PFS Specific Rules Question on Purchased Mounts


Pathfinder Society

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

FAQ:

Quote:

Do purchased animals come fully trained or do I have to train them myself?

The entry for Handle Animal on pages 97–98 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook details which animals come trained—namely, some riding horses and riding dogs have training, but they only come trained to bear a rider into combat. All other animals are subject to Handle Animal to learn additional tricks. See the “Mounts and Related Gear” table on page 159 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for additional details.

Additional Resources states for Animal Archive that:
Quote:
Animals on pages 14-15 are legal for purchase except dinosaurs and megafauna (unless already allowed in this document in Bestiary 1, Bestiary 2, Bestiary 3, or Ultimate Equipment) and dire animals. Additionally, only creatures of the animal type of size Large and smaller may be purchased.

Does this mean if somebody purchases an animal from Animal Archive which is not a riding horse or a riding dog they have to train it themselves using Handle Animal?

Can people purchase a combat-trained tiger for 500 gp (or whatever) and it is good to go?

Or does the FAQ take precedence over Additional Resources? Meaning that if you purchase a 500 gp combat-trained tiger, it nonetheless is not combat-trained according to the FAQ, and you have to use Handle Animal to train it?

Thanks for your time, apologies if it has been answered elsewhere.

Shadow Lodge

Sounds like the FAQ needs updating (if it hasn't been already?).

Grand Lodge

Avatar-1 wrote:
Sounds like the FAQ needs updating (if it hasn't been already?).

That is the current FAQ, but maybe an update would be nice :-)

It just strikes me that some of the animals available for purchase are quite overpowered and having to combat-train them yourself would be a balancing factor.

(I am looking at you, combat-trained Tiger & combat-trained Bison).

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Yes, they're overpowered and yes their legal.

Just keep finding scenarios with druid opponents and it should be a self correcting problem.

Grand Lodge

Quote:
...some riding horses and riding dogs have training, but they only come trained to bear a rider into combat. All other animals are subject to Handle Animal to learn additional tricks.

I thought a tiger would come under "All other animals" and hence are not combat trained and are "subject to Handle Animal to learn additional tricks".

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Phosphorus wrote:
Quote:
...some riding horses and riding dogs have training, but they only come trained to bear a rider into combat. All other animals are subject to Handle Animal to learn additional tricks.
I thought a tiger would come under "All other animals" and hence are not combat trained and are "subject to Handle Animal to learn additional tricks".

bear a rider into combat= combat trained= has the attack trick.

Mind you, that means that it won't attack anything other than humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals until they train it themselves (and undoing training may or may not be doable)

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I present to you: Battle Cattle.

These discussions come up every now and then, and I'm pretty sure the combat-trained tiger has brought up before.

Sovereign Court

I would presume that the FAQ was only taking into account the Core animals. Those from the Animal Archive have a specific calling out for combq\at trained costs.

Grand Lodge

Ellias Aubec wrote:
I would presume that the FAQ was only taking into account the Core animals. Those from the Animal Archive have a specific calling out for combq\at trained costs.

So the additional resources take precedence over the FAQ?

Scarab Sages

I'm trying to figure this out as well. My ranger is getting close to level 4 and I'd prefer to take an animal companion over the other option for hunter's bond.

Several books list animals. For example, Beastiary 1 says Roc are available as animal companions. Can I take one on my ranger, or am I stuck with the FAQ ruling of only the animals listed on page 66 unless it's on an adventure cert?

Shadow Lodge

Eric Kiefer wrote:

Several books list animals. For example, Beastiary 1 says Roc are available as animal companions. Can I take one on my ranger, or am I stuck with the FAQ ruling of only the animals listed on page 66 unless it's on an adventure cert?

The thread was actually about purchased animals, not animal companions, but let's look at that FAQ ruling.

PFS FAQ wrote:

As a ranger, what list of companions can I select my animal companion from?

As a ranger, if you choose an animal companion for your hunter’s bond, you may only select one of the animals listed on page 66 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. No additional companions are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play for Rangers except when granted from another legal source.

So you're restricted to what the Core Rulebook lists as available for rangers to select, plus anything specifically stated in any "legal source" as an option for rangers. From my quick research on the topic, "legal source" appears to be intended to mean something that modifies the list itself, such as the beast rider cavalier archetypes (who have the same wording about "another legal source" in a separate FAQ entry), or a boon that adds the option.

