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The Fox: That won't work at my table, no.
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Seth, the difference is that GM credit can be held on an unformed blob of PC, while player credit cannot. If someone plays before August 14th, she has indicated what race the character is. If someone runs a game, he hasn't necessarily done so.
So, let's say it's July, and your wife plays a human rogue for two sessions. You've GMed both of those sessions. Away from the table, she then rebuilds the character as a Tiefling, but doesn't play again until September. You also assign that GM credit to a PC you haven't yet played, but which you're imagining is either going to be a half-orc or a Tiefling.
August comes and goes. In September, which of you can start playing a Tiefling without a race boon?
I think the rule should require one player-XP to set the character as the chosen plane-touched race before the August 14th deadline.
That seems perfectly reasonable to me, though I dont know if that is how Mike or John are going to work it into the Guide. :/
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Let me also mention that the intent is to allow people who want to play Aasimar's and Tieflings to be able to have a chance to make one before the cut off. The intent isn't to have people have multiple blobs of unplayed, 1xp, credit so that they can have teiflings and Aasimars as playable options until the end of days.
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[So "1 XP" does mean "1 XP of player credit" after all!
If the campaign staff wanted to be that strict they could have ruled that the character had to be played at second level or higher. The ruling is 1xp, so that GM's can make Aasimars/Tieflings as well as players can.
If your character, GM or Player was an Aasimar or Tiefling before the deadline then it can stay one after. If it wasn't before please don't retrain into on after the deadline.
This is an honor system thing, and PFS doesn't really gain anything from making players/GM's post what races they're characters are before the deadline.
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Actually, I have a position. I know how I'd like to see Paizo rule on this. But since they haven't given us a specific clarification, I'm waiting for it, rather than pretending I know better. The fact that there are over 50 posts debating this obviously proves that it's not as clear cut as some people are claiming.
Personally, it really doesn't affect my own characters. I'm currently in the process of building a tiefling, and I'm already signed up to play him in The Confirmation before the end of July. So it doesn't matter to my own characters one way or the other.
The only reason I'm personally interested in getting guidance on this from Paizo is because I GM, and these races are very popular locally.
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Law of Unintended Consequences in effect:
I have one character concept in mind that would be plane-touched. I have not decided on which plane-touched race, nor have I picked class, ability scores, etc. It is really a kernel of a concept.
Now I have to PLAY the character to make it legal. So I need to find a 1st-level to play at. I call my friends and we all get together on a Saturday to play Master of the Fallen Fortress. They all decide to play their character concepts too, so that they can be grandfathered in. But we need to run it twice so that the GM can get his in also.
There are six of us. For two runs, that is a total of 10 plane-touched characters that are now grandfathered in. If, on the other hand, you let each person use any 1 XP character as a plane-touched, then that is only 6 such characters. There is no pressure to hurry up and play those characters. We have now added 4 more plane-touched characters to the campaign.
This isn't excessive, either. This isn't going out and playing The Confirmation 10 times! This is a reasonable number of plays, and what I expect will be happening at lodges everywhere.
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Likewise, someone who has played 3 games as a human Kyra, and in October wants to switch over to a Tiefling Kyra. That player will be submitting his character to the GM for approval, as he performed a rebuild.
How would he notice that?He would ask.
Player: I rebuilt the character, who is just now starting Level Two. As required, I'm submitting the character for your audit.
GM: What did you change?
Player: Very little. I changed the character from a human cleric to an Aasimar cleric. I subtracted a rank in Knowledge (planes) and the Selective Channel feat. I increased her Charisma by 2, I ...
GM: It's after the cut-off date. Do you have a race boon?
Ahh. Fair enough. I've never seen anyone audit a level one rebuild, but this makes sense if you do. They can lie, of course, but then it's on them.
I won't say anything else on this, as I don't want to look like I'm advocating something I don't agree with. But I will say that I prefer my rules to be written in such a way that they are enforceable, so I would urge them not to create violations that are undetectable under most circumstances.
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[So "1 XP" does mean "1 XP of player credit" after all!If the campaign staff wanted to be that strict they could have ruled that the character had to be played at second level or higher. The ruling is 1xp, so that GM's can make Aasimars/Tieflings as well as players can.
If your character, GM or Player was an Aasimar or Tiefling before the deadline then it can stay one after. If it wasn't before please don't retrain into on after the deadline.
