I'm facing a rules problem/question with the Winter Witch prestige class.
The WW ability.
Unearthly Cold (Su): At 8th level, a winter witch’s spells,
spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities that deal cold
damage become horrendously cold. Half the cold damage
caused by these effects comes from an otherworldly
power and is not subject to being reduced by resistance or
immunity to cold-based attacks.
The monster having Cold Immunity
Immunity (Ex or Su)
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.
Format: Immune acid, fire, paralysis; Location: Defensive Abilities.
or
Energy Immunity and Vulnerability
A creature with energy immunity never takes damage from that energy type. Vulnerability means the creature takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from that energy type, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed or if the save is a success or failure.
So the question we're debating here, is that I have a winter witch character with snowcasting from Frostburn. She tried to make a spell that does no damage, just effects (suffocation) on frost giants as a cold spell. The DM ruled that because immunity says that they are immune to all spells with the cold descriptor, they would be immune to any spell that she made 'cold', even if it did no damage. (snowcasting basically just gives any spell the cold descriptor, which gives her a CL bonus due to her prestige class) My side of the debate is that they are just immune to cold DAMAGE, not side effects from cold spells, and unearthly cold should probably get past that for effects anyhow. (ie. boreal wind is a stronger, cold gust of wind. Even without Unearthly Cold they would just be immune to the cold damage it caused, but not immune to the wind pushing effects.)
Also, technically, by that logic Unearthly Cold would be a total waste since any spell with the cold descriptor they would be totally immune to anyhow and it wouldn't even do damage in the first place, so half of the damage not being cold would be a moot point.
This isn't a heated, angry debate, just one where we're both confused and don't really know what the answer is. It happened a couple of days ago in our game and we need to figure this out before we start again. His ruling for that day was that he let me re-choose my action saying how the giants just would laugh off the mass suffocation spell since it now had a cold descriptor (so I chose to cast it normally instead).
Specific overrides general. Unearthly Cold specifically indicates that it bypasses normal immunity rules.
But what about cold spell effects? An Unearthly Cold, say Boreal Wind spell that does cold damage, and pushes whoever is caught in it. Unearthly Cold just says that half the damage is normal... so would a cold immune creature just take half cold damage and still shrug off the other, non-damaging, effects because it is a cold spell?
Even without unearthly cold, would say, a cold immune creature hit by a cold type spell that does cold damage, and has a secondary effect to push the creature (due to it being a very strong cold wind) just be able to ignore all aspects of the spell, cold damage and non-damaging, because the spell has a cold descriptor?
But what about cold spell effects? An Unearthly Cold, say Boreal Wind spell that does cold damage, and pushes whoever is caught in it.
The second part of Boreal Wind that pushes whoever is caught in it, is not a cold damage effect, thus it still happens. Despite a targets immunity to cold, it is not immune to being pushed over... so the second part still affects the target.
The wording of Unearthly Cold is very similar to that of Flame Strike's damage being half divine energy that can't be negated by fire resistance/immunity.
The witch's version replaces "normal" cold with unnatural "unearthly" cold. I know it says it's still cold but there are effects that occasionally specifically bypass some forms of energy resistances. Just like Endure Elements is good for natural cold but ineffective against magical cold, Unearthly Cold goes beyond normal resistances.
So yes, sometimes you can do cold damage to cold creatures.
It's the non-damaging part that is confusing us though. For the exact example using snowcasting to turn suffocation, mass into a cold type spell. Frost giants are immune to cold, and it says under immunity that it would grant immunity to all spells of that type, and it's now a cold type spell. It does no damage, so there is nothing to get half past the immunity, but according to the RAW they would be immune to the spell due to it now being a cold spell, and thus the spell effects of suffocating and dying. It just seemed very odd to me to have that happen, since they may be immune to cold, but not having the air pulled out of their lungs and not being able to breathe.
