Multiclass Alternate Method: "Experience Buy". Similar Systems exist?


Homebrew and House Rules


So, I've tinkering with an alternate method for multiclassing in Pathfinder, to potentially run a game with. I'm going to outline it, as briefly as possible, and I'm looking for general impression as to whether it could work, or whether there is something obvious I've overlooked.

Also, I'm positive I can't be the first one to think of something like this, so if you know of similar systems, please share.

First, consider the experience chart, focusing on the "Medium" column, and shift all the numbers up by one step. Characters start with 2,000 xp, then, and are thus level 1 in a class. At 5,000 xp, level 2. At 9,000, level 3, etc.

Now, consider a character with 80,000 experience. He could be level 8 in one class. Or, under this system, he could "split" that experience between up to three base classes. (Pretend prestige classes do not exist for the moment). Thus, he could be a Wizard 8, or he could be, say, a Wizard 6 / Fighter 6 (because 6th level costs 35,000xp x2 = 70,000xp, which is less than his 80,000).

Now, here's the kicker: if he has more than one class, only the best aspect of each total class is used. For example, the Wizard 6 / Fighter 6 has a BAB of +6, not +9, and thus has a lower BAB than if they'd been a pure fighter. Thus, it is not always best to combine classes.

Another Example:
Contrast a Wizard 9 with a Wizard 8 / Fighter 5, both about the same "cost" in this system.

The first would have a slightly lower BAB (+4 instead of +5), and a lower fortitude save (+3 instead of +4), and would lack the Fighter features. It would have higher wizard casting, though (5th level spells), a higher reflex and will save)

--------------------

I give more details below, but that should be enough to render an general opinion. Have you heard of similar things? Any immediate problems spring to mind?

More Details:

So, first, the shifting exp up by one level is necessary, because otherwise level one would be "free" to buy.

Second, I fully expect that most players would end up at least "dipping" in other classes at higher levels, hence the limitation to three total classes.

Third, "character level" would be determined by the maximum level the character could have in a class. So, your "character level" is not reduced by splitting exp between classes.

Fourth, hit points would be handled in the following manner: Hit die for hit points purposes would be the best of each level, and constitution bonuses/toughness bonuses would be based on character level.

So, for example, consider a character who has 105,000 xp, and has levels Wizard 8 / Fighter 5 with a CON of 14 and no other modifiers to hit points. Note that the character level of this person would be 9, from their 105,000xp.

Their hit points would be given by: 5d10 (from five fighter levels) + 3d6 (from 3 wizard levels beyond the fighter levels) + 2x9 (for con bonuses).

Fifth, I'm not certain how to handle skill points yet. Just getting all the skill points from all your class levels is too much, but I need to put more thought into how to handle it.

Sixth, every ability that allows you to combine levels in different classes would have the addendum "to a maximum of your character level" implied. So, if you stack Inquisitor and Cleric levels for channeling purposes, it is to a maximum of your character level.


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So you are using AD&D multiclassing.


This is really interesting.

It seems like you're effectively giving everybody zero-sided hit-dice if they don't have as many true character levels as a single-classed character would, right?

If that's the case, I would do something similar with skill ranks: If a character multiclasses into a class with more skill points at each level, they should get extra points (so a Fighter 1 who becomes a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 would gain 6 ranks), but award bonus ranks for high intelligence based on character level.


I used a similar system to augment multiple animal companion class features (licke pack lord, beast master etc) to where the individual ACs would still be relevant. Only i went off the XP rewards per encounter table.

I really like the idea. If you take the XP chart, divide all values by 1000 you could also just call it Class points. And then say for instance, A Level 4 character has 15 class points to spend, level two in each class costs 5 class points etc.

Java Man wrote:
So you are using AD&D multiclassing.

Is that what it is? That would go a long way to explain the class levels of multiclass characters in Baldur's gate and Torment for me.


Mortuum wrote:
It seems like you're effectively giving everybody zero-sided hit-dice if they don't have as many true character levels as a single-classed character would, right?

Exactly. Considering again a Fighter 6 / Wizard 6 v. Wizard 8 v. Fighter 8, all costing roughly the same "exp cost", all character level 8, Con 14.

Using the PFS hit point method (d6 = 4, d10 = 6)

The Wizard 8 has 8d6 + 2 x 8 = 48
The Fighter 8 has 8d10 + 2 x 8 = 64
The Wizard 6 / Fighter 6 has 6d10 + 2 x 8 = 52.