This is an honor system thing, and PFS doesn't really gain anything from making players/GM's post what races they're characters are before the deadline.
I agree that is the way it SHOULD work. And if it works that way, I have one or two such characters. But there are several people here who are saying that it doesn't work that way, at least not at their tables. If that is the case, and we need to play such characters to make them legal, then we are inviting "aasimar mills" to open up.
We are simply asking for clarification so that it doesn't come back and bite us in the ass later. I play at your table and you say my character is fine; I later play at Chris's table and he says that my character needs a race boon or it should be retired.
Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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Okay, I will use this post to declare that my -8 is now an aasimar and my -9 is now a tiefling. The time stamp at the top of this post should suffice.
I assume that I can use the rebuild rules to change class, abilities, feats, skills, and equipment still without need a racial boon, right?
So your -8 and -9 are Aasimar and Tieflng respectively, got it.
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The Fox: If that's the justification you're using, that won't work at my table, no. (Barring clarification from the campaign staff, of course.)
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Seth, the difference is that GM credit can be held on an unformed blob of PC, while player credit cannot. If someone plays before August 14th, she has indicated what race the character is. If someone runs a game, he hasn't necessarily done so.
So, let's say it's July, and your wife plays a human rogue for two sessions. You've GMed both of those sessions. Away from the table, she then rebuilds the character as a Tiefling, but doesn't play again until September. You also assign that GM credit to a PC you haven't yet played, but which you're imagining is either going to be a half-orc or a Tiefling.
August comes and goes. In September, which of you can start playing a Tiefling without a race boon?
I think the rule should require one player-XP to set the character as the chosen plane-touched race before the August 14th deadline.
Wait, what?
My only Tiefling is a character I fully statted out in April. She has two GM chronicles and has, in my mind, always been defined as a Tiefling.
I've never played her, and I am not expecting to have a chance to play between now and August 14. (GMing 4 times though.)
I would be *highly peeved* if I was not allowed to continue her as a Tiefling. (Especially since I *could* have played her at PaizoCon if I had known I needed to.)
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Seth, the difference is that GM credit can be held on an unformed blob of PC, while player credit cannot. If someone plays before August 14th, she has indicated what race the character is. If someone runs a game, he hasn't necessarily done so.
Not necessarily. If they play a 1st level pregen, they have a chronicle that gets attached to an unformed blob of a PC, just like a GM credit.
I'm personally not seeing any reason a chronicle before the cutoff couldn't count as an anchor for character creation. There is no built in way to actually determine when a character is created. A character can be built, played once, rebuilt, rebuilt again, scrapped, shelved, rebuilt and finally played a second time to get a second XP and repeat the process anew.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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I am not trying to be difficult or obtuse here, but in reading the plain language of what's in the blog:
"The exception is any aasimar or tielfing character with at least 1 XP; these characters are grandfathered into the campaign."
Those races aren't legal without a boon starting on August 14. That means, reading the plain language, that an aasimar or tiefling character has to have at least 1XP prior to that date. It doesn't say PLAYER XP, just one XP. And that means if a GM has a GM blob and has not made it an Aasimar or Tiefling prior to August 14, it's not going to be an aasimar or tiefling without a boon.
The language makes it clear that the aasimar or tiefling character has at least 1 XP prior to the date.
I just don't understand why this is so confusing? Where is this notion of PLAYER XP vs. GM credit coming from?
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So your -8 and -9 are Aasimar and Tieflng respectively, got it.Okay, I will use this post to declare that my -8 is now an aasimar and my -9 is now a tiefling. The time stamp at the top of this post should suffice.
I assume that I can use the rebuild rules to change class, abilities, feats, skills, and equipment still without need a racial boon, right?
Actually, just my -9. I forgot that I have played my -8 at level 2.
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We are simply asking for clarification so that it doesn't come back and bite us in the ass later. I play at your table and you say my character is fine; I later play at Chris's table and he says that my character needs a race boon or it should be retired.
I understand, but full clarification most likely won't appear (if it does appear) until the additional Resources page is updated until Gen Con.
All I can do is suggest that GM's should trust the players, because the vast majority of the player base is honest. A GM shouldn't also enforce a "must have been played" rule that doesn't exist in the blog.
Right now the ruling is trust the honor system, if John and Mike have to clarify it can only get more strict, and I don't think that better for the majority of the player base.
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And that means if a GM has a GM blob and has not made it an Aasimar or Tiefling prior to August 14, it's not going to be an aasimar or tiefling without a boon.
