th level with mithril full plate and armor training to allow movement at full speed, who has invested ranks into acrobatics could quite possibly do that.
Okay. That doesn't really address my main point (which is that most of the useful stuff seems to spread...and a lot of magic is actively kept secret making it spreading slower quite reasonable), though.
Magic being a secret seems hard to accept given the nature of secrets and people in general. Unless we're working off Black Company d20 rules or Words of Power magic is predictable and in discrete units. Each time a magical discovery is made and available to the public it works 100% of the time and can be spread infinitely. This is doubly important because everyone save barbarians can read and write (even commoners).
Right. But those are explanations, not denials that technological spread can be hampered by various factors. Which was the point I was making, since the 'low-tech' nations on Golarion mostly have such rationales. There's basically no nation that's vastly worse technologically 'just because'. There are always reasons if you take a moment and examine things.
Most of the tech problems I'm talking about still concern the practical application of magic and culture to everyday lives rather than non-magical technology. Though the weird technology stasis of the continent in general extends to non-magical technology as well.
Have you actually done research on ongoing conflicts? The Somali Civil War, just for example, has been ongoing for the last 24 years. 40 years is a long time for an ongoing reign of terror and repeated regime changes every few years, but hardly impossible. It's hideously unhealthy for the nation,of course, but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't happen.
I thought the Galt revolution had been going on for 70 years. Even so one would expect the modern Galtese to be less French revolutionaries and something far more desperate. The nature of the conflict should have changed over those successive years. It isn't the fact that the conflict is going on that long period that is silly so much the fact that it's method of continuing is static.
Uh...the Demons are, for the most part, bound behind the Wardstones. They are literally incapable of actually coming across said stones in any significant numbers. Which makes this comparison highly faulty. It's like having a vaguely nearby warzone, or a large prison near your neighborhood, more than it is an active volcano...in the short term anyway.
It's not that the Worldwound isn't a big deal, it is, but it's not a day to day threat or something that everyone necessarily has family and friends going to fight in. Which makes, say, Mexico a better country to talk about in terms of WW2 than the US. At least, unless you're talking about Lastwall.
The US only had an attack on its soil once throughout the war. Before the world stone were erected one would assume demons were teleporting all over the place. That sort of trauma should leave lasting scars on nations. Unless demons just don't use their infinitely superior mobility in the war on humans. Hence why I was thinking it comparable. Europe and China in the analogy being people actually at the Worldwound.
in Pathfinder barbarians arent illiterate Alex:) dont need to nitpick just thought you'd want to know:) good discussion! Fun stuff
There is also no economies of scale for magic items such as scrolls, potions, or other items.
Why don't you see lots of level 0 and level 1 potions for everyday use? Because a level 0 potion costs 12.5 gold to make, while a level 1 potion costs 25 gold to make... and are sold for twice that. This price doesn't go down whether you are making one potion or 1,000. It remains the same.
So a Potion of Cure Light Wounds costs two months wages, assuming the person has a salary of 30 gold a month (ie, 1 gold a day). A potion of Cure Disease? 750 gold, or basically two years salary assuming that person saved every single penny.
Magic is only for the rich and adventurers, really, with some squirreled away by religious groups. The "potions" that are given to ordinary people are cheap booze, coloring, and a few "special ingredients" and often sold for 5 or so gold (depending on how good a con artist the seller is). And heaven help if you have something that requires a wide-scale magical use, like a town full of folk who stupidly had a tattoo added that will be used by a villain to harvest power from them at a specific time (no spoilers for those aware of what I speak!).
The D&D economy is something that has never made sense and trying to justify a setting point with it leads to even more silly things to consider. The cost of a magic sword can equal that of several thousand weeks wages of normal soldiers. The diamonds required to ressurect someone increase whenever the price of diamonds goes down relative to the price of gold.
