Mesmer (GW2) class


Homebrew and House Rules


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I've made a few homebrew classes and with minor tweaks, they end up alright. This one has been sitting in my head for a while, so I put all of the ideas I had on paper, and came up with this:
Mesmer table
Mesmer class info

I need some help, as even after a week or so, this still seems clunky, and broken.

Concept:
My version of the Memser is a psionic class that uses a specialized form of astral constructs, in addition to some party buffing, crowd control, and enemy penalizing, and doesn't completely suck in combat.

It became obvious almost immediately that a direct translation from the video game was not going to be possible. Mesmers in the game use illusions, which mechanically have their own baggage. So, I chose to use psionics and the astral construct, as they actually have form, can be damaged, can't be 'disbelieved' away, and can be "shatter"ed (detonated for damage or other negative or beneficial benefit).

I think even though it's rules clunky, you'll be able to see what I intend for each class ability. I'm hoping with some help from ya'll I can get this where either I'd like it to be, or where it needs to be.

Thanks in advance :)

EDIT: this uses DSP's Psionics...


Notes and questions:
Unfazed is at the first level on the chart and second level in the text document.

The hell is an active energy type? It is referenced in augments but I cant find it elsewhere.

Shatter might be too good with the psionic meditation feat as a move and a swift action and one power point becomes 1/4 of your health in damage to a bunch of enemies potentially. Defensive shatter, confusing shatter, and dazing shatter exacerbate this problem immensely.

Towards that point: I feel like the mesmer's own health matters a weirdly large amount. Is that intentional? Is there a reason that you used a fraction of the mesmer's health for effects rather than making clone and apparition health be some function of character level?

I would put level caps on all the make-shift manifester abilities just to make room for other common obvious feats (like "extra signet" or something).

Does frenzy stack with haste and similar effects? (most abilities like that do not).

I always like a leader/support character, though.


All I can say is, it makes me sad that Mesmers were ruined in GW2. I've been trying to figure out how to build a GW1 Mesmer class but that has been ridiculously difficult.

On the class you have built, I guess I can see it as a nice 2 level dip for a Fighter. Why, you ask?

+3 Reflex
+3 Will
Signets:
Ranged melee: The memser can strike any target within her aura with her melee weapon as a ranged touch attack. This is a ray effect.

All for the cost of +1 BAB.


See you immediately see the problem as well.

Ok points...

Unfazed: I moved it to 1st level, forgot to update the document.
Active energy type: When a psionicist gains his psionic focus, he or she chooses an energy type. Until it's regained, any energy powers used use that energy type.
Shatter: Agreed. I like the falvor but am open to suggestions to tone it down but still be useful.
Tied to health: Well the idea is the mesmer uses two kinds of astral construct, one a throw away that can be quickly summoned to aid in combat, and a clone that's more beefy. I tried to come up with a way to make a quick use thing that din;t have much staying power, but might occupy a foes for a round or two. The clone itself is meant more to be of more use, both in and out of combat.
Makeshift manifester: Ok easily done.
Frenzy: No, it does not stack.


Simon Legrande wrote:

All I can say is, it makes me sad that Mesmers were ruined in GW2. I've been trying to figure out how to build a GW1 Mesmer class but that has been ridiculously difficult.

On the class you have built, I guess I can see it as a nice 2 level dip for a Fighter. Why, you ask?

+3 Reflex
+3 Will
Signets:
Ranged melee: The memser can strike any target within her aura with her melee weapon as a ranged touch attack. This is a ray effect.

All for the cost of +1 BAB.

This isn't the only class that has the saves at that level, and if a fighter wants to only do weapon damage to something at 15' away, I suppose he would love this. It's only meant to give the mesmer a ranged option without swapping weapons, not be some super option. Granted, as written it doesn't say that, but that's what's intended. I'll fix it.


Well, you could do the health like this:

Apparition: 1/2xCha mod+class level in HP <<this generally weakens shatter-for-damage the most (but might still be overpowered when coupled with the extra buff augment).
Clone 1: Cha mod+1.5xclass level in HP
Clone 2: 1.5xCha mod+2xclass level in HP
Clone 3: 2xCha mod+3xclass level in HP

I would maybe just make shatter a debuff. Like enemies within 20 feet must make a fort save or be dazzled for 1+1d6 rounds or something. Then clones 1 through 3 can step up the effect of shatter (up to stagger, nauseate, or stun maybe).


