Shred my Witch! [PFS]


Advice

Liberty's Edge

STATS
STR 11
DEX 13
CON 13
INT 19
WIS 10
CHA 10
Patron: Stars
Familiar: Greensting Scorpion
Hex: Evil Eye
Traits: Reactionary, Gifted Adept (Ear Piercing Scream)
Feats: Improved Initiative, Extra Hex (Cackle)
Spells:
Beguiling Gift
Cure Light Wounds
Ear Piercing Scream
Cause Fear
Remove Sickness
Ray of sickening
Summon Monster I
Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Planes), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Perception

Likely Progression:
2 - Hex: Fortune
3 - Feat: Alertness
4 - Hex: Slumber, +1 INT
5 - Feat: Rime Spell
6 - Hex: Misfortune
7 - Feat: Dodge
8 - Hex: Fly, +1 DEX
9 - Feat: Spell Penetration
10 - Major Hex: Ice Tomb
11 - Feat:
12 - Major Hex: Major Healing, +1 CON


You're a full caster whose focusing on debuffs, I would suggest altering the rest of your stats and only using 1 odd stat number. The 11 strength for example seems fairly worthless as you never intend to use it.

I might use:
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 19
Wis 10
Cha 10

What's your race btw?

Shadow Lodge

Alertness seems like a largely negligible feat IMO. After all, you gain its benefits as long as your familiar is within Arm's reach. I'd change that 3rd level feat to Improved Initiative, or to Accursed Hex.

Liberty's Edge

Race is human; I want the extra feat. I used my bonus feat for Improved Initiative. Thanks for reminding me that the familiar provides Alertness. I had forgotten about that. Accursed Hex looks pretty good. Or I might take Skill Focus: Perception instead of Alertness at 3rd level.

Liberty's Edge

I like the alternate stat block - the major loss I see is 5 lb carrying capacity, but that probably won't be too much of a problem.

Grand Lodge

Masterwork backpack.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Don't worry about boosting Perception with feats. I would go Acursed hex or, if you have one school you are focusing heavily on, Spell Focus.

The spell Ill Omen is going to be one of your most used. I would get it early and have a few scrolls on hand just in case you ran out.


I'd suggest swapping Misfortune and Fortune in your progression plans - dragging your enemies down is at least as good as raising your allies up, there aren't many enemy casters at low levels, and you can use it more often (since each fight is fresh new enemies, usually).


does your GM even keep up with encumberance? If not dump strength to 7.

Liberty's Edge

EsperMagic wrote:
does your GM even keep up with encumberance? If not dump strength to 7.

I do.


wait no one enforces it but you impose it on yourself?


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EsperMagic wrote:
wait no one enforces it but you impose it on yourself?

Who doesn't? Not enforcing it is dishonest. Especially in pathfinder society where you're supposed to go by RAW.


If you're even thinking of taking skill focus, take the focused study racial trait instead and get 3 for the price of one, and save Improved Initiative until level 3.


EsperMagic wrote:
wait no one enforces it but you impose it on yourself?

Yeah, it's something called a "rule."

If your group prefers to house rule it out, that's fine, but being incredulous that people are following the rules while not being policed sort of cracks me up. I'm going to hazard a guess you're not the sort of player I want in my group. When I DM, I don't particularly worry about enforcing encumbrance, but that's because I trust my players to follow the rules without my oversight.


we just ignore the bookkeeping rules, because they are more hassle then they are worth. Oh we found some gold? Hold on, lets get the weight see how we can divide it up the best so no one is carrying too much and we can balance it with all the other loot...

Trail rations and bed rolls and blah travel gear, yeah never bought we just kind of assume we eat at some point.

So yeah I drop str hard on casters because there really isnt a valid need for it with casters. technically he should probably sink Cha as well. Witches dont really need it either.

Shadow Lodge

IMO, Thomas Long has the stats right. I agree with that array.

Reactionary is a fine trait for just about anyone, especially Witch.
Boosting Initiative so that you can get Evil Eye landed early is handy. You start with a +12 bonus, which is more than enough.

I don't understand Gifted Adept: Ear Piercing Scream though. The benefit is marginal at best. Ear Piercing Scream is a decent spell but the trait just doesn't seem to fit it very well.
I think a trait that gives a bonus to Fort saves would be better. Or maybe Pragmatic Activator would be best so that you can add your Int bonus to UMD. Your spell list is limited, and this will help you get more utility options from scrolls and wands.
I would try to get an 11 or 12 Wis so that you can use scrolls off of the Cleric list.

