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Does the bardic performance ability "inspire courage" affect animal companions, familiars, and summoned creatures?
Thanks. I didn't expect to get a response from you Eric! LOL
The common belief at Great Escape is that this doesn't work, and seeing as I play a conjurer with Ashley's bard every game it comes up a lot. No matter where I looked I couldn't find anything to contradict it. I'm guessing the confusion is from the pre-errata version of bardic performance being language-dependent, but even then that shouldn't affect a visual performance.
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Erik! LOL
I didn't think you could inspire animals for the longest time, either, but as you say that could be because the first CRB I purchased was an older 2nd printing. People try to rationalize that someone dancing in real life wouldn't inspire a real life animal, but a Bard's performance is Supernatural, and mind-affecting. It pretty much works on anything with a mind, with few exceptions.
Just point them to this thread or in the direction of Jared or myself.
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Yup, Gormheir uses inspire courage on animals all the time.
Gormheir also uses his grandmother's souffle recipe as his oratory text. (In a language the other PC's don't understand, which given his linguistics is pretty easy.) The humor of the situation lifts his spirits greatly.
The confusion comes in part because the bardic perfomance class feature mentions that some uses are language dependant, and so people are confused.
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People try to rationalize that someone dancing in real life wouldn't inspire a real life animalWell, this may not be dancing, but I sure as heck know that the words "Dinner Time" inspire my cat.
On the other hand, my rabbit completely ignores all verbal language, but he knows the sound of a plastic bag being shaken. Of course, he incorrectly assumes that all plastic bags are the ones with his treats in them, and that the sound means he's about to get a treat.
Design Manager
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On the other hand, my rabbit completely ignores all verbal language, but he knows the sound of a plastic bag being shaken. Of course, he incorrectly assumes that all plastic bags are the ones with his treats in them, and that the sound means he's about to get a treat.People try to rationalize that someone dancing in real life wouldn't inspire a real life animalWell, this may not be dancing, but I sure as heck know that the words "Dinner Time" inspire my cat.
Perform (shake plastic baggie), for all the multi-classed druid/bards out there.
My druid/bard yells "Puppy want to go for a ride?" whenever he wants to inspire his dog animal companion to greater acts of heroism.
Yeah, while Inspire Courage isn't language dependent, the rules for using it are.The confusion comes in part because the bardic perfomance class feature mentions that some uses are language dependant, and so people are confused.
Incorrect --
inspire courage can use audible or visual components.
It has can have audible components which deaf creatures are immune to or visual components which blind creatures are immune to, but it is not language dependent.
It only matters if you can hear or see depending on which version the bard uses.
You completely missed the joke...
You know, I now see what you did there...
I don't buy it. I think if you use the performance (bag krinkle) skill for it, you can inspire all the rabbits within range, but it won't work on your human allies (unless they eat out of a similar bag). I think you need to know and choose the right perform skill or some allies may not be affected.
The recommendations above ignore half the text for bardic performance, that it requires a performance skill that the ally must be able to perceive. Now, I don't make it too hard to choose a reasonable one. But I wouldn't allow perform (comedy) to inspire your bunny army unless you can speak with animals.
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I don't buy it. I think if you use the performance (bag krinkle) skill for it, you can inspire all the rabbits within range, but it won't work on your human allies (unless they eat out of a similar bag). I think you need to know and choose the right perform skill or some allies may not be affected.
The recommendations above ignore half the text for bardic performance, that it requires a performance skill that the ally must be able to perceive. Now, I don't make it too hard to choose a reasonable one. But I wouldn't allow perform (comedy) to inspire your bunny army unless you can speak with animals.
I really hope you're kidding.
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I don't buy it. I think if you use the performance (bag krinkle) skill for it, you can inspire all the rabbits within range, but it won't work on your human allies (unless they eat out of a similar bag). I think you need to know and choose the right perform skill or some allies may not be affected.
The recommendations above ignore half the text for bardic performance, that it requires a performance skill that the ally must be able to perceive. Now, I don't make it too hard to choose a reasonable one. But I wouldn't allow perform (comedy) to inspire your bunny army unless you can speak with animals.
What you just described is a language dependent effect.
suggestion, for example is a language dependent effect, and is explicitly called out as such.
inspire courage is only called out as mind effecting, not language dependent.
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I don't buy it. I think if you use the performance (bag krinkle) skill for it, you can inspire all the rabbits within range, but it won't work on your human allies (unless they eat out of a similar bag). I think you need to know and choose the right perform skill or some allies may not be affected.
