Over-the-top cinematic action


Homebrew and House Rules


I was thinking the other day (a dangerous habit, I know) and it occurred to me that it wouldn't be too hard to use PF rules for genres based on full-blown, cinematic fighting instead of generic fantasy. I'm thinking of things like wuxia (kung fu) or chanbara (samurai) movies, or for a more western setting, many of the medieval romances, or pirate/swashbuckling movies. I would probably set it up something like this:

Races: Human only. Those genres don't often include any other races, except occasionally as monsters.

Classes: Any non-caster. In most cases if spell casters exist in the world at all, they serve as opponents not protagonists. Medieval settings would allow Barbarian, Brawler, Cavalier, Fighter, Ranger (Skirmisher archetype only), Rogue, and Slayer. Asian settings also add Monk, Ninja, and Samurai. Pirates add Swashbuckler and possibly Gunslinger (although I don't remember seeing any iconic characters that specialize in firearms). Multiclassing is encouraged in any genre: in wuxia and chanbara settings, for example, nearly everybody seems to have at least a few levels of Monk.

Magic Items: Generally only exist as plot devices - either ancient relics that must be returned to their rightful owners or evil artifacts that need to be destroyed. It would be unusual for a party to have even one magic item that they get to keep. Alchemical items and materials don't exist.

Wealth: Character starting wealth and WBL are thrown out, and party funds are not tracked. In the action genres, characters always seem to have enough money to support whatever lifestyle they're accustomed to, whether that be a castle and full armor or nothing but a begging bowl and a saffron robe. The character's wealth doesn't ever seem to change as a result of adventuring. Even successful pirates never seem to get any richer!

Opponents: Almost all of the enemies the heroes face are human. Without magic and alchemical materials available to the PCs, monsters become truly terrifying opponents that can only be beaten through strategy and careful planning. Therefore, they are reserved for very special circumstances. The Big Bad might be a spellcaster or (rarely) a monster, but nearly everybody else is a martial class.

The lack of magic will also affect the spacing of encounters, although not necessarily the pace of the game. (Time the characters spend healing doesn't have to be played out, although it can sometimes be used for investigation, problem solving, and/or interaction.) Running a gauntlet of low-level minions to get to the Big Bad is much more of a nail-biter if the PCs don't have any healing magic!

The end result is certainly not what D&D/PF has traditionally been, but I think it could be a very interesting change of pace.


Pathfinder's combat system is possibly the least "cinematic" in the entire TRPG industry right now. There are at least a dozen other systems that would serve any of these kinds of games better than Pathfinder.

Wuxia/Chanbara: Legends of the Wulin, Exalted, Legend of the Five Rings, Tenra Bansho Zero

Medieval Romance: (Surprisingly) A Song of Ice and Fire RPG is fantastic for this.

Pirate/Swashbuckling: 7th Sea was made for this.

There are plenty of cinematic games out there. Pathfinder does what it does with an acceptable level of competence, but if there is one style it isn't modeled for, it's cinematic.

The Exchange

I will (as I do every time this kind of campaign is suggested) recommend looking up Iron Heroes before you risk replicating a lot of work that's already been done for you.

Good luck.

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I was about to recommend Rule of Cool's Legend system, but then I read your post.

I think we have very different definitions of "over-the-top cinematic action".


I'd try Savage Worlds or Feng Shui.

PF could be made to work, sort of (though it would be clunky) if you made skills a lot more effective. But I think you'd be spending a lot of effort to make something inferior.


Neurophage wrote:
There are plenty of cinematic games out there. Pathfinder does what it does with an acceptable level of competence, but if there is one style it isn't modeled for, it's cinematic.

??? I'd say the ONLY thng PF does is cinematic.

The 8th level monk in the NPC Codex can kill a grizzly bear in one round with just his hands. That same monk has both a better AC than the bear and more hit points. A 5th level barbarian can't be flanked. At 16th level, a barbarian is immune to daggers wielded by ordinary people of average strength. At 20th level, a fighter can't be disarmed when using their chosen weapon. Then there are all those classes that have magic. I can't even imagine how you'd use PF to play ordinary humans in a realistic world (I wouldn't try, actually; I'd use GURPS for that).