Ranged melee: The memser can focus on her melee weapon, and deal it's damage at range. Once per round, as a standard action the mesmer may make a ranged touch attack to any target within her aura. If she hits, she deals the same damage as the weapon she is wielding at the time she uses this signet.
This is a ray effect.

Good?


Excaliburproxy wrote:

Well, you could do the health like this:

Apparition: 1/2xCha mod+class level in HP <<this generally weakens shatter-for-damage the most (but might still be overpowered when coupled with the extra buff augment).
Clone 1: Cha mod+1.5xclass level in HP
Clone 2: 1.5xCha mod+2xclass level in HP
Clone 3: 2xCha mod+3xclass level in HP

I would maybe just make shatter a debuff. Like enemies within 20 feet must make a fort save or be dazzled for 1+1d6 rounds or something. Then clones 1 through 3 can step up the effect of shatter (up to stagger, nauseate, or stun maybe).

Not bad.

I had toyed with making certain augments be clone or apparition only.


I also need ideas for more signets and such.

Sovereign Court

Dot


Signet ideas written informally:
How about a signet that gives the Mesmer the ability to detect sentient creatures in the radius of her aura?

Or maybe an ability to dispell all illusion in the aura (with a check and a power point cost of course).

Maybe you could transpose an ally within your aura with a clone or apparition.


1)I thought about that first one, but it equates to blindsense with a 30' radius... you think this would be ok?

2)Not a bad idea.

3)The mesmer can almost do this already with shell game.


Kryzbyn wrote:

1)I thought about that first one, but it equates to blindsense with a 30' radius... you think this would be ok?

2)Not a bad idea.

3)The mesmer can almost do this already with shell game.

1) Blind sense is not that amazing, but you could weaken it by merely knowing the direction of the enemy or maybe knowing the distance but not the direction.

on 3) Can't shell game be disbelieved though? Also: how does that make sense exactly? Anyways, I would include switching places with clones and apparitions that are outside of the aura even. Maybe this should be a standard action but I like powers that deliver melee fighters to the point of interest.


That's actually one of the mesmer's abilities in the game...to summon an apparition, it leaps to the target, then you can use it to swap places with it.

Shell game I envisioned being like a "I'm Sparticus" type power where suddenly everyone looks like everyone else, or made to look like they've swapped places. May mess up enemy tactics (kill the healer first! which one is that again?) and sow confusion.


Excaliburproxy wrote:

Well, you could do the health like this:

Apparition: 1/2xCha mod+class level in HP <<this generally weakens shatter-for-damage the most (but might still be overpowered when coupled with the extra buff augment).
Clone 1: Cha mod+1.5xclass level in HP
Clone 2: 1.5xCha mod+2xclass level in HP
Clone 3: 2xCha mod+3xclass level in HP

Appartion: Assume a CHA of 18

So at 1st level, it'd have 3 hp?
At 10th, it'd have 12?
At 20th, it'd have 22?

Clone 1 (5th level): 11 hp?
Clone II (11th level): 28 hp?
Clone III (17th level): 59 hp?
@ 20th 68 hp...

Hmm...this would almost mandate the HP increase augments are used.

I had intended this class to have power points, but not be able to manifest powers normally (unless the signets were chosen), and instead invest their power points in the clones and such.

Right now the clone is an exact copy of the mesmer, just with way less HP.
So as it stands, let's say a mesmer has a 14 CON. That's +2 HP/level, and she rolls a d8. Avg would be 130 hp at 20th level, 150 is she spends all favored class bonus points on HP... so 68 hp isn't too far off. Not too shabby :) This will suck way more at lower levels, but it pans out by 20. Well, at 20 true memser give the clone same amount of HP as the mesmer, so I guess that doesn't matter...

How about looking at the offensive or utility aspects of the clone. Too much/little?


Kryzbyn wrote:

Ranged melee: The memser can focus on her melee weapon, and deal it's damage at range. Once per round, as a standard action the mesmer may make a ranged touch attack to any target within her aura. If she hits, she deals the same damage as the weapon she is wielding at the time she uses this signet.

This is a ray effect.

Good?

Better. Still, if your intent is to only have it do the weapon damage with no modifiers you may want it to say "she deals only the unmodified damage of the weapon she is wielding at the time..." And if you go that route, I don't see an issue with it being not a standard action to use.


You think it'd be ok to use with iterative attacks?