The recommendations above ignore half the text for bardic performance, that it requires a performance skill that the ally must be able to perceive. Now, I don't make it too hard to choose a reasonable one. But I wouldn't allow perform (comedy) to inspire your bunny army unless you can speak with animals.
What you just described is a language dependent effect.
suggestion, for example is a language dependent effect, and is explicitly called out as such.
inspire courage is only called out as mind effecting, not language dependent.
Most importantly, Inspire Courage is supernatural. The reason it works on both humans and rabbits at the same time is magic - literally!
Bardic performance uses a perform skill (despite the lack of roll or ranks needed) that you must see or hear. You can choose one that works on bunnies, or one that doesn't. Bard's choice. You, as a GM, can choose to ignore that it uses this skill if you choose, and make this ability mysteriously independent of a 'bardic performance'. I call that pissing away flavor to allow players to min/max further.
'I push this button as a standard action (for now) and all my allies are inspired if they can see or hear me push this button - it's mind affecting, you know.'
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I think most fantasy I've read actually presumes music to be universal. "Music soothes the savage beast", Snow White's singing enchanting dwarves and woodland animals, etc.
Some even believe that "the inherent nature of music is shared by humans and animals alike".
Frankly, I think the precedent in culture, literature, and even in the real world is that art transcends the physical, and an inspiring song is an inspiring song regardless of whether the listener is a man or a bunny.
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If I played in a home campaign and the GM simply decided to ignore how Inspire Courage actually works, and instigated his/her own nerf of the ability, I would hope it'd be known before the campaign started, and not something that came up in the middle of a session.
I think most fantasy I've read actually presumes music to be universal. "Music soothes the savage beast", Snow White's singing enchanting dwarves and woodland animals, etc.
Some even believe that "the inherent nature of music is shared by humans and animals alike".
Frankly, I think the precedent in culture, literature, and even in the real world is that art transcends the physical, and an inspiring song is an inspiring song regardless of whether the listener is a man or a bunny.
I tend to agree - comedy, not so much.
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I wasn't kidding when I said I have a PFS bard who inspires courage with oratory performances. He's primarily an archer in combat, so his hands are too full for a musical instrument.
He could sing, I guess, but he's an ex-slave, now loyal to Andoran, so yelling "FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!" really suits him.
I also occasionally hijack lines from famous speeches. ie "Ask not what the Pathfinder Society can do for you. Ask what you can do for the Pathfinder Society!" and "The only thing we have to fear is these zombies eating our faces!"
I would say oratory would not affect animals without a speak with animals spell, for the same reason I'm not going to let you pick a lock with no tools whatsoever, even at +10 DC.
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If I played in a home campaign and the GM simply decided to ignore how Inspire Courage actually works, and instigated his/her own nerf of the ability, I would hope it'd be known before the campaign started, and not something that came up in the middle of a session.
C'mon, that's unfair. It's not unreasonable to be confused over whether the rules allow music or comedy to inspire an animal.
You could say the same comment about any rules question you don't agree with.
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If I played in a home campaign and the GM simply decided to ignore how Inspire Courage actually works, and instigated his/her own nerf of the ability, I would hope it'd be known before the campaign started, and not something that came up in the middle of a session.C'mon, that's unfair. It's not unreasonable to be confused over whether the rules allow music or comedy to inspire an animal.
You could say the same comment about any rules question you don't agree with.
That comment was more in response to Kwauss's continued assertion that Inspire Courage should not affect animals.
I would say oratory would not affect animals without a speak with animals spell, for the same reason I'm not going to let you pick a lock with no tools whatsoever, even at +10 DC.
There is a goblin feat that specifically states that, while using this feat, allies who don't understand goblin are unaffected. I read that in a way that specific trumps general and general would be that you'd be affected when not understanding the language.
When using bardic performance to inspire courage in allies, you can choose to sing in Goblin—allies who do not speak Goblin gain no benefits from this performance.
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I would say oratory would not affect animals without a speak with animals spell, for the same reason I'm not going to let you pick a lock with no tools whatsoever, even at +10 DC.
Bob nailed it.
Animals have minds, so they can be affected by a mind affecting performance. Inspire Courage doesn't say it's language dependent. Thus, animals are affected, regardless of the performance type, as long as they can hear it.
As I pointed out upthread, it's a supernatural ability. The bard is literally using the perfomance as the verbal or somatic component of a magical ability. Their allies don't need to understand (or enjoy, for that matter) the performance to be affected by the magic involved.
As I pointed out upthread, it's a supernatural ability. The bard is literally using the perfomance as the verbal or somatic component of a magical ability. Their allies don't need to understand (or enjoy, for that matter) the performance to be affected by the magic involved.