So unless you have a feat, alternate class feature, or a boon that adds additional options, yes, you are restricted to what's listed for rangers in the CRB.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Another legal source could also be an entry in a bestiary that says that "This animal is also available as a Ranger's Animal Companion."

Shadow Lodge

kinevon wrote:
Another legal source could also be an entry in a bestiary that says that "This animal is also available as a Ranger's Animal Companion."

That was my initial thought, too, but my research led me to believe otherwise.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
SCPRedMage wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Another legal source could also be an entry in a bestiary that says that "This animal is also available as a Ranger's Animal Companion."
That was my initial thought, too, but my research led me to believe otherwise.

To be honest, given the answer he quoted, and what the Roc itself says, if the PRD has the current correct text, Secane drew an incorrect conclusion.

Mike Brock only mentioned the Paladin, Cavalier and Nature Oracle, not the Ranger.

The Roc explicitly mentions Rangers as being a class that can choose one.

That, to me, qualifies, just like the mention of Improved Natural Armor in the Druid Animal Companion Feats section of the CRB, as another legal source.

Just verified that the Roc is a legal AC per Additional Resources.
Roc says that Druid and Rangers can take it, in the write-up in the Bestiary.

Shadow Lodge

kinevon wrote:
Mike Brock only mentioned the Paladin, Cavalier and Nature Oracle, not the Ranger.

Yes, but the FAQ answer for those classes uses word-for-word identical language as the entry for the ranger.

As a paladin or cavalier, what mount can I have? wrote:
No additional mounts are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play except when granted from another legal source.
As a ranger, what list of companions can I select my animal companion from? wrote:
No additional companions are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play for Rangers except when granted from another legal source.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

SCPRedMage wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Mike Brock only mentioned the Paladin, Cavalier and Nature Oracle, not the Ranger.

Yes, but the FAQ answer for those classes uses word-for-word identical language as the entry for the ranger.

As a paladin or cavalier, what mount can I have? wrote:
No additional mounts are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play except when granted from another legal source.
As a ranger, what list of companions can I select my animal companion from? wrote:
No additional companions are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play for Rangers except when granted from another legal source.

And the Bestiary is "another legal source", yes?

Quote:
Rocs taken as animal companions by druids or rangers are typically newly hatched birds—a baby roc is the size of a person and ready for flight and hunting within minutes of hatching. Unfortunately for druids seeking animal companions of legendary size, an animal companion roc is limited to Large size—still large enough for a Medium druid or ranger to use the flying beast as a mount.

Emphasis added, but that is from the Roc entry from the Bestiary.

Additional Resources cites Roc from the Bestiary as being a legal Animal Companion. Bestiary is therefore a legal source.

Ipso ergo, Roc should be a legal AC for Rangers.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
kinevon wrote:
And the Bestiary is "another legal source", yes?

No.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Nefreet wrote:
kinevon wrote:
And the Bestiary is "another legal source", yes?
No.
Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary

Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131–133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source. Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.

So, Additional Resources says yes.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

kinevon, it is not a legal source that adds the animal to the ranger list.

the entry explicitly saying that rangers can add roc to their list of animal companions.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
kinevon wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
kinevon wrote:
And the Bestiary is "another legal source", yes?
No.
Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary

Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131–133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source. Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.
So, Additional Resources says yes.

Not unless you're also arguing that Rangers can now choose a Brachiosaurus, Electric Eel, or Goblin Dog.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Nefreet wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
kinevon wrote:
And the Bestiary is "another legal source", yes?
No.
Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary

Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131–133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source. Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.
So, Additional Resources says yes.
Not unless you're also arguing that Rangers can now choose a Brachiosaurus, Electric Eel, or Goblin Dog.

Do those Animal Companion listings include the mention of Rangers taking them as ACs? If so, yes.

Brachiosaurus: No mention of Ranger there, as far as I can see, so no.
Electric Eel: No mention of Ranger there, either, so no.
Goblin Dog: No mention of Ranger in that one, either, so no.

Roc wrote:
Rocs taken as animal companions by druids or rangers are typically newly hatched birds—a baby roc is the size of a person and ready for flight and hunting within minutes of hatching. Unfortunately for druids seeking animal companions of legendary size, an animal companion roc is limited to Large size—still large enough for a Medium druid or ranger to use the flying beast as a mount.

So, Roc explicitly mentions Rangers taking them as companions, so yes.

So, is the above text, taken directly from the Roc entry from the PRD, not a legal rules source?