Lincoln Hills wrote:

I will (as I do every time this kind of campaign is suggested) recommend looking up Iron Heroes before you risk replicating a lot of work that's already been done for you.

Good luck.

I will look that up, thanks.

However, I think all the work has already been done, rules wise. I'd still need to do the world building and adventure design, but I'd have to do that for any game. (I never use published game worlds, although I frequently mine them for ideas.)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

people in RL never get higher than lvl 3-4 at best. that's why a lvl 8 monk can kill a grizzly bear.

btw, I wouldn't limit classes by culture, the class generates mechanics, but you don't have to follow the fluff around it. a rogue-ish character could mechanically be a fighter, as armor expert allows him to sneak it heavier armor easier, etc.


Bandw2 wrote:
btw, I wouldn't limit classes by culture, the class generates mechanics, but you don't have to follow the fluff around it. a rogue-ish character could mechanically be a fighter, as armor expert allows him to sneak it heavier armor easier, etc.

That's a good point. Regardless of character class, everybody can still be considered knights, or ronin, or Shaolin monks, or whatever is appropriate to the setting.


JoeJ wrote:
Neurophage wrote:
There are plenty of cinematic games out there. Pathfinder does what it does with an acceptable level of competence, but if there is one style it isn't modeled for, it's cinematic.

??? I'd say the ONLY thng PF does is cinematic.

The 8th level monk in the NPC Codex can kill a grizzly bear in one round with just his hands. That same monk has both a better AC than the bear and more hit points. A 5th level barbarian can't be flanked. At 16th level, a barbarian is immune to daggers wielded by ordinary people of average strength. At 20th level, a fighter can't be disarmed when using their chosen weapon. Then there are all those classes that have magic. I can't even imagine how you'd use PF to play ordinary humans in a realistic world (I wouldn't try, actually; I'd use GURPS for that).

8th level is near the end of the level range that usually sees play. I should certainly hope that a character who's nearly halfway through the entire game's level range can 1v1 a regular bear without too much trouble.

In comparison, a starting combat-focused character in 7th Sea or ASoIaFRPG can handle five or six warriors without breaking a sweat. A starting TBZ character could wade into dozens of ashigaru, ninja or even mechs and come out the other side with barely a scratch. And don't get me started on Exalted.

In any case, cinematic style isn't about the strength of abilities. It's about how the tone is represented. For example: In Pathfinder, defense is a passive value. By the time your AC matters, there isn't anything you can do to increase it. You just have to hope that what you did to increase it before you got attacked is enough. In basically all of the other games I mentioned, defense is an active value. When you're attacked, you choose how you respond. In Exalted, you could dodge out of the way of an incoming attack, parry it with your sword or even knock it aside with your fingers. Even after you get it, how hard you get hit can often be up to you. In TBZ, you automatically counter every time you're attacked. It wouldn't be unusual for a dozen ninja to jump you only for all of them to be dropped mid-attack in a single flurry of sword swings.

In-all, cinematic is usually about style-over-substance. Mechanics support the visuals almost as much as the other way around. Above all, cinematic style is sometimes about automatically dropping everyone in the room just because you're a protagonist and they're walking scenery. Pathfinder does plenty of things well, but cinematic style isn't one of them.


I think we have different ideas of what "cinematic" means. To me, an unarmed human of any level killing a grizzly at all is pretty cinematic. Doing it in six seconds is extremely cinematic. In a realistic game, an unarmed character of any level would be doing extremely well just to survive a fight with a grizzly; they wouldn't win.


Hey JoeJ,

I just wanted to toss my two cents in and say that your idea sounds really cool!

While I understand where other people are coming from (and heartily suggest you check out some of those games as they are fantastic), in my experience cinematic combat really comes down to player involvement and/or interest. I have run games of Pathfinder where my players were into describing their in combat actions and it gave even simple fights a more grandiose feel. [I have also had games where combat was basically 'uhh...I attack the orc, I guess.'] On the other hand, I remember running Exalted for a group of relatively new players and the cinematic potential of the system was lost as people fumbled with the rules.