This would be correct if 1) the allies didn't need to perceive the bard and 2) it was disconnected from a skill.
Look, folks, since perform can be used untrained, my interpretation effectively poses no barriers - just use a perform skill (even if you have no ranks in it) that makes sense to inspire your audience (GM interpretation on that one). Now, If I'm your GM, I'm going to make a big deal about how badly you're performing if you choose to use a skill with no ranks in it. In fact, this interpretation gives you More options, since you can decide if you want to exclude certain 'allies' (put in quotes since you may like some more than others) from your bardic music.
In my campaign, I may pose a few additional restrictions (i.e. making bad music isn't inspiring), but those are house rules.
It is incumbent on a GM to ask a bard what perform skill he/she is using for performance each time. If only to discern visual/auditory, but I think more common sense should be applied, and there are enough rules to support injecting GM interpretation at this point. Treating it like a spell or magic button is not consistent with the RAW, when consider them all.
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As I pointed out upthread, it's a supernatural ability. The bard is literally using the perfomance as the verbal or somatic component of a magical ability. Their allies don't need to understand (or enjoy, for that matter) the performance to be affected by the magic involved.
This would be correct if 1) the allies didn't need to perceive the bard and 2) it was disconnected from a skill.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. I just checked Dictionary.com, and the very first definition for "perceive" is "to become aware of, know, or identify by means of the senses".
Once again, the target of the performance only has to be able to see or hear it, not understand or appreciate it. If it was language dependent, it would say so, as clearly stated in the Core Rulebook description. It doesn't say so for Inspire Courage. Thus, any animal ally that can hear you will be inspired by an oratory, or even comedic, performance.
And the bard already has the option of excluding whatever ally they want. Anyone using any magic power does. The word "ally" in the game always just means "whoever the caster wants to include". You don't need special rules for that.
Obviously, you can house rule it any way you want. But the rules are what they are. There's really no grey area here.
A Bard with 18 Charisma and max ranks in every Perform skill is just as good at Inspiring Courage as a Bard with 7 Charisma and no ranks in any Perform skill.
Mind-affecting.
I've already conceded that above, if you'd paid attention. It uses a skill that you don't need to be good at. The point I was trying to make is that not any perform skill will work the same. Just as I won't let a naked rogue pick a jail cell lock with his tongue no matter how good they are at disable device, I apply common sense to the situation.
That's the advantage of playing a RPG over a MMORPG, there's someone to apply such layers of common sense. Yes, the RAW left it open to allow munchkin GMs to ignore the whole issue, but with room for common sense to be applied situationally.
ironically enough most of the bardic performance are disconnectioned from the perform skill.
inspire courage works even if you have no ranks in perform, or even if somehow the bard lacks a charisma score.
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I've already conceded that above, if you'd paid attention. It uses a skill that you don't need to be good at. The point I was trying to make is that not any perform skill will work the same. Just as I won't let a naked rogue pick a jail cell lock with his tongue no matter how good they are at disable device, I apply common sense to the situation.That's the advantage of playing a RPG over a MMORPG, there's someone to apply such layers of common sense. Yes, the RAW left it open to allow munchkin GMs to ignore the whole issue, but with room for common sense to be applied situationally.
Using common sense, or what you believe it to be, while arguing about rules is among the worst things you can do.
One man's common sense is the other man's madness.
I've already conceded that above, if you'd paid attention. It uses a skill that you don't need to be good at. The point I was trying to make is that not any perform skill will work the same. Just as I won't let a naked rogue pick a jail cell lock with his tongue no matter how good they are at disable device, I apply common sense to the situation.
That's the advantage of playing a RPG over a MMORPG, there's someone to apply such layers of common sense. Yes, the RAW left it open to allow munchkin GMs to ignore the whole issue, but with room for common sense to be applied situationally.
I love applying common sense to things.
The this is, is that you need to know where to apply common sense, and how. You're applying it to make the game situationally more realistic, other people in this thread are applying common sense to figure out how best to allow a player to play their class, without overburdening them with requirements. the problem with your method here, is that you're nerfing a class that isn't all that powerful to begin with.
Now, if you applied this same "common sense" to EVERY class...
Possible proposed homebrew rules for you:
-Spellcasters must now remove the proper spell components from their component bags, and use them as actual focuses and materials, this requires them to move and take things from their bags, and as such is considered a move action. Enjoy the bat guano and rods of amber.
-You must act your stats exactly, even if your character is smarter, wiser and more charismatic than you, good luck.