Personally I'd make the ranged melee thingy more like a blink to the target within your aura and deliver an attack then blink back w/o attacks of opportunity. And I'd allow it to be 1 blink per attack as a full round action. Or just 1 blink and attack as a standard action.

But that's just my way of envisioning it.


She can already do that via other powers. This is meant to be a ranged attack.


I actually started on a class like this but I stuck with illusions and threw in shadow magic for partial reality. I also used them as a resource for the more combat based ability. I set them up as partially real clones that he can make up to four of and shares action economy with until later levels. For the most part I based the abilities on deception and illusions that could cause harm through the benefit of being partially real. I do most of my work by hand but I'll see if I can find time to post what I have worked up in the next couple days. Although it my take longer as I am currently on a business trip.


This probably needs to be in Conversions...I flagged to have it moved.


Any help is appreciated, Maedrethnir, whether I end up using the info or not :)


...or this forum I suppose.


Kryzbyn wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:

Well, you could do the health like this:

Apparition: 1/2xCha mod+class level in HP <<this generally weakens shatter-for-damage the most (but might still be overpowered when coupled with the extra buff augment).
Clone 1: Cha mod+1.5xclass level in HP
Clone 2: 1.5xCha mod+2xclass level in HP
Clone 3: 2xCha mod+3xclass level in HP

Appartion: Assume a CHA of 18

So at 1st level, it'd have 3 hp?
At 10th, it'd have 12?
At 20th, it'd have 22?

Clone 1 (5th level): 11 hp?
Clone II (11th level): 28 hp?
Clone III (17th level): 59 hp?
@ 20th 68 hp...

Hmm...this would almost mandate the HP increase augments are used.

I had intended this class to have power points, but not be able to manifest powers normally (unless the signets were chosen), and instead invest their power points in the clones and such.

Right now the clone is an exact copy of the mesmer, just with way less HP.
So as it stands, let's say a mesmer has a 14 CON. That's +2 HP/level, and she rolls a d8. Avg would be 130 hp at 20th level, 150 is she spends all favored class bonus points on HP... so 68 hp isn't too far off. Not too shabby :) This will suck way more at lower levels, but it pans out by 20. Well, at 20 true memser give the clone same amount of HP as the mesmer, so I guess that doesn't matter...

How about looking at the offensive or utility aspects of the clone. Too much/little?

Well, you can change the apparition to cha+level to make things just a little better at level 1 but keep clones the same or perhaps increase the cha hp progression to 2xcha for 1, 3xcha for 2, and 4xcha for 3. I do feel like the level 1 clone could stand to be a little more resilient by level 5, I think.

The clone at level 1 is pretty powerful in general. It essentially can be viewed as a better summon monster 1 in a lot of ways. I mean: this class is proficient with the great sword and 2d6+str at level 1 is pretty damn good and the swift action summon means a lot for action economy.

The apparitions become less of a threat as the game goes on but they are still useful as flanking partners, obstacles, and pawns for other mesmer class abilities. They won't really add to offensive capabilities seriously but it will often be worth the swift action to get a pawn on the field.

Meanwhile, the clone ability is really good. At level 5, it is like you can cast summon monster twice in a round. That is good but it still is sort of just one trick so I am going to call it balanced.

At later levels, I am not sure how I think things are for the clone (who will still suffer from the 3/4 attack progression and a host who suffers from multiple ability dependence), but I think the option for move or swift action summoning gives the mesmer enough offensive capabilities.

Really: I think you need play testing to put a finger on it.


The clone isn't available till level 5...
Did you mean the apparition is too much at 1st level?


Hmm so as written, you could use a swift to summon an apparition, then use a standard to summon a clone...

Well you can't do that till 11th, when the limit to apps/clones is raised to 2. If you try that at 5th level the app will dissipate when the clone is summoned.


Ahhhh. I misremembered that. And yes: I said clone when I meant apparition that one time.

Anyways: I would beef up the clone earlier on if you are going to keep that ruling. Otherwise, it will very rarely be worth summoning at level 5. It will use up your standard action and not even have iterative attacks until you are level 8.


Kryzbyn wrote:
You think it'd be ok to use with iterative attacks?

Sure, if you lock it down to ONLY weapon damage. I don't see a problem with getting 3 attacks per round at 2d6/attack. 6d6/round as touch attacks doesn't seem like anything compared to what other classes can get. This seems like the throwaway option when no others are available.