So, the Pure fighter has the most, followed by the fighter / wizard, followed by the wizard. Exactly as it should be. :)

Mortuum wrote:
If that's the case, I would do something similar with skill ranks: If a character multiclasses into a class with more skill points at each level, they should get extra points (so a Fighter 1 who becomes a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 would gain 6 ranks), but award bonus ranks for high intelligence based on character level.

Perfect and obvious; I don't know why I didn't think about that. And maximum ranks per skill would be based on character level as well, obviously.

So, Fighter 6 / Rogue 6 v. Rogue 8 v. Fighter 8, character level 8, intelligence 14

Fighter 6 / Rogue 6 has 8x6 + 2x8 = 64
Fighter 8 has 2x8 + 2x8 = 32
Rogue 8 has 8x8 + 2x8 = 80.

Yup, I like it. Thank you for the thought!


Threeshades wrote:
Is that what it is? That would go a long way to explain the class levels of multiclass characters in Baldur's gate and Torment for me.

It's similar to AD&D multiclassing, certainly. In AD&D, and by extension the referenced computer games, the multiclass characters always had their experience points split evenly between their different classes. In addition, there were very specific rules for how some of the combinations worked.

So, this certainly shares things in common with AD&D multiclassing, but its distinct in that there is much more flexibility in splitting up your experience. If I recall correctly, effects based on hit dice were just determined by whichever class you had the highest level in, as opposed to making character level a separate thing. (Also, the hit points thing is different than how AD&D multiclassing worked, as well as the skills, but that's a minor point)


I played in a game where we tested this theory.
By the time we were done, we were 23 HD, had 2 level 20 classes and one 19.
You'd only increase the saves and BAB of the class you'd bought levels for, etc.
At high levels (15+) it becomes easy to buy several levels of another class instantly...
I had a 20 Anti-paladin/20 inquisitor/19 magus.


Hmm... well, I wouldn't let character level go beyond 20 myself, which means it would be impossible to get more than one capstone...

But, yes, I may need to think more deeply about adjusting the costs of these things. Roughly speaking, you can get two classes at level X-2 for the same "cost" as a single class at X. It might be better to make that X-3, or X-4. I'll look into the numbers.

I appreciate the input about your experiences, though! Anything else of note?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Java Man wrote:
So you are using AD&D multiclassing.

yeah, how you multiclasses originally is you just chose two classes and split your experience evenly.


Yes, upon further thought on the input from Kryzbyn, I think it's a better power balance to have, for example, Cleric X-3 / Wizard X-3 cost the same as a Wizard X (this is fitting in with the Mystic Theurge trend, for example). So, I think I'm going to modify it to something like a "class point" system, as suggested by Threeshades. You would gain experience and character level normally via the standard chart (thus it has the advantage of not having to touch the experience point system at all) and then each time your character gained a level, you would have total character points given by the following:

Chart:

1: 50
2: 100
3: 165
4: 250
5: 350
6: 480
7: 700
8: 900
9: 1,150
10: 1,500
11: 2,000
12: 2,500
13: 3,200
14: 4,000
15: 5,000
16: 6,400
17: 8,000
18: 10,000
19: 13,000
20: 16,000

So, a 15th level character would have 5,000 points, and could either be 15th level in one class, or 12th/12th, or 11th/10th/10th, among other possible combinations. I think this provides a better balance than using the experience point chart directly, which would equate a 15th level single class to a 13th/13th, or a 13th/12th/9th.

A 20th level character could be 20th in one class, or 17th in two classes, or 17th/14th/14th, or 19th/12th/6th, among other combinations.

This still makes characters more powerful than in vanilla (which was always my expectation), but I think it's less ridiculous than using the exp directly.

It also has the advantage that, since you can only gain class levels upon gaining a character level, it means that a wizard (for example) who multiclasses at all will *always* be at least 1 level behind a wizard who does not, no matter how little he multiclasses.


Rudy2 wrote:

Hmm... well, I wouldn't let character level go beyond 20 myself, which means it would be impossible to get more than one capstone...

But, yes, I may need to think more deeply about adjusting the costs of these things. Roughly speaking, you can get two classes at level X-2 for the same "cost" as a single class at X. It might be better to make that X-3, or X-4. I'll look into the numbers.