But it does say that immunity includes all spells with that type, so it looks as if with the RAW that the spell just wouldn't work on them at all in the first place since 'unearthly cold' only affects cold damage. O.o
So would unearthly cold be RAI that if used with a non-damaging cold type spell (only cold type due to a feat that turns any spell into a cold type, even non-damaging ones) that those immune to cold wouldn't be immune to the spell or effects? Or is that just normal rules that even without unearthly cold that a frost giant could still be affected by a cold typed suffocation spell since the effect isn't cold, even if it does no damage?
(I'm trying to figure this out before they attack a frost giant tribe to fight a white dragon today. ^^; I was thinking of casting Frostfell on the area to turn as many baddies into ice as possible to make it easier to get to the dragon.)
Immune to cold is pretty clearly immune to cold damage, the first sentence in the immunity entry. Immune cold is an example of the first sentence, Immune paralysis or immune magic would be the second. It is unclear if damage immunity also includes a general immunity to other things with that same descriptor.
Of course most spells with an energy type descriptor are damage spells, so the question doesn't come up often. You are trying to add the cold descriptor to gain a bonus, otherwise their wouldn't be any particular need to have your suffocation spell have the cold descriptor. I would consider it a fair ruling that immunity cold (damage) also included immunity cold (spell descriptor.)
In that case.
Unearthly cold only effects cold damage. So a spell that doesn't deal any damage is unaffected by it completely. If you have a damaging effect with a non-damaging rider (like frostbite) then unearthly cold would effect the cold immune creature at half damage, and thus the rider effect (in the case fatigued) would get through.
A spell with the cold descriptor, the doesn't do damage, would have no effect on a creature immune to cold even if you have Unearthly Cold.
Immunity to an energy type does not make them immune to any secondary effects of a spell. If a spell would normally deal cold damage and knock a creature over but the creature is immune to cold, it would still run the chance of being knocked over even though the energy damage was negated. The creature is immune to COLD, not immune to being KNOCKED OVER. Immunities to affects and afflictions need to be stated in the creature's type or general defensive abilities.
Unearthly cold only does half the damage that would have hit a cold immune creature. They would roll damage dice as normal and then half the amount would be the damage taken for Unearthly Cold.
Unearthly cold only applies to damage.
So in short: unless it is specifically immune to the secondary effect, it will still be affected even though it is immune to damage of that type.
That totally clears it up! Thank you so much. ^_^
So now I know that it's not worth the extra few CL (for targeting more) if they're going to make them immune to it anyhow. lol
So this would mean the spell Frostfell (Transmutation (cold)) that has the effect of:
'Living creatures caught within the area when the spell is cast instantly turn to ice (as per the flesh to ice spell). (note that the 'flesh to ice' spell is just transmutation, no cold descriptor.)
If a creature successfully saves, frostfell deals 1d6 points of frostburn damage per caster level (maximum 20d6).'
So a tribe of frost giants who had Frostfell cast on their area would be immune to the flesh to ice part of it due to the spell being cold (even if the spell it's mimicking isn't) but since they automatically skip that part they would go to the next effect and would take half of the frostburn damage.
I think I see how this works now. Thank you again!
(edits) And then Fenny's reply (and some from earlier) still makes it confusing! Gah! By the one side they should be immune to the entire spell (this example, boreal wind) since it's cold.. so somehow the wind pushing over wouldn't effect them since it's a cold spell. O.o
Boreal Wind:
All creatures caught in the area take 1d4 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 15d4).
A successful Fortitude saving throw negates the gust's effects.
Those that fail the save are pushed away from the caster a distance of 3 feet per caster level.
It's evocation (cold)... so this makes it a cold spell, and by the RAW, somebody without something like unearthly cold couldn't push a cold creature with the spell. @.@
Something just doesn't seem right here.
If it helps you to conceive of why a Frost Giant would be effect by a suffocation spell, but not a snowcast suffocation spell, remember that the snowcasting is indeed changing the spell. Mechanically, this just gives it the cold descriptor which will provide certain bonuses (for you a higher caster level) and certain detriments, such as cold immune creatures not being effected by it. Beyond the mechanics though, it also changes the spell. I'm not familiar with any fluff snowcast might have with it, but whatever it has, it clearly changes the spell, in this case to use the power of cold, as well as just necromancy. You can picture this fluff anyway you like. Perhaps the cold freezes the lungs, perhaps ice crystals prevent normal breathing. In any case, it is then easier to imagine why a cold immune creature would not be harmed by the spell.