I can't follow your reasoning to that position, at all. The character from the confirmation that i DMed has 1 xp, as does the character from the confirmation that i played. They are both infinitely malleable characters with 1 xp on them. Why is one tiefling eligible and the other not?
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Actually, just my -9. I forgot that I have played my -8 at level 2.So your -8 and -9 are Aasimar and Tieflng respectively, got it.Okay, I will use this post to declare that my -8 is now an aasimar and my -9 is now a tiefling. The time stamp at the top of this post should suffice.
I assume that I can use the rebuild rules to change class, abilities, feats, skills, and equipment still without need a racial boon, right?
Time for a -10. :P
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At this point, I'm just going to play it safe, invite some friends over, and see how many runs of Master of the Fallen Fortress we can get in on a single Saturday. There will be pizza and beer too. I will create one character of each of those two races for that day (which I think is reasonable). If my friends want to make more, then that's their prerogative.
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The notion is coming from a desire to make sure the person didnt change after the cut off, which is reasonable.In the case of how the blog was worded, though, I agree that it is unnecessary.
If Mike and John were goign to require that kind of thing, they could have just as easily made the cap 4xp, to make sure the character is locked in on its race.
They didnt do it, and unless the Guide says something else about it indicating that IS going to be the case, no other restriction should be put on the player. If they say it was an aasimar or tiefling before the date and have at least 1xp chronicle dated before the date, you should take their word for it. That's how the honor system works.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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And that means if a GM has a GM blob and has not made it an Aasimar or Tiefling prior to August 14, it's not going to be an aasimar or tiefling without a boon.I can't follow your reasoning to that position, at all. The character from the confirmation that i DMed has 1 xp, as does the character from the confirmation that i played. They are both infinitely malleable characters with 1 xp on them. Why is one tiefling eligible and the other not?
I am saying that if those characters are aasimar or tiefling before August 14, and they each have 1XP of credit (either because you played or ran a game), they both are tiefling eligible. Did those characters have 1XP prior to august 14? And, if so, were they aasimar or tiefling before that date? Yes? Then they are both eligible.
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If Mike and John were goign to require that kind of thing, they could have just as easily made the cap 4xp, to make sure the character is locked in on its race.
In fact, they expressly didn't do that:
Well, we debated long and hard whether to require 4 XP per character, as at that point one is past the free rebuilding stage. However, we also recognized this as unnecessarily punitive to casual players who may only be able to play once or twice in the next month.
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I am saying that if those characters are aasimar or tiefling before August 14, and they each have 1XP of credit (either because you played or ran a game), they both are tiefling eligible. Did those characters have 1XP prior to august 14? And, if so, were they aasimar or tiefling before that date? Yes? Then they are both eligible.And that means if a GM has a GM blob and has not made it an Aasimar or Tiefling prior to August 14, it's not going to be an aasimar or tiefling without a boon.I can't follow your reasoning to that position, at all. The character from the confirmation that i DMed has 1 xp, as does the character from the confirmation that i played. They are both infinitely malleable characters with 1 xp on them. Why is one tiefling eligible and the other not?
Well, here's the confusion.
When is a character a tiefling? When the player takes the character sheet to the top of the mountain and chants to the lion king music? When its first played as a tiefling? When its first "solidified?"
It can't be the last one because that doesn't happen till 4 (or more) xp.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Well, here's the confusion.
When is a character a tiefling? When the player takes the character sheet to the top of the mountain and chants to the lion king music? When its first played as a tiefling? When its first "solidified?"
It can't be the last one because that doesn't happen till 4 (or more) xp.
Well, a character is what it is, unless it's rebuilt or retrained, but one cannot be rebuilt into an Aasimar or Tiefling starting on August 14th, so it's going to have be one of those before August 14.
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John and Mike were extremely generous in how open they left the grandfathering.
In the spirit if that, I'm not going to make any assumptions about what a pregen or gm credit baby really was prior to your (re)"building" it.
But if I know what your character was prior to your rebuild, and you come to my table without at least one more credit on the character that is also before August 14, and the current date us after August 14, I'll have to deny that particular rebuild.
Mike and John asked us to please respect the intent. If enough people break that trust, then they may revoke or further restrict the grandfathering.
So please let's not get overly officious or lawery about this. I for one will assume a player is on the up and up until they prove to me otherwise.
I request that all other GMs do likewise.