I appreciate the input about your experiences, though! Anything else of note?

Well, one take away is in some cases the characters were not as powerful as you'd think. With the 3 classes I chose, two of the mwere very swift action dependant, so he could not instantly bring everything to bear in one round. He was a half giant, and his black blade was a large bastard sword, so with the vital strike chain, corruptive touch max damage everytime, etc etc he only got concerned if things lived after his first few hits...plus he had a pet horned devil...

Some other combos though...one of the other characters was a drow zen archer/marksman/archer fighter. Between all of his class abilities, he could regularly kill most everything in an AOE arrow barrages...
The other character was a psion (nomad)/rogue/elocator he was the flanker, and did ridiculous damage, but very situational.

At the early levels, the power level isn't that bad, but grows quickly. Just like with a gestalt character, your enemy is action economy (unless you have a pimped out demon pet...) as you're limited by how many things you can do in one round. So we focused on ways to make nova strikes first, use tactics second. We often destroyed scenarios or encounters 4-8 APLs higher.

Saving throws take a noticable hit. They aren't as strong as you'd think. This is probably why we started nova-ing :)

I guess another thing, is if it's only an option, a guy who doesn't multiclass will be left behind quickly. He might get his capstone first, but the others will only be a few (tops) levels behind, and have 2-3 classes worth of class abilities.


I think it sounds good. I would have to take a closer look at the numbers you would get with the experience points division.

You could yet deflate the numbers you have there by dividing them by 5.


Mystic theurge is probably not a good balancing point: without early entry shenanigans it is considered a very sub-par prestige class.

You could control low-level byoff by a combination of factors:

a) multiclassing works like gestalt: at any one level you can only be gaining the benefits of up to two classes. If you picked up another class or prestiged out, you would be replacing the progression of one of your original multiclasses

b) multiclassing works like adnd: instead of separating the multiclassing out as you have done, you pick your multiclass at level 1 and then are forced to alternate (or simply divide XP purely evenly, so both classes will always level together).

*edit*

characters are always going to end up more powerful when you give them more options. There's not a lot you can do about that.


I've come up with what I think is a clean solution to low-level byoff: each character level you can gain a maximum of one level in any given class. This means that you can't wait til character level 17 to all of a sudden by 10 fighter levels.

I'm not going to even think about trying to add in prestige classes until I get this working for the base classes to my satisfaction.


This is really coming together, and I want to say how grateful I am for the input; it's been really, really helpful in making this into something I think can actually work.

I've consolidated the system as it stands now here. According to Threeshades' suggestion, I deflated the points by a bunch.

Additionally, I changed how hit points/skill points work slightly, and added in specific changes to two things:

One, the Magical Knack trait I nerfed to only increase caster level by 1, unless applied to Paladin or Ranger. Otherwise, the trait becomes too much of a no-brainer in this system.

Two, I had to change the wording of the Monastic Legacy feat.

More input of any kind, as well as ideas as to other feats I may have to tweak, are very much appreciated!


Looks good.


Thanks! I ended up raising the restriction on adding levels to a class from 1 to 2. That is, each character level you can buy up to 2 levels of any given class. The restriction to 1 ended up being too restrictive after some testing I did, requiring that you plan out your progression in intimate detail. Restricting it to 2 allows more flexibility, while still preventing ridiculous things like gaining 10 levels of fighter all at once.

Here are some examples of a few builds I worked out.

Oradin:
1: Paladin 1
2: Paladin 2
3: Paladin 3
4: Paladin 3 / Oracle 2
5: Paladin 4 / Oracle 2
6: Paladin 4 / Oracle 4
7: Paladin 4 / Oracle 5
8: Paladin 4 / Oracle 6
9: Paladin 4 / Oracle 8
10: Paladin 5 / Oracle 9
11: Paladin 6 / Oracle 10
12: Paladin 6 / Oracle 11
13: Paladin 6 / Oracle 12
14: Paladin 8 / Oracle 13
15: Paladin 8 / Oracle 14
16: Paladin 9 / Oracle 15
17: Paladin 10 / Oracle 16
18: Paladin 11 / Oracle 17
19: Paladin 12 / Oracle 18
20: Paladin 13 / Oracle 19
----------------------

