Touch Spells + Fighting Defensively?


Rules Questions


Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action

Spoiler:
"You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn."

From what I've read so far, many people believe that any action beyond the "attack action" can't use Fighting Defensively. I'm challenging this. Compare this to Vital Strike and Combat Expertise:

Spoiler:
Vital Strike
"When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total."

Combat Expertise
"Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn."

Vital Strike and Combat Expertise specifically designate the attack action unlike the rules for Fighting Defensively: "when attacking" vs "when you use the attack action/when making an attack action". This wording is what prevents Vital Strike from being used along with things such as Cleave. Likewise:

Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action

Spoiler:
You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

It specifically differentiates between a full-round action and a full-attack action. This is the important part. In the section title it says "full-round action". It is clarifying that if you want to use fighting defensively while doing a full-round action, you have to use a full-attack. The rules for using it as a standard action do not do this. They only state that you must attack, not that you must specifically use the attack action.

Keep this errata in mind: "Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action." Attacking != Attack Action. There are many actions that lead to an attack, such as Alchemist Bombs, Cleave, and Touch Spells. These WOULD work with Vital Strike and Combat Expertise, except their wording specifically states you must be doing the attack action. The rules for Fighting Defensively as a standard action do not. Hence touch spells, which result in an attack, should work.

If I'm wrong I'd like to hear why. I just want to understand these rules properly.


You've laid out the argument clearly. You can fight defensively when making a free touch attack with a spell.

Most probably don't, because it turns a nearly guaranteed potent hit into a more chancy proposition, and you don't want to burn your standard action the next turn just to deliver the spell.


Majuba wrote:

You've laid out the argument clearly. You can fight defensively when making a free touch attack with a spell.

Most probably don't, because it turns a nearly guaranteed potent hit into a more chancy proposition, and you don't want to burn your standard action the next turn just to deliver the spell.

I'm actually talking about fighting defensively on the same turn you cast the spell with the free attack roll, not waiting until the next turn to use a standard action.


You ignored the part of the rule where it says "fighting defensively as a standard action" its the part before the text you listed.


Mojorat wrote:
You ignored the part of the rule where it says "fighting defensively as a standard action" its the part before the text you listed.

Casting a spell with the range "touch" and making the attack roll is a standard action.

The rule never says that you need to take the attack action. It just says that if you want to use Fighting Defensively during a standard action you must make an attack. There are many standard actions that make an attack.


No it is not. In the round you cast a spell the touch parr of the spell of a touch attack spell is a seperate action.

I can move, cast spell, touch attack.
I can cast spell, move, touch attack.
Or cast spell, touch attack, move.

However at no point is the touch attack part of the standard action. If you hold the charge you could defensively touch as a standard action no problem. You just can't do it in the round you cast the spell.

Edit as I missed something. You are correct you do not need ro do the attack action. However you do need a standard action.


Mojorat wrote:

No it is not. In the round you cast a spell the touch parr of the spell of a touch attack spell is a seperate action.

I can move, cast spell, touch attack.
I can cast spell, move, touch attack.
Or cast spell, touch attack, move.

However at no point is the touch attack part of the standard action. If you hold the charge you could defensively touch as a standard action no problem. You just can't do it in the round you cast the spell.

Edit as I missed something. You are correct you do not need ro do the attack action. However you do need a standard action.

Yeah, I'm wrong. The "touch" part is a free action and not part of the standard, so it does require a separate standard action.


In order to fight defensively as a standard action, it must fulfill both requirements; as a standard action and also an attack. So an action that is a standard action, but not an attack, does not qualify (ie. casting Align Weapon). Likewise, if it's an attack, but not a standard action, it also doesn't qualify. The touch attack granted by casting a touch spell is a Free action, not a standard. Now, if it had been casting, say, Scorching Ray, that'd be different. Otherwise, you'd just be able to cast a touch spell like Shocking Grasp and hold the charge, gaining a free bonus to AC for no actual cost of attack penalty. The presumption is a give-and-take; you make an attack at reduced attack bonus in exchange for increased defensive capacity. The same logic was applied when it was ruled that you can't use a Defending weapon just to hold and automatically gain an AC bonus because it's more of an accessory than an actual weapon.

Same goes for fighting defensively as a full-round action. It must be both a full-round action and the full-attack action. So if you had a ray that took a full-round to cast, it isn't the Full-Attack action so you could not get the Fight Defensively bonus for it. Likewise, if you had the ability to make a full-attack as a swift or free action, you'd also not be able to do it defensively. If you had the ability to make a full-attack as a standard action, then that would fall under fighting defensively as a standard so that'd still be good.


It isn't a standard action it is a free action.

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