Your spells are fine.
Ill Omen is tremendously useful. I suggest getting that asap, maybe even a wand.

I agree with Arbane; Misfortune should come before Fortune.
I suggest reading up on Slumber Hex and Ice Tomb Hex on these boards.
Those Hexes can be overpowering in many encounters and could make things a little boring after a while. Something to think about anyway.
Flight Hex should be taken by or before 5th level.

What are you planning on using Rime Spell with?
The only Witch spells that deal cold damage are Frostbite, Icicle Dagger, Ice Spears, and Cone of Cold. Frostbite requires a melee touch attack = not recommended. Ice spears is weird and dangerous to use (melee). Ice Spears isn't as good as other spells at that level. Cone of Cold is good as-is but not worth a 7th level slot IMO. I don't think Rime Spell is worth it. You'd be better off with Reach Spell.
Dodge seems a little out of place.
EvilPaladin is right about Alertness.

Suggested Feats/Hexes:
1: Improved Initiative
1Hex: Evil Eye
1Human: Extra Hex: Cackle
2Hex: Misfortune
3: Extra Hex: Flight
4Hex: Slumber or Fortune
5: Spell Focus: Necromancy or Enchantment
6Hex: Healing
7: Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy or Enchantment
8Hex: Charm (or Fortune if you took Slumber at 4th)
9: Spell Penetration
10Hex: Ice Tomb
11: Greater Spell Penetration or Reach Spell
12Hex: Greater Healing

For Major Hexes, I think that Agony and Retribution would be better (more fun) choices than Ice Tomb. Greater Healing is ok, but nothing to write home about.

Grand Lodge

EsperMagic wrote:

we just ignore the bookkeeping rules, because they are more hassle then they are worth. Oh we found some gold? Hold on, lets get the weight see how we can divide it up the best so no one is carrying too much and we can balance it with all the other loot...

Trail rations and bed rolls and blah travel gear, yeah never bought we just kind of assume we eat at some point.

So yeah I drop str hard on casters because there really isnt a valid need for it with casters. technically he should probably sink Cha as well. Witches dont really need it either.

Whenever I review a PC who dumps strength, I always do a quick encumbrance check. I'll only make an issue of it if things are obviously way out of whack.

In a home-game what you are doing is just fine. Whatever works. In PFS play what you describe is cheating, and then hoping that your GM is too busy to notice the cheat. That sucks. When I spot a player/PC like this my reaction is to become super-strict about such details. You'd probably hate my GMing style, and I'd probably loathe having you at my table. Probably best if we never meet :-)

For non-cheaters I generally handwave the encumbrance rules, too. It's too much needless extra bookkeeping. I'll only make an issue of it when someone flagrantly violates the spirit and letter of the rules by exploiting this casual approach. Then I'll seek to apply so much hurt that the player regrets choosing a cheater approach, else that player leaves. Hopefully the latter.


I think there has been some good advice but would take issue with a few things.

I do not agree with the choice of Improved Initiative. You have to be within 30 feet to get into range of your hexes. Do you really want to go first, charge up within 30 feet to land a hex and pray that that guy is not next in initiative? It is easier to pull off once you can fly, but initiative is much more important to wizards and sorcerers. Better to let the melee guys and blasters engage first and then start landing your hexes.

I don't like any of the Healing hexes. They can only be used once per day/target and with a range of touch. It could be useful but there are better choices. If you want to blast at all Empower and Intensified are good choices.

Accursed Hex and Split Hex Feats are fantastic. I cant argue Spell Focus but from the above build I personally would get rid of both healing hexes, charm, and improved initiative.

Consider Retribution for the next hex after Ice Tomb.

Shadow Lodge

pogie wrote:

I think there has been some good advice but would take issue with a few things.

I do not agree with the choice of Improved Initiative. You have to be within 30 feet to get into range of your hexes. Do you really want to go first, charge up within 30 feet to land a hex and pray that that guy is not next in initiative? It is easier to pull off once you can fly, but initiative is much more important to wizards and sorcerers. Better to let the melee guys and blasters engage first and then start landing your hexes.

I don't like any of the Healing hexes. They can only be used once per day/target and with a range of touch. It could be useful but there are better choices. If you want to blast at all Empower and Intensified are good choices.

Accursed Hex and Split Hex Feats are fantastic. I cant argue Spell Focus but from the above build I personally would get rid of both healing hexes, charm, and improved initiative.