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Well, a character is what it is
Circular.
unless it's rebuilt or retrained, but one cannot be rebuilt into an Aasimar or Tiefling starting on August 14th, so it's going to have be one of those before August 14.
Well here's the question, when does the retraining take place? At the end of session 1? In the nebulous time between scenarios when the player does the lion king thing? When its actually played ?
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Well here's the question, when does the retraining take place? At the end of session 1? In the nebulous time between scenarios when the player does the lion king thing? When its actually played ?
Changes may only be made between adventures and before playing as a character above 1st level.
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If enough people break that trust, then they may revoke or further restrict the grandfathering.
That trust goes both directions. If a player such as pH Unbalanced comes in with a credit-baby that was raised since April to be a tiefling, but is told by the GM that it isn't a legal character without a boon, then I think it is the GM who is breaking that trust.
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Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco
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John and Mike were extremely generous in how open they left the grandfathering.
In the spirit of that, I'm not going to make any assumptions about what a pregen or gm credit baby really was prior to your (re)"building" it.
But if I know what your character was prior to your rebuild, and you come to my table without at least one more credit on the character that is also before August 14, and the current date us after August 14, I'll have to deny that particular rebuild.
Mike and John asked us to please respect the intent. If enough people break that trust, then they may revoke or further restrict the grandfathering.
So please let's not get overly officious or lawery about this. I for one will assume a player is on the up and up until they prove to me otherwise.
I request that all other GMs do likewise.
+1, my feelings as well. There's only so much policing we can realistically do here, sometimes you have to take a player's word for it. It was always expected that this flurry of "Quick, get a bunch of 1 xp credit characters!" would happen with a 30-day warning announcement, but eventually tieflings and aasimar will become less common. I have two tieflings (one built from a boon before they were freely available) and one aasimar, which is more than enough for me. I actually just played a new kitsune character built from a race boon and now everyone else can do that, too! I won't lose any sleep over it.
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If enough people break that trust, then they may revoke or further restrict the grandfathering.That trust goes both directions. If a player such as pH Unbalanced comes in with a credit-baby that was raised since April to be a tiefling, but is told by the GM that it isn't a legal character without a boon, then I think it is the GM who is breaking that trust.
Yes the trust should go both ways. Though if you don't trust your GM you may have worse problems since the have a huge amount of power.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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If enough people break that trust, then they may revoke or further restrict the grandfathering.That trust goes both directions. If a player such as pH Unbalanced comes in with a credit-baby that was raised since April to be a tiefling, but is told by the GM that it isn't a legal character without a boon, then I think it is the GM who is breaking that trust.
And this, Fox, is what I think the honor system is. If that player says, "yes, it was a Tiefling with at least 1XP before August 14," I'll just take his or her word for it, unless he or she gives me some reason to be suspect.
If I have reason to suspect on or after August 14 that the character did not meet the requirements of the grandfathering clause, then I'll ask for the chronicle sheets and other stuff. I suspect, at least for me, I'll do very little of that.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Well, a character is what it is
Circular.
That it may be, but it is nevertheless true. If you play a character in a scenario, and when you play it, you play it as a dwarf, with all of the stuff that comes with it, then it's a dwarf unless and until you change it, in accordance with the rules laid out in the Guide to Organized Play.
The rebuild happens at the time you do it. I don't know of any rule that suggests otherwise. When does a character get Feat X? At the time he or she selects it (or at the time it is awarded, say, by a class feature upon reaching the required level, or whatever.) I don't know of any circumstance where it happens before or after you do it.
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Anyone who goes "Well, your first GM credit on this character was eleven months ago, but you haven't PLAYED them yet, so you're not allowed to play as an Aasimar" is flagrantly trampling on the "don't be a jerk" rule and is imagining rules which don't exist.
The blog post simply says if the character has XP before a certain date, it's eligible. Doesn't say XP from being a player. GM credit is perfectly fine up until the point at which Paizo prints a ruling to the contrary.
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If enough people break that trust, then they may revoke or further restrict the grandfathering.That trust goes both directions. If a player such as pH Unbalanced comes in with a credit-baby that was raised since April to be a tiefling, but is told by the GM that it isn't a legal character without a boon, then I think it is the GM who is breaking that trust.And this, Fox, is what I think the honor system is. If that player says, "yes, it was a Tiefling with at least 1XP before August 14," I'll just take his or her word for it, unless he or she gives me some reason to be suspect.