-Actual survival, we get to math out food eaten, calories gained, survival check to see if we can tell if it went bad. Wait, stop buying trail rations damnit!
-Okay, you failed on that Reflex save versus that fireball, not let's see how your gear fared against it. *rolls* Not well.
-Characters wearing armor receive a minus to attack (Their ACP), as it's harder to move around in armor. Characters in no armor receive a bonus to attack as it's easier for them to move around (Monks everywhere cheered, Fighters booed, Caster's cackled (Especially the Witch's))
-Hey Gunslinger's, you wanna know what happens when bullets explode still in the gun? Well, you get to find out now! :D
-Etc.
Common sense is great, you just have to balance it against the intentions here. They weren't to, "allow munchkin GMs to ignore the whole issue" like you claim, it was to streamline the game, make it faster, make it smoother. To uncomplicate complicated things that turn away players, and make gameplay less fun, and instead more frustrating or boring.
You're welcome to homebrew rules, the game is after all, only suggestions, you can change anything you like.
Just be aware that anything you change, changes the game itself, and even small changes can cause large issues down the line. Good luck, and have fun. :)
I've already conceded that above, if you'd paid attention. It uses a skill that you don't need to be good at. The point I was trying to make is that not any perform skill will work the same. Just as I won't let a naked rogue pick a jail cell lock with his tongue no matter how good they are at disable device, I apply common sense to the situation.
That's the advantage of playing a RPG over a MMORPG, there's someone to apply such layers of common sense. Yes, the RAW left it open to allow munchkin GMs to ignore the whole issue, but with room for common sense to be applied situationally.
I love applying common sense to things.
The this is, is that you need to know where to apply common sense, and how. You're applying it to make the game situationally more realistic, other people in this thread are applying common sense to figure out how best to allow a player to play their class, without overburdening them with requirements. the problem with your method here, is that you're nerfing a class that isn't all that powerful to begin with.
Now, if you applied this same "common sense" to EVERY class...
Possible proposed homebrew rules for you:
-Spellcasters must now remove the proper spell components from their component bags, and use them as actual focuses and materials, this requires them to move and take things from their bags, and as such is considered a move action. Enjoy the bat guano and rods of amber.
-You must act your stats exactly, even if your character is smarter, wiser and more charismatic than you, good luck.
-Actual survival, we get to math out food eaten, calories gained, survival check to see if we can tell if it went bad. Wait, stop buying trail rations damnit!
-Okay, you failed on that Reflex save versus that fireball, not let's see how your gear fared against it. *rolls* Not well.
-Characters wearing armor receive a minus to attack (Their ACP), as it's harder to move around in armor. Characters in no armor receive a bonus to attack as it's easier for...
All worth considering. I was just telling you where I draw the line on common sense in this circumstance, as backed up by rules text. Some GMs can ask 'are you doing a visual or auditory bardic performance' (as required by the rules), but it seems dumb not to just ask 'which perform skill are you using?' (which also is backed up by the rules) And if they say comedy, the GM can say, "Oh sorry, you realize your allies the Borg don't have a sense of humor, so comedy won't work on them to inspire. Did you want to use something else?" Or just surprise them the first time, if you dropped enough hints.
And all spellcasting classes in PF need nerfing.
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And once again: It's magic. The creatures being inspired just need to be able to see or hear the performance, not understand it. It's just a focus for the bard's magical ability.
You can house rule it however you want, but the rules say Inspire Courage works on anything with an intelligence score, even if that int score is just a 1.
And once again: It's magic. The creatures being inspired just need to be able to see or hear the performance, not understand it. It's just a focus for the bard's magical ability.
You can house rule it however you want, but the rules say Inspire Courage works on anything with an intelligence score, even if that int score is just a 1.
Where exactly?
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Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both.
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and many such performances are language dependent (as noted in the description). A deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components.
If a bardic performance has a visual component, the targets must have line of sight to the bard for the performance to have any effect. A blind bard has a 50% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with a visual component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Blind creatures are immune to bardic performances with visual components.
Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st-level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard's performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
The bolded parts cover it.
Edited to add:
A language-dependent spell uses intelligible language as a medium for communication. If the target cannot understand or cannot hear what the caster of a language-dependant spell says, the spell fails.
A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.
So the Bardic Performance description specifically says that performances are only language dependent if they say that they are. Inspire Courage doesn't say that it is language dependent. It does say that it's mind affecting, which according to the Magic chapter, means it works on anything with an intelligence of 1 or higher.
Good enough citation, your bards can spout gibberish, or flail randomly, and anything nearby is affected so long as they're an 'ally' and have an INT score.