So basically what's being said is that either the prices of needed materials are constant with respect to gold period, in which case you just need to crash the gold economy with inflation to make everything affordable. The other possibility is that these prices are an abstraction and could be lowered in theory with higher volume/more developed infrastructure. Either way one would think that after a few thousand years of these spells existing most unchanged at least one nation would mass produce magic items or advance technology to out compete all the stagnant nations. If nonmagical technology is slowed down by magic then magic must be practical. If magic isn't practical there is no reason for it to slow the development of nonmagical technology.
Viva the people, down with the wealth by level tyranny.
in Pathfinder barbarians arent illiterate Alex:) dont need to nitpick just thought you'd want to know:) good discussion! Fun stuff
Holy butts I missed that. My barbarian deserves to more skill points. I'll have to tell him next session.
I see we've been moved...
in Pathfinder barbarians arent illiterate Alex:) dont need to nitpick just thought you'd want to know:) good discussion! Fun stuffHoly butts I missed that. My barbarian deserves to more skill points. I'll have to tell him next session.
I think its great myself, makes them seem less primative and more of an anger problem:) twas one of the selling points for my switch to Pathfinder from 3.5
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I think its great myself, makes them seem less primative and more of an anger problem:) twas one of the selling points for my switch to Pathfinder from 3.5
A little bit closer to returning to OD&D "must be lawful" barbarians. You know from when my rose tinted glasses tell me D&D was perfect.
You need casters but NPC class adepts are also casters. Admittedly this all goes slower if you dont have dedicated crafting classes like artificer and magewright, but having casters occupying a niche of too rare to mass produce but too common for non-magical progress seems a bit unlikely. It'd require willful ignorance on the part of rulers to the plight of their people or for everyone in power to be the low end of neutral to evil.
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Back to the OP. I'm putting my annoying 2 copper pieces in and saying that unless you are absolutely canon obsessed, just take out what doesn't fit to you. I know that in doing this it creates a huge hole that needs to be filled with your own creations. But due to the kitchen sink-esque nature of standard fantasy settings that need diversity to appeal to as many players as possible, it ends up as your only choice. Leaving currently un-used portions of the world vague may work for your campaign style as well. I'm a crazy geek who stays up nights writing semi useless content for my campaigns, so I do add on material even if I AM keeping all of the canon game world content. Own the setting and play what you like.
While I don't like it either, I completely understand why it's done. Paizo has created an amazing and versatile world and the work that's going into all off the supplements and books is worth it for ideas alone even if you don't take it straight as written. I get cranky and snotty about it at times, but it's kind of what you'll deal with in most published fantasy setting. Diversity sells and sometimes it seems that more originality doesn't. Look at all of the more original concept worlds and settings gathering dust on game shop shelves to see what I mean. Weird but true.
I promise that you won't go to jail for breaking canon in your own game =D
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Going back to the Worldwound for a second, the demons actually did not invade outward initially. The first invasion was of lower-rank demons, and I don't think many of them have Teleport Without Error. For that matter, the Demons may not know about Chelix or Taldor or other regions, so how could they teleport to someplace they don't even know exists? So they might teleport to things they can see - like towns and villages - and not spread out into other countries. Or far into other countries. Why travel far when all the mayhem you want and desire is right close to the Worldwound, after all?
They were there for a fight and got it. They were pushed back. And then the second wave pushed out further... but the demons got so sucked into fighting the immediately-available crusaders (and civilians still in the region) that they got caught unawares by the creation of the Wardstone Barrier.
Finally, the initial breakout was 100 years prior. After 20 years, any stories about demonic invaders among humans would have been that of oldtimers (after all, 40 years old is fairly old in a fantasy/medieval setting). After 40 years only a few people who witnessed it would still be alive. The elves have their own demonic invasion to worry about, the dwarves are more concerned by orcs, halflings are busy avoiding Chelix slavers, and orcs and half-orcs have a shorter lifespan than humans.
So who's going to honestly care about the Worldwound, which was contained, two or more generations out? We're a couple generations out from the Cold War. Ask the current group of teenagers or young adults about Russia and they'll probably not care... and we're in an information society. Golarion has no global infrastructure, no global communication system, and those demons (and laser pistols and black powder guns) are in landlocked regions quite a distance away.