Zen Inquisitor:
1: Monk 1
2: Monk 2
3: Monk 3
4: Monk 3 / Inquisitor 2
5: Monk 4 / Inquisitor 2
6: Monk 5 / Inquisitor 2 / Fighter 1
7: Monk 6 / Inquisitor 2 / Fighter 1
8: Monk 6 / Inquisitor 4 / Fighter 2
9: Monk 7 / Inquisitor 5 / Fighter 3
10: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 6 / Fighter 3
11: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 8 / Fighter 3
12: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 10 / Fighter 3
13: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 11 / Fighter 4
14: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 12 / Fighter 6
15: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 13 / Fighter 8
16: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 14 / Fighter 8
17: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 16 / Fighter 8
18: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 17 / Fighter 9
19: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 18 / Fighter 10
20: Monk 8 / Inquisitor 19 / Fighter 12
----------------------

Irorian Lorekeeper:
1: Monk 1
2: Monk 2
3: Monk 3
4: Monk 3 / Wizard 1 / Cleric 1
5: Monk 4 / Wizard 1 / Cleric 1
6: Monk 5 / Wizard 2 / Cleric 1
7: Monk 6 / Wizard 2 / Cleric 1
8: Monk 6 / Wizard 4 / Cleric 2
9: Monk 6 / Wizard 6 / Cleric 3
10: Monk 6 / Wizard 8 / Cleric 3
11: Monk 6 / Wizard 9 / Cleric 5
12: Monk 6 / Wizard 10 / Cleric 5
13: Monk 6 / Wizard 11 / Cleric 5
14: Monk 6 / Wizard 13 / Cleric 5
15: Monk 6 / Wizard 14 / Cleric 6
16: Monk 6 / Wizard 15 / Cleric 7
17: Monk 6 / Wizard 16 / Cleric 9
18: Monk 6 / Wizard 17 / Cleric 10
19: Monk 6 / Wizard 18 / Cleric 11
20: Monk 8 / Wizard 19 / Cleric 12
----------------------


I've been toying with similar ideas but haven't had a chance to test them, so I'll be fascinated to see how this progresses. Dotting for interest.

One thing I particularly like about the approach of buying levels with XP is that, calling back to AD&D, you can easily mix different XP advancement tracks in order to help balance classes against one another. One could envision, say, putting rogue levels on the fast XP track, wizard levels on the slow track, and ranger levels on the medium track. That kind of thing doesn't really work easily with 3e multiclassing, but works just fine here.


While I agree that you could do so, I'm not sure I'd personally want to add in the complication of different costs for different classes. It's true that I can't envision making an optimal build that has Rogue as its primary class under this system, but I can easily envision many builds that have Rogue as a secondary class, without having to alter the costs at all.

I think I've figured out how to make prestige classes work well. Here is the link again to the document, but I include it below as well.

Prestige Classes:
First, no Mystic Theurgist. It is unnecessary under this system, and a needless complication.

A prestige class can be added onto any of your three base classes that you have at least 5 levels in, as long as you meet the prerequisites as normal. Prerequisites can be satisfied by abilities across all of your base classes, not only the class that you add the prestige class onto.

When leveling in that prestige class, the level of the prestige class is added to the base class to determine the total level that you need to “pay” for using class points (examples will follow, if that is unclear). Finally, if the prestige class has any features that directly advance or stack with aspects of a base class, then that must be applied to the base class the prestige class is attached to. For example, if the prestige class advances spellcasting, then it must be used to advance the spellcasting of the base class you added it to.

Example 1:
Consider an 8th level character who is a 5th level Wizard and 6th level Cleric. He advances to character level 9, which means one thing he could do is advance to a 7th level Wizard, 6th level Cleric if he wanted to, based upon the points he has. Instead, he decides he wants to take levels in the Loremaster prestige class, and he has the feats and skill ranks to meet the requirements. So, he decides to add 2 levels of Loremaster onto his Wizard levels. Thus, he becomes a Wizard 5/Loremaster 2 and a Cleric 6, which costs the same number of class points as being a Wizard 7 and a Cleric 6. The Loremaster prestige class advances spellcasting, which must be applied to the Wizard’s spellcasting ability, since that is the class that the Loremaster is attached to.