Consider Retribution for the next hex after Ice Tomb.

You seem to have a different idea of what Initiative can be used for with a Witch than I. In my experience, generally a casting class is best served by spending the first round of combat casting a buff or control spell. A high initiative doesn't have to be used to charge in on the first round. Scoring a high initiative roll also means you go earlier on turn two after all of the other melee types have charged in and grabbed the bad guy's attention.

My witch will usually use round one to cast Mirror Image (Trickery Patron) or Hex someone with Fortune. Haste is probably a better choice, but not always.

Yeah I agree that the spots for the Healing Hexes and Charm are kind of 'throwaway' slots. I struggled to find something good to go there. Warding might work. Tongues? Disguise maybe?
What do you suggest should go there instead?

The other hexes (fortune/misfortune/evil eye/flight) are so good that I don't see myself getting much use out of anything else.
My Cartomancer will take Soothsayer Hex, but that's for a particular strategy and style of play.

Personally, I don't like Slumber and Ice Tomb. My witch will not take them. I don't really think they fit the class very well and the powers have such few limits that they seem like overkill. There are plenty of discussions/arguments on the boards that hash out the perspectives on this debate.
If Theconiel wants them, then by all means. It's just not my cup of tea.


Dennis Deadsky wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:

we just ignore the bookkeeping rules, because they are more hassle then they are worth. Oh we found some gold? Hold on, lets get the weight see how we can divide it up the best so no one is carrying too much and we can balance it with all the other loot...

Trail rations and bed rolls and blah travel gear, yeah never bought we just kind of assume we eat at some point.

So yeah I drop str hard on casters because there really isnt a valid need for it with casters. technically he should probably sink Cha as well. Witches dont really need it either.

Whenever I review a PC who dumps strength, I always do a quick encumbrance check. I'll only make an issue of it if things are obviously way out of whack.

In a home-game what you are doing is just fine. Whatever works. In PFS play what you describe is cheating, and then hoping that your GM is too busy to notice the cheat. That sucks. When I spot a player/PC like this my reaction is to become super-strict about such details. You'd probably hate my GMing style, and I'd probably loathe having you at my table. Probably best if we never meet :-)

For non-cheaters I generally handwave the encumbrance rules, too. It's too much needless extra bookkeeping. I'll only make an issue of it when someone flagrantly violates the spirit and letter of the rules by exploiting this casual approach. Then I'll seek to apply so much hurt that the player regrets choosing a cheater approach, else that player leaves. Hopefully the latter.

Ive never played PFS before. We are on the last pages of book 6 for kingmaker and encumberance never got brought up once. Well maybe once but thats because someone was trying to pick up and carry a statue. Even then it was just what's your strength score? Yeah no go.

Liberty's Edge

Tomos wrote:

...

I don't understand Gifted Adept: Ear Piercing Scream though. The benefit is marginal at best. Ear Piercing Scream is a decent spell but the trait just doesn't seem to fit it very well.
...

The damage from Ear Piercing Scream scales with level - at level 1 it does no damage, but at level 2 it does 1d6. That was my reasoning.


Tomos wrote:
I would try to get an 11 or 12 Wis so that you can use scrolls off of the Cleric list.

While having a better Will save is good, a witch doesn't use Wis to cast a spell from a cleric scroll. If you succeed on the UMD, it is treated as a spell on YOUR list, which uses YOUR stat: Int.

----

As to the utility of a healing hex, remember, it goes from CLW to CMW at level 5. While not a large amount of healing, it saves on healing spells that may not be available. Does your party have pets that get hurt? Even more use. Enter a town with many hurt? Free healing for all for the price of a little time and you get their gratitude. Meet a dying messenger? Fix em up a little without using any consumable resource, and have lots more time to get the message.

While you will never be a primary healer, you can be a welcome addition to any healing poor party. Also, the party healer will like you because they are called upon less often to cast healing spells. Plus, I have heard that each PFS character should be able to handle their own healing needs if they are not to be considered a drain on the party. Martials do this by getting the happy stick (Wand of CLW) and letting the healer use it on them. Casters do this by spells (CLW, Infernal Healing). All can do this with potions. You can also help keep summoned critters in a little longer with a little healing.

/cevah

Shadow Lodge

Cevah wrote:
Tomos wrote:
I would try to get an 11 or 12 Wis so that you can use scrolls off of the Cleric list.