If I have reason to suspect on or after August 14 that the character did not meet the requirements of the grandfathering clause, then I'll ask for the chronicle sheets and other stuff. I suspect, at least for me, I'll do very little of that.
Other than a chronicle showing the character played at least once by the cutoff, what other stuff might there actually be? I'm curious.
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They didnt do it, and unless the Guide says something else about it indicating that IS going to be the case, no other restriction should be put on the player. If they say it was an aasimar or tiefling before the date and have at least 1xp chronicle dated before the date, you should take their word for it. That's how the honor system works.
This is how it will work for me.
Yes if you bring a 3rd or 4th a/t to my table I will take a closer look, and if they all have confirmation dated July 15-August 14 I will probably assume you are not
... exercise[ing] some good taste and respect a decision made with the larger community in mind.
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That it may be, but it is nevertheless true. If you play a character in a scenario, and when you play it, you play it as a dwarf, with all of the stuff that comes with it, then it's a dwarf unless and until you change it, in accordance with the rules laid out in the Guide to Organized Play.
Which, from what Toz quoted, seems to be ANY time in between sessions, including right now for a 1st level character you played last year and has been collecting dust ever since. That effectively means that a legal aasimar is any character with an xp before august 14th because you can retrain him right now.
The rebuild happens at the time you do it.
What does x =?
X.
True. Just not very helpful.
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Any thought of making current players who already have an active tiefling not eligible for the 1 xp exemption on a new tiefling? Likewise making current players who already have an active aasimar not eligible for the 1 xp exemption on an aasimar?
The whole reason this exemption was made was for players who have not yet played these races, who have limited play opportunities, or have only recently started playing pfs?
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Any thought of making current players who already have an active tiefling not eligible for the 1 xp exemption on a new tiefling? Likewise making current players who already have an active aasimar not eligible for the 1 xp exemption on an aasimar?
The whole reason this exemption was made was for players who have not yet played these races, who have limited play opportunities, or have only recently started playing pfs?
I could possibly get behind that. But it is a topic that deserves its own thread.
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I could possibly get behind that. But it is a topic that deserves its own thread.Any thought of making current players who already have an active tiefling not eligible for the 1 xp exemption on a new tiefling? Likewise making current players who already have an active aasimar not eligible for the 1 xp exemption on an aasimar?
The whole reason this exemption was made was for players who have not yet played these races, who have limited play opportunities, or have only recently started playing pfs?
Ty, Just did that....
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Nosig's post is a perfect example of why I'm hoping Paizo will rule in favor of "let them have their loopholes".
The easiest ruling they could possibly make is "Any character with at least 1 xp before August 14, regardless of the source of that xp, or whether or not the character was rebuilt, is eligible to be an aasimar or tiefling." Then, we just wouldn't have to worry about all of these questions and debates in this thread.
The wording of the original blog post could already be interpreted that way. It could also be interpreted as meaning that the PC has to already be one of those races before August 14, so disallowing rebuilding into it. That's why we need a ruling from Paizo.
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do you run an audit on every character at every table? Do you assure the eidolon or animal companion did not get max hp at first level? Do you see a copy of the ISGW when someone casts infernal healing from a wand? Do you watch them tick off the charge when they do? Do you ask what book snowball is from when it is cast and ask to see a copy? Do you verify their copy of 'Blood of...' is watermarked? Or that they have a copy of the additional resources with them? These are all bigger abuses of the system than someone playing one more outsider in my opinion.
Whenever possible.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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do you run an audit on every character at every table? Do you assure the eidolon or animal companion did not get max hp at first level? Do you see a copy of the ISGW when someone casts infernal healing from a wand? Do you watch them tick off the charge when they do? Do you ask what book snowball is from when it is cast and ask to see a copy? Do you verify their copy of 'Blood of...' is watermarked? Or that they have a copy of the additional resources with them? These are all bigger abuses of the system than someone playing one more outsider in my opinion.Whenever possible.
We used to have a "check the last three" rule at our FLGS. At the start of a session, you take your character sheet and last three chronicles and pass them to the person on your left (excluding the GM). That person verifies your math and quickly looks everything over to make sure nothing oddball is going on.
In the month or so of participating in this, I only found people more gold on their chronicles. Overall it was well received by our players. We stopped doing it as time became shorter with Season 5, but I did like what it was trying to do—no assumption of wrongdoing, just being a good teammate and helping out with some of the paperwork.