Example 2:
Consider a 6th level character who is a 5th level Wizard and a 3rd level fighter. He advances to character level 7, and decides he wants to take levels in the Eldritch Knight prestige class, because he really wants to work toward its capstone ability. He chooses to attach the prestige class to his wizard levels, and becomes a Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1 and a Fighter 3. This costs the same as a 6th level class and a 3rd level class, so he can afford to do it. As he advances in the Eldritch Knight, the casting increase will apply to his wizard casting, however the levels in the class will not stack with his fighter levels for fighter feat qualifications, because the prestige class is not attached to his fighter levels.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Rudy2 wrote:

Yes, upon further thought on the input from Kryzbyn, I think it's a better power balance to have, for example, Cleric X-3 / Wizard X-3 cost the same as a Wizard X (this is fitting in with the Mystic Theurge trend, for example).

I felt like making new charts that matched this more.

Chart DE3lvls:

1: 100
2: 135
3: 165
4: 200
5: 270
6: 330
7: 400
8: 520
9: 660
10: 800
11: 1040
12: 1320
13: 1600
14: 2080
15: 2640
16: 3200
17: 4160
18: 5280
19: 6400
20: 8320

Chart DE2lvls:

1: 100
2: 150
3: 200
4: 300
5: 400
6: 600
7: 800
8: 1200
9: 1600
10: 2400
11: 3200
12: 4800
13: 6400
14: 9600
15: 12800
16: 19200
17: 25600
18: 38400
19: 53200
20: 76800

this isn't as impressive at lower levels.


No, it's actually awful at low levels, which is why in the chart I made it's not X-3/X-3 at low levels; that doesn't kick in until you get to higher levels.

For example, using my chart:

A 2nd level character can be Wizard 1, Cleric 1.

A 6th level character can be Wizard 4, Cleric 4.

A 10th level character can be Wizard 8, Cleric 7.

A 14th level character can be Wizard 11, Cleric 11.

So, it starts at X-1 / X-1, and transitions to X-3 / X-3 for characters that balance between two classes.


Rudy2 wrote:
While I agree that you could do so, I'm not sure I'd personally want to add in the complication of different costs for different classes. It's true that I can't envision making an optimal build that has Rogue as its primary class under this system, but I can easily envision many builds that have Rogue as a secondary class, without having to alter the costs at all.

I think using different costs for different classes would be kind of a nuisance here (if for no other reason, then because of the way you're handling total character level and its effect on hit points, skill ranks, and whatnot). Just wanted to throw that out there as a general comment for systems of this basic type, particularly since making rogue levels cheaper than wizard levels is probably also useful for characters who choose not to multiclass at all.


Yeah, it's kind of neat in a way that AD&D recognized that wizards were the best, and therefore made them cost more experience points :)

So, I've noted a few balance tweaks for Monastic Legacy, the Oracle's Curse (with how other class levels stack with oracle levels), the Magical Knack trait, and Boon Companion, in the file.

What other things are there that increase effective level for things? I'm sure I'm missing a lot.


If I'm not mistaken a level 2 Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 would have +1 BAB, 1d12+1d6 HD, +2 FORT and +0 WIL/REF, 6+(2xINT) skillpoints, a bonus feat, fast movement and rage as opposed to the vanilla: +2 BAB, +4 Fort, +0 WIL/REF, 1d20+1d10 HD, 6+(2xINT) skillpoints, bonus feat, fast movement and rage he normally gets

Also at level three he would behind a vanilla multiclass character with a two class combo, even more so if he went 3 classes. Only at starting at level the numbers start to compensate.

Would it perhaps make sense that on excess levels instead of having d6s for hit points, 2 skill points and bad save progression, you would instead have those levels will by the lowest characteristic among classes you have?

Let's try this our barb/fighter reaches level 12 and goes 9/9, in my version he would now have 9d12+3d10 HD, +12 BAB, 42+(12xINT) skills and +8 FORT and +4 REF/WIL, and his class features would be short of a pure level 12 character of each class by 2 rage powers, 1 point of DR, 1 point of trap sense bonus and greater rage, as well as 2 bonus combat feats, 1 point of bravery bonus and one instance of armor training.

Okay considering that you would have a lot more features even if youre still short by the highest one, going with basic d6 hit dice with 2 skill points might be important for balance.


Hah! I actually *just* finished adding exactly that as "Advanced Rules" at the bottom of the document. Great minds think alike; Take a look =D


I think the way I did saves in the advanced rules is slightly different than what you're suggesting, but I think they are similar enough.


I think that, if I end up using this, I'll make a spreadsheet to auto-calculate these values. It won't be hard, and it will help a lot with less math-inclined players.