To me this is Homebrew. I have flagged it as being in the wrong forum. Would not Conversion be an existing other-RPG product converted to PF? Seems like a homage to a computer game made for PF. Thus Homebrew.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
To me this is Homebrew. I bave flagged it as being in the wrong forum. Would not Conversion be an existing other-RPG product converted to PF? Seems like a homage to a computer game made for PF. Thus Homebrew.

They just moved it out of homebrew. I gotta figure that is because this is a psionics class.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
To me this is Homebrew. I bave flagged it as being in the wrong forum. Would not Conversion be an existing other-RPG product converted to PF? Seems like a homage to a computer game made for PF. Thus Homebrew.
They just moved it out of homebrew. I gotta figure that is because this is a psionics class.

Huh. Ok. Sorry folks. Flag me and move on...


No worries


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

is the ranged ray melee thing because mesmers use greatswords as illusionary lightning rods to shoot at enemies? greatswords are their longest range weapon if i remember correctly...


Yep. That's why that's in there, although it won't be as destructive in pathfinder as it is in GW2 :) I wanted it to be useful in Pathfinder, but not so cool as to have builds spring up around it. I also wanted ranged penalties to apply and such. I could have had it mimic the ability of stabbing it in the ground, and having a ectoplasmic version rise out of the ground and hit the target, but I liked the laser :)

My original idea had the Mesmer's abilities tied to their wielded weapon, much like it is in the MMO, where only certain augments or signets could be used while a certain weapon was used...
But wow, clunky. I dediced not to go down that rabbit hole, because I didn't want to make up a whole bunch of new mechanics for this, and I didn't want the mesmer to have to carry around a golf bag of weapons.


Excaliburproxy wrote:

Ahhhh. I misremembered that. And yes: I said clone when I meant apparition that one time.

Anyways: I would beef up the clone earlier on if you are going to keep that ruling. Otherwise, it will very rarely be worth summoning at level 5. It will use up your standard action and not even have iterative attacks until you are level 8.

Hmm...

They don't share attacks, HP, or anything, so action economy is a concern. I don't think it'll be a problem at later levels, but at 5, the apparation is useful even if only as a "damage over time" ability that chases it's opponent for 3-5 rounds. The clone allows more options, both in and out of combat. Not much that early, but when the duration goes to minutes and hours per level, the possibilities open up quite a bit.


So, back to the aura...
Are those bonuses ok?

To the blindsense idea...what if it allowed her to sense anyone entering her aura that intends her harm. She still can't pinpoint them but it'd prevent a possible ambush?


Made updates to the file based on what we've discussed so far, and some other tweaks.
Cleaned up table file
Added column for clone costs. This value is based on a power of a certain level. Realized that having the cost of the clone = the mesmer's level, she could never augment it *facepalm*.
Clarified some things about the apparition and clone.
Changed hp totals for the apparitions and clones.
Made augments Clone only.
Made augment self a signet.
Added daily caps to some class abilities and signets.
Clarified augment caps for clones(can not spend more pp on the clone+ augments than mesmer levels).
Clarified ranged melee signet.

New table
New class description doc

Critique away!


*bump*


*bumpity bump*


Wait. I think ranged melee is too good now. You can make a full attack with a greatsword will all touch attacks right?

When it was just a standard action attack that was one thing, but the full attack may be 2 dope.

Still finding time to read the rest of the changes.


Appreciated.
It's just 2d6+any enchantment bonuses. No STR, no DEX...

If it needs to go back it will, though.


I think you should make it a standard action but allow it to include strength or whatever (especially since nothing in the wording would indicate that you would not include strength to this damage) and maybe put a level prerequisite on it (like level 8 when the class would get its second attack).

Even if you don't put a level prerequisite on ranged attack, I think you might need two or three more signets that can be taken from level 1.


Ok, I'll put it back to a standard.

Yeah, I know I'm still short on signets.

I also upped their armor to medium...or, I could leave it light and have signets that raise them to medium, though they aren't really needed...


*Bump*
Waiting for Ashiel to throw in his two cents...


Guess I'll need to change the name of this, since there's an official Mesmer now...


Chronomancer ? Or maybe it should be a "Mesmer" Archetype.

Also, Never saw this homebrew before. As a GW2 player since launch, I'll have to look at that.


It's a mess, but any feedback you have would be appreciated.

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