While having a better Will save is good, a witch doesn't use Wis to cast a spell from a cleric scroll. If you succeed on the UMD, it is treated as a spell on YOUR list, which uses YOUR stat: Int.

/cevah

This is incorrect. The first UMD check puts the spell on your list, but you still have to make the second check to emulate the ability score.

I completely agree with the rest of your post.

@theconiel:
pretty sure "1d6 of sonic damage per two caster levels" means 1d6 at level 1, 2d6 at level 2, 3d6 at level 4, 4d6 at level 6, and 5d6 at level 10
It's awkwardly worded and a different reading could mean that the second d6 doesn't arrive until level 4. However, it would be strange indeed if a 1st level spell did 0d6 damage at 1st level.
It's not a crowd pleaser of a spell, but it does do sonic damage; it is extremely unusual to find a creature that is resistant to it.
I can see why you assigned the trait to it, but it seems like there are many other better choices.

Liberty's Edge

Tomos, I disagree with your analysis. Whenever you have a fraction, you round down, unless otherwise specified.
A close range spell, for example, has a range of 25' + 5' per two caster levels. The range is 25' at first level, 30' and second level, 35' at fourth level etc.
In any case, I might do better to take Clever Wordplay for a trait, applied to UMD.


Consider Student of Philosophy trait, and dump Cha to get some more points, so that you can still be somewhat useful in talking to NPCs.

In PFS you need knowledge checks, (mostly for creature ID) and diplomacy checks. These are pretty much used multiple times every game.

Also consider buying a wand of unseen servant to carry all your stuff for 2PP (1st level wand) 50 hours of carrying anything but your scrolls/potions/wands is plenty for the life of a PFS character, and dropping Str to 8.

So far as the Ear-Piercing scream question, I have never seen anyone who would tell you that a 1st level spell has no effect at 1st level. Even though it is oddly written, it starts at 1d6. I have seen people who only give the 2nd d6 at 4th level.

You also have to consider that your only hex at 1st level has no effect on undead (mind-effecting), and instead take healing and evil eye at 1st, or misfortune and cackle at 1st. You can also take advantage of the PFS rebuild rules, and use the rebuild rules to change them out when you get your 2nd hex at 2nd level.

I'd play stats Str 8 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 19 Wis 10 Cha 7. You want 2 odd stats for PFS that you plan to raise at 4 and 8. Con will matter around level 8 for the massive AOE situations.

Trait Student of Philosophy, and Pragmatic Activator. With the +4 familiar and the 3 dex, your init is fine.


Tomos wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Tomos wrote:
I would try to get an 11 or 12 Wis so that you can use scrolls off of the Cleric list.

While having a better Will save is good, a witch doesn't use Wis to cast a spell from a cleric scroll. If you succeed on the UMD, it is treated as a spell on YOUR list, which uses YOUR stat: Int.

/cevah

This is incorrect. The first UMD check puts the spell on your list, but you still have to make the second check to emulate the ability score.

How does having a good Wis score help your cast an Int based spell? The spell is on your list and cast by you, an Int based caster, not by the scroll. If an Oracle scribed the scroll, does it now become a need for charisma? Do you even know if a Wisdom or Charisma based caster scribed the scroll? I would say you usually don't. This is why PFS got rid of the arcane/divine divide for scrolls. It was too much bookkeeping to keep track of, especially when the modules and APs rarely even said what type of caster wrote it.

Tomos wrote:

@theconiel:

pretty sure "1d6 of sonic damage per two caster levels" means 1d6 at level 1, 2d6 at level 2, 3d6 at level 4, 4d6 at level 6, and 5d6 at level 10
It's awkwardly worded and a different reading could mean that the second d6 doesn't arrive until level 4. However, it would be strange indeed if a 1st level spell did 0d6 damage at 1st level.
It's not a crowd pleaser of a spell, but it does do sonic damage; it is extremely unusual to find a creature that is resistant to it.

Math errors:

Ear Piercing Scream does no damage at 1st level, but still dazes unless the save is made. At 2nd and 3rd levels, it does 1d6 plus daze. At 4th and 5th it does 2d6 plus daze. At 6th and 7th, it does 3d6 plus daze. At 8th and 9th it does 4d6 plus daze. At 10th level and up it does 5d6 plus daze.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

The spell Ear Piercing Scream does have an effect other than sonic damage: it dazes the opponent for one round. If the spell inflicted damage at first level, the spell description would include the language, "minimum 1d6". It does not.