Threeshades wrote:
Okay considering that you would have a lot more features even if youre still short by the highest one, going with basic d6 hit dice with 2 skill points might be important for balance.

No, if balance needs to be added, this is not a good way to do it. Note that the d6 / 2 skill point mechanism provides very little "balance" at all to, say, a Sorcerer / Oracle combination. In other words, the d6/2 skill points thing hurts martial/skilled characters much more than it hurts casters.

Thus, I prefer the advanced type system of the kind you outline in your post. If the system proves to be too stacked against single classed characters, I'll have to resolve that in some other way.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

so I realized that this system pressures you to go with multiple classes.

It will be much easier to get more classes than it would be to keep leveling up a single class. basically 3 classes would be the preferred bang for your buck in the way of gaining class abilities and effective level.

not really sure how you handle BAB, hit dice, and skill points. you mentioned them, but you either said not sure, or something that was very hard for me to grasp.


I actually think the optimal thing will end up being, in most cases, to have one "primary" class, which you keep one or two less than your character level, and to spend the leftover points on one or two secondary classes. Multiclassing will be better for martials than for casters, but that's always been the case.

I actually think splitting three ways will rarely be the best choice, except perhaps for a purely martial build (Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian, for example).

For example, I think that most wizard players would choose to lose a single level of wizard spellcasting, in the long run, to gain some levels in other classes, such as shown in my Irorian Lorekeeper example.

I don't have a problem, exactly, if this system encourages multiclassing, so long as it doesn't make one or two types of multiclassing the clearly superior ones.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Rudy2 wrote:

I actually think the optimal thing will end up being, in most cases, to have one "primary" class, which you keep one or two less than your character level, and to spend the leftover points on one or two secondary classes. Multiclassing will be better for martials than for casters, but that's always been the case.

I actually think splitting three ways will rarely be the best choice, except perhaps for a purely martial build (Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian, for example).

For example, I think that most wizard players would choose to lose a single level of wizard spellcasting, in the long run, to gain some levels in other classes, such as shown in my Irorian Lorekeeper example.

I don't have a problem, exactly, if this system encourages multiclassing, so long as it doesn't make one or two types of multiclassing the clearly superior ones.

what I was actually fishing for was an explanation on BAB, saves, skill points, basically the stuff tied to class level but not necessarily the class. because i think those are where the problems lie.

also you realize that by level 20, all a primary caster is losing by going 3 classes is his 9th level spells. 3 15s according to the original chart, this is a significant increase in spells per day. also how exactly do you handle bonus feats from classes? multiclassing significantly increases the ability to get feats through classes.

this changes the dynamic heavily in favor of classes multiclassing.


Level 20 is irrelevant in practice, so I'm not worried about that. On the other hand, waiting one or two more levels to get to 9th level spells is very relevant.

The explanation for BAB, saves, etc. is in the document I've been linking. The two sentence summary is: It's based on a combination of the values between the different classes combined. Character level is independent of how the player chooses to split class points between different classes.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

AH, thank you I missed that.

first point, I'd keep the class points in the hundreds so people can still give out portions of levels for awards at lower levels.

BAB with +1 is weird. 3 classes with 1/2 progression end up getting above 1/2 progression by lvl "20". any full BAB used gives you 20, 3/4 BAB gives you 16.

15th level wiz, sor, and arcanist get per day:

spell level 0: blah
spell level 1: 14
spell level 2: 14
spell level 3: 14
spell level 4: 14
spell level 5: 14
spell level 6: 13
spell level 7: 9
spell level 8: 1
spell level 9: 0

I'm not saying this is OP, or anything but this is a large increase in lower level spells per day.

by "6th" level you can have 14 1st level spells.

edit: also how is caster level determined?


If at 6th level you have 14 1st level spells, then you have no 3rd level spells. It's a tradeoff.

I think you may have misunderstood the system. At level 20, if you have three classes with 1/2 BAB progression, then you have 15 levels in each. The best total BAB from any of your classes, then, is +7 BAB. In addition to that, because your character level is 5 levels above your highest class level, you get an additional +2. That gives +9 BAB for the 3 classes with 1/2 progression at level 20.


Bandw2 wrote:
edit: also how is caster level determined?

Caster level is based only on the class level, and doesn't get any additional boost from character level.


Bandw2 wrote:
first point, I'd keep the class points in the hundreds so people can still give out portions of levels for awards at lower levels.