If it helps you to conceive of why a Frost Giant would be effect by a suffocation spell, but not a snowcast suffocation spell, remember that the snowcasting is indeed changing the spell. Mechanically, this just gives it the cold descriptor which will provide certain bonuses (for you a higher caster level) and certain detriments, such as cold immune creatures not being effected by it. Beyond the mechanics though, it also changes the spell. I'm not familiar with any fluff snowcast might have with it, but whatever it has, it clearly changes the spell, in this case to use the power of cold, as well as just necromancy. You can picture this fluff anyway you like. Perhaps the cold freezes the lungs, perhaps ice crystals prevent normal breathing. In any case, it is then easier to imagine why a cold immune creature would not be harmed by the spell.
Except that being immune to cold still wouldn't keep you breathing when lungs are filled with material. It doesn't matter how much cold energy you can shrug off when you're having barrels full of ice shoved into your lungs.
I could see the spell itself being cold so the energy/magic of it doesn't quite affect them. It's a bit less 'physical' and more on the 'metaphysical/magical' side of explanation.
Just a note again, that this wasn't an argument with my GM (who is my wonderful husband. ^_^ ) more of something that we looked at and went 'uh... wha... wait a minute' and one of us saw it one way but the other way did make sense too, and vise versa. So we were left confused and he made a temporary ruling that it wouldn't work until we were able to find out for sure what the answer was.
So unless somehow there's something found/pointed-out that really clarifies it, I'm thinking that we're going to keep it as cold immunity includes cold spell effects (unless the damage somehow gets through and it's attached to taking damage), giving the reason as the magic of the spell itself is shrugged off... kind of like spell resistance just fizzles it.
So, now off to prepare my spells to face frost giants and white dragons with a better idea of what to choose.
I could see the spell itself being cold so the energy/magic of it doesn't quite affect them. It's a bit less 'physical' and more on the 'metaphysical/magical' side of explanation.
Just a note again, that this wasn't an argument with my GM (who is my wonderful husband. ^_^ ) more of something that we looked at and went 'uh... wha... wait a minute' and one of us saw it one way but the other way did make sense too, and vise versa. So we were left confused and he made a temporary ruling that it wouldn't work until we were able to find out for sure what the answer was.
So unless somehow there's something found/pointed-out that really clarifies it, I'm thinking that we're going to keep it as cold immunity includes cold spell effects (unless the damage somehow gets through and it's attached to taking damage), giving the reason as the magic of the spell itself is shrugged off... kind of like spell resistance just fizzles it.
So, now off to prepare my spells to face frost giants and white dragons with a better idea of what to choose.
Ah. I would agree that in the case of 'it just happens', the immunity would likely shrug it off.
Have fun!
Thanks for the help. ^_^ This still has us discussing the concept offline, but going forth trying to use the RAI as best as we can for now - which could change in the future if something ever clarifies it more.
RAW Unearthly Cold will transform a Cold descriptor damage dealing spell into one that will affect Cold Immune creatures - Specific vs General.
RAW Cold Immune creatures take no secondary effects from Cold descriptor spell non-damage secondary effects - unless they take damage. So, if you transform a spell into one with the Cold descriptor, then Cold Immune creatures get a full pass from the damage and all effects.
Taking these two together, I'd posit that if it's a Cold descriptor spell that deals damage with Unearthly Cold applied, then Cold Immune creatures take the (1/2) damage and thus the secondary effect. I think this is defensible with RAW/RAI, but not 100% sure.
Further, I'd rule the same interaction if you (1) transformed a spell to Cold descriptor or used a Cold descriptor spell and (2) applied Unearthly Cold, then the secondary effect would receive the benefit of Unearthly Cold breaking through the Cold Immunity, regardless of damage dealing. But that's clearly a house rule not supported by RAW.