Now, if you want to list another Animal Companion, probably from one of the Bestiaries, which says that Rangers can take them as ACs, and the AC is listed as legal for PFS ACs, then yes, they would be legal ACs for Rangers, too.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

The PRD is not a legal rules source for players in PFS.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Kinevon, the Bestiaries are not legal sources. You can't choose feats or rules elements from them unless those elements are granted by another legal source.

That goes for the entry about Rocs being Ranger Animal Companions, as well. What you need is a statement (in another legal source) that states Rangers can choose Rocs. If you have found such a source, feel free to show us, and our argument falls apart.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Nefreet wrote:

Kinevon, the Bestiaries are not legal sources. You can't choose feats or rules elements from them unless those elements are granted by another legal source.

That goes for the entry about Rocs being Ranger Animal Companions, as well. What you need is a statement (in another legal source) that states Rangers can choose Rocs. If you have found such a source, feel free to show us, and our argument falls apart.

So, how do you, the Druid, get a Roc AC? It isn't a rules source, so the RULES for Roc do not exist?

Additional Resources says these ACs from the Bestiary are legal.

Bestiary says that Druids and Rangers can take these ACs, as part of the information on the AC.

I am missing your disconnect. Explain.

Additional Resources says that the Roc from the Bestiary is a legal Animal Companion for PFS. Correct?
Information on using the Roc as an Animal Companion comes from the Bestiary. Correct?
Information in the Bestiary on the Roc says Druids and Rangers can take Rocs as Animal Companions. Correct?

So, where is your definition differing from mine?

If a legal Animal Companion from any Bestiary says that they are a choice for Ranger, Cavalier or Paladin, you are saying that that Animal Companion would not be a legal choice?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Because the druid doesn't have any limiting language on what ACs it can take. If something is an animal companion, the druid can take it. (Barring certain archetypes.)

Shadow Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
Kinevon, the Bestiaries are not legal sources.

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment... why aren't they? Or in other words, what constitutes a "legal source"?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
FLite wrote:
Because the druid doesn't have any limiting language on what ACs it can take. If something is an animal companion, the druid can take it. (Barring certain archetypes.)

A legal source granting access to something, is exactly that, a source that essentially adds to a list of what you have access to.

So the archetypes that expand cavalier mount options or ranger animal companion options are exactly that: another source granting legal access to something.

In this case, the Roc animal companion entry in the Bestiary is not expanding the ranger's list of options. It is merely saying that rangers and druids that take the roc...

In the case of a druid, it isn't the Bestiary that is granting the druid access, its the Core Rulebook that grants the druid access to the options in the Bestiary.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Okay, let's start with the PFS FAQ for Ranger's Animal Companion:

As a ranger, what list of companions can I select my animal companion from?
As a ranger, if you choose an animal companion for your hunter’s bond, you may only select one of the animals listed on page 66 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. No additional companions are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play for Rangers except when granted from another legal source.

Okay, from Additional Resources:

Quote:
Below is a specific list of Paizo Publishing products and the equipment, traits, deities, spells, feats, and classes contained within that are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. While most of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook is legal for play (with some feat and spell exceptions), these additional resources give you new character options. If a product does not appear on this list, then it is not considered legal for play. This list will be updated frequently as new products are released.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary wrote:
Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131–133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source. Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.

So, nothing that defines a legal source, other than being listed in Additional Resources, and the option being listed as legal, or not listed as illegal, depending on format of the section it appears in.

So, Bestiary is on the list of legal sources for Animal Companions.
Roc is on the list of approved Animal Companions from the Bestiary.
The Roc includes text, not a feat, which would be illegal, that explicitly states that Rocs can be used as Animal Companions for both Druids, who can do it by default, and Rangers, who cannot.

Is this a feat? No.
Is it part of the information from the Bestiary, which is legal, for using a Roc as an Animal Companion, per Additional Resources? Looks like it to me.

However, as it is not included after the Animal Companion title for the Roc, I think that may be what is causing the difference of opinion.

From the Bestiary, page 236:

Quote:

Rocs taken as animal companions by druids or rangers are typically newly hatched birds—a baby roc is the size of a person and ready for flight and hunting within minutes of hatching. Unfortunately for druids seeking animal companions of legendary size, an animal companion roc is limited to Large size—still large enough for a Medium druid or ranger to use the flying beast as a mount.

Roc Companions
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; AC +5 natural armor;
Speed 20 ft., fly 80 ft.; Attack 2 talons (1d4), bite (1d6);
Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 19, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11;
Special Qualities low-light vision.
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +3 natural
armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6 plus grab), bite (1d8); Ability
Scores
Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.

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