Actually, this is an important point I should clarify. First, if it wasn't clear, the actually gaining of levels is still done by the standard experience point system. This system does not alter that at all. It's just that, when you gain a character level, this system gives you class points that lets you gain power in various classes.

It's actually pretty important for balance that there are no "half levels" here. I don't want people gaining class levels in the middle of character levels. Why? Because, they way it is now, any character who multiclasses, even only 1 level in another class, will always be at least one level behind one who doesn't. The wizard who dips into fighter will always be at least a full spellcasting level behind the one who does not; there will never be a point at which he catches up. That is a crucial balancing mechanism, and the only thing that makes single classing still a viable choice for casters.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

OH at the beginning it says by every two levels.
"Then, for every two levels by which your character level exceeds your highest class level, increase your BAB by 1."

I think that would be better written as "Then you BAB increases by 1 for every two levels your character level exceeds your highest class level."

also, to make it more in line with current writing maybe you should replace character level with Hit Dice. As i can't think of a place that directly refers to your overall character level.

Still no word on Caster level?

btw, if you think i'm pestering i'm not(internally: at least i hope i'm not), i'm a programmer, this is what i do, look at rules for logic errors, look at comments to make sure their worded well for others to read, making sure the end result matches the expected result.

also, I miss calculated by 6th level you'd have 12. I forgot that wizard chart also has 0th level spells per day. by lvl "9" you'd have 14, with up to fourth level spells.


I don't think you're pestering, so don't worry. I posted this thread to get critical input, after all.

In some cases, it would actually be incorrect for me to say HD instead of character level. For most players, they are the same, but if a player had racial hit dice for some reason, me referring to hit dice instead of character level would screw up the same system.

In terms of caster level, I did answer, but I don't blame you for missing it because I was posting a lot :)

Rudy2 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
edit: also how is caster level determined?
Caster level is based only on the class level, and doesn't get any additional boost from character level.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

omg, yeah it wasn't even posted yet when I was posting mine.

hmm, I find that weird... so if i was a 19th level fighter ,and 13th level wizard, I'd still have CL 20.

what about classes that have CL = level-3?

like the paladin or ranger?


No, you'd have caster level 13. You are wizard 13, so your caster level is based on your class level, which is 13.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Rudy2 wrote:
No, you'd have caster level 13. You are wizard 13, so your caster level is based on your class level, which is 13.

ok, see this is why I said HD, class level and character level confuse me. or maybe use a new term that is innately different like Total Class level, or Effective Class level.


Not a bad idea; I'll think about it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

oh, also you should put in big bold letters

"HOW DO YOU LEVEL UP?: exactly the same except you gain class points instead of levels in some class"

the chart made me feel you gained class points form the GM as they we're on the same level and before experience points, AKA their not over with the other things you gain per level.


Yeah, I'm working on re-wording the whole thing to be more clear right now. It's in flux.


I changed the wording around using your idea of "effective class level". Let me know if that seems clearer to you; thank you.

Sleep now, I'll look at again with fresh eyes tomorrow. :)


"effective class level" I think just made it seem more confusing and technical than it really was. Plus, I remembered that ECL used to mean something else entirely back in 3.5

Instead, I just abbreviated class level as ClsL in the document, making a note of this early on, in order to visually distinguish it from "character level".

I think it's clearer; let me know if you still have trouble at all understanding it.

Secondly, I'm still trying to think of things that increase effective level for things in this system. I thought of the Shaping Focus feat, which I think I'll have to nerf to either 2 or 3 levels. Any other similar abilities occur to anyone, besides the ones I mentioned before (Magical Knack, Boon Companion, Monastic Legacy)?


So if a character goes mono for about 10 levels and then decides to level in another class (like with that wizard to fighter example) they will lag behind for a while?

Let's go only by BAB and class features for a moment, we have the Wiz10 levelling up to ChrLvl 11, deciding to multiclass into fighter. He gets the two levels of fighter and with that has BAB 6

While a character that was progressing muliclassed wuld now be at Wiz10, Fgt6, with a BAB 8.

I think thats a bit unelegant, and you cannot really ever catch up on your class points with your new class, sou you have three options: multiclass further, which is okay if you wanted to do that anyway, continue with you primary class and have a slight class points lag or lag behnd completely.

About the save progression i would have to mull it over with a few class combinations to see how that works out.

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