Back to the OP. I'm putting my annoying 2 copper pieces in and saying that unless you are absolutely canon obsessed, just take out what doesn't fit to you. I know that in doing this it creates a huge hole that needs to be filled with your own creations. But due to the kitchen sink-esque nature of standard fantasy settings that need diversity to appeal to as many players as possible, it ends up as your only choice. Leaving currently un-used portions of the world vague may work for your campaign style as well. I'm a crazy geek who stays up nights writing semi useless content for my campaigns, so I do add on material even if I AM keeping all of the canon game world content. Own the setting and play what you like.
This. This is why I enjoy kitchen sink settings, because it's a lot easier to ignore parts than to add in the ones that aren't there.
The "huge hole" isn't even really that - just don't have your adventures go to the parts of the world you don't enjoy. I never had any issues running Glantri-focused campaigns in BECMI, or ones that never entered Thyatis or Alphatia, if that wasn't the theme the game wanted. With Golarion you could quite easily pick a single region and run the entire campaign there (in fact, the APs themselves tend to do that.)
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So who's going to honestly care about the Worldwound, which was contained, two or more generations out? We're a couple generations out from the Cold War. Ask the current group of teenagers or young adults about Russia and they'll probably not care... and we're in an information society. Golarion has no global infrastructure, no global communication system, and those demons (and laser pistols and black powder guns) are in landlocked regions quite a distance away.
The whole wall situation in A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones is another good illustration - there's all sorts of crazy crap going down, but 90% of the continent is quite happily ignorant of it and disregards anything they hear as exaggerated tales.
... That's pretty much my point for people who complain that "we need more traditional APs" or "Pathfinder is becoming too genre inclusive". This AP isn't the end of traditional modules. Rather, this AP is a bone thrown to those of us that want something more. Something different and exciting that sparks the imagination and isn't tied down to the fantasy tropes we see in every video game, book, and movie. ...
I think that one of my points wasn't communicated very well, it's not that I'm arguing directly against a sci-fantasy setting or adventure, it's that I'm not convinced it needs to exist in the exact same world as the rest of the variant fantasy settings.
As for arguing well we can avoid this if we don't like it, well no, we can't if you play in the PFS. Eventually giant robots, or laser swords or death rays will make an appearance at a PFS table and for me, personally that is an issue for stretching my disbelief. Yes mechanically it's likely to be no different to magical or alchemical items but the trappings and appearance of it will just not feel right sitting alongside a traditional fantasy warrior or wizard.
Trying to support more than one setting is difficult. The gameworld is not made just for PFS so otherwise the idea to remove it is there.
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The whole wall situation in A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones is another good illustration - there's all sorts of crazy crap going down, but 90% of the continent is quite happily ignorant of it and disregards anything they hear as exaggerated tales.
A good point - also speaking of ASoIF, other regions such as Yi Ti and Assahai are mentioned, but seldom have much to do with the story.
Garund in Golarions can work the same way.
In a ASoIaF you also have far fewer culture groups all of which bleed into each other with plenty of transitional room between the absolutes. In Westeros you had Wildings, Northerners, Southerners, and Dornish. Sure you have subgroups, but you can clearly see how they all influenced each other and where migrations happened. Garund and Tian Xia are not the problem, or rather it isn't a problem that they are really different than Avistan. The problem are how different yet limited nations right next to each other are. Cheliax as a nation (meaning people self identify as Cheliax not necessarily an independent country) has existed for more than 1600 years. Yet the only concrete societal change we know about them is adopting devil worship and declaring independence from Taldor. Changes that massive should come at least every hundred years. Hell languages usually don't even last that long let alone nations.
Don't get me wrong I like Golarion for all its warts and issues. The way I like it though is as a source of really really cool individual ideas rather than as a whole. The whole is too old and too little melting pot for me to take seriously.