One thing you might want to incorporate - or at least consider - is some kind of stunt bonus for describing really cool/exciting/daring maneuvers. (I know Exalted has a system like this.) This might help offset some of the penalties that characters incur while doing the more ridiculous kung fu stunts. I am not sure what this bonus would be or, indeed, if it would upset the math behind the system too much to be functional. It is just a thought.


JoeJ wrote:

I think we have different ideas of what "cinematic" means. To me, an unarmed human of any level killing a grizzly at all is pretty cinematic. Doing it in six seconds is extremely cinematic. In a realistic game, an unarmed character of any level would be doing extremely well just to survive a fight with a grizzly; they wouldn't win.

Let's get away from the bear example, because it doesn't really illustrate either of our positions that well. The dichotomy isn't between "realistic" and "cinematic." Something doesn't have to be cinematic to be unrealistic. The difference isn't the deed done or the ease with which it was done, but how the deed is presented.

Let's take one of the iconic scenes representing chanbara: A lone swordsman walks through a misty forest at twilight. Silent and stoic, the only sounds in the scene are the air blowing through the leaves, the grass beneath the swordsman's feet, and the sword rattling in its sheath. Suddenly, the bushes rustle and a dozen shadows leap at the swordsman from the underbrush. Undaunted, the swordsman's hand floats over the hilt of his sword, and his thumb eases the blade out. The screen goes black, a dozen lines of light flash across the screen in just under two seconds. The swordsman stands, exactly where he was before, his sword in hand, surrounded by stunned ninja. Slowly, the swordsman returns his sword to its sheath. Just as the blade clicks in place, each of the ninja collapses, blood spraying from the wounds they hadn't even realized they'd received. The swordsman, offering little more than a nod of his head to the grisly scene, continues his walk through the misty forest.

In a game like Pathfinder, this kind of scene is impossible. Without a feat like Whirlwind Attack, there is just no way to get off all of these attacks simultaneously or even that quickly. This might seem like a simple fix: Just take Whirlwind Attack. Whirlwind Attack has four prerequisite feats, and half of those are useless to the kind of character who would want to do this kind of thing in the first place. This kind of thing is definitely out of the reach of a starting character. This cinematic scene, which is a staple of chanbara films and has served as the establishing moment of many a Japanese swordsman, cannot be accomplish gracefully by Pathfinder's ruleset. Taking out all of these guys at once would require a minimum of six turns (assuming the use of Cleave, assuming every attack hits, assuming every ninja drops in one attack). During those six turns, every ninja would also get a chance to attack the character. Given how flanking works, and how vulnerable starting characters are, this would likely result in the character dying horribly.

Exalted has a Charm (application of your character's superpowers) called Peony Blossom Attack. Its effect is simple: Make one attack roll and apply it to everyone within three yards of you. Given the rules for how Extras (more or less mooks) work, all of these ninja would explode in a shower of blood after a single attack roll. This Charm's prerequisites are so simple to achieve that picking it up at character generation can be almost an afterthought. In fact, if our Exalted swordsman also picked up a Charm called Hungry Tiger Technique and combined it with Peony Blossom Attack, those ninja don't even need to be Extras. They could be the most well-trained mortals in the entire world and they would still die in that one attack. Things don't get complicated until you start fighting other Exalted (Chosen Ones).

Tenra Bansho Zero, as mentioned above, has a rule that defending against an attack is automatically a counter attack. A swordsman in that game doesn't even need to get a turn before dispatching all dozen of those ninja. Again, this deed is so simple to accomplish at character generation that you may well accomplish it by accident.

Compared to Pathfinder, which will require a dozen dice rolls to accomplish this iconic "cinematic" event, both of these games get it done with a single roll of a dice pool. No muss, no fuss.

If something that is iconic of cinema cannot be accomplished in a game without a bunch of paperwork and wasted time, the game is not well-suited to being cinematic. It's just the way things are.

Edit: Fixed a typo

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Neurophage nails it. Unrealistic (or beyond real world human ability) doesn't necessarily mean cinematic.

Pathfinder is not a very good system for the cool stunts that most people consider cinematic, but it is a good system for 2-handed weapon power attacks dropping impressive foes.

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