Shadow Lodge

Theconiel wrote:

Tomos, I disagree with your analysis. Whenever you have a fraction, you round down, unless otherwise specified.

A close range spell, for example, has a range of 25' + 5' per two caster levels. The range is 25' at first level, 30' and second level, 35' at fourth level etc.
In any case, I might do better to take Clever Wordplay for a trait, applied to UMD.

It appears you are correct about ear-piercing scream:

Ultimate Magic Errata thread, SKR's official response.

UM Errata Thread wrote:
Page 218: (Possibly not errata) Ear-piercing scream spell, based on the description, a 1st-level character actually wouldn't do any damage with this spell, but they would pull off the dazing ability of the spell. It's hard to tell if this was intentional or not.
SKR wrote:
Not errata.

That spell is garbage IMO. You have to wait too long to get any real benefit out of it. Your idea to use Gifted Adept is sharp, but I don't think it's worth it.

Clever Wordplay is great. I think it's superior to the Gifted Adept trait for Witch.

You will benefit from scrolls. Any caster suffers during low levels because of the limited spells/day available.
Make sure you grab a crossbow and some alchemical weapons to supplement your offense until you get past the rough parts.

@MaxMaxer
Student of Philosophy is good, but I think the source is a little obscure. Easier to just take Clever Wordplay.
Ear-Piercing Scream definitely does not award 1d6 damage until Caster Level 2.
I don't endorse your stat array, but it's a choice.

Shadow Lodge

Cevah wrote:
Tomos wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Tomos wrote:
I would try to get an 11 or 12 Wis so that you can use scrolls off of the Cleric list.

While having a better Will save is good, a witch doesn't use Wis to cast a spell from a cleric scroll. If you succeed on the UMD, it is treated as a spell on YOUR list, which uses YOUR stat: Int.

/cevah

This is incorrect. The first UMD check puts the spell on your list, but you still have to make the second check to emulate the ability score.
How does having a good Wis score help your cast an Int based spell? The spell is on your list and cast by you, an Int based caster, not by the scroll. If an Oracle scribed the scroll, does it now become a need for charisma? Do you even know if a Wisdom or Charisma based caster scribed the scroll? I would say you usually don't. This is why PFS got rid of the arcane/divine divide for scrolls. It was too much bookkeeping to keep track of, especially when the modules and APs rarely even said what type of caster wrote it.

It's simple:

UMD rules wrote:
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.

You're not the first (or last) to bring this up, or the first (or last) to omit the bolded text from the UMD rules.

In home games, scrolls are scribed by whichever class scribed them, or whatever the GM says.
In PFS, they are scribed by the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard unless they're not on any of those lists. For example, a scroll of CLW would be scribed by a Cleric, but automatically usable by any caster with CLW on their list. You are right that this simplifies things a great deal.
What it doesn't do is make Cleric-only spells easy to use by any caster with a decent UMD score. You still have to emulate the Wisdom score for Cleric-only spells.

I suggest a 11 or 12 Wis so that a Witch (or other arcane caster) can use utility scrolls from the Cleric list.
For example, a Witch with 12 Wis could activate a scroll of Restoration, Lesser with a DC 22 UMD check, which is possible at 1st level (+8 bonus). Making the check to emulate the ability score would be impossible (d20+8-15).
It's a way to be more flexible and useful as a caster. Utility casting is very useful in PFS, especially when you're removing nasty stuff with it.
The Witch spell list is woefully short; Wizard utility scrolls are a cinch, but Cleric utility scrolls can also be useable if you boost Wis a bit.

Of course, there are other advantages to boosting Wisdom.

EDIT: It's not impossible to emulate the ability score. It's just really hard.


Tomos wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Tomos wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Tomos wrote:
I would try to get an 11 or 12 Wis so that you can use scrolls off of the Cleric list.

While having a better Will save is good, a witch doesn't use Wis to cast a spell from a cleric scroll. If you succeed on the UMD, it is treated as a spell on YOUR list, which uses YOUR stat: Int.

/cevah

This is incorrect. The first UMD check puts the spell on your list, but you still have to make the second check to emulate the ability score.
How does having a good Wis score help your cast an Int based spell? The spell is on your list and cast by you, an Int based caster, not by the scroll. If an Oracle scribed the scroll, does it now become a need for charisma? Do you even know if a Wisdom or Charisma based caster scribed the scroll? I would say you usually don't. This is why PFS got rid of the arcane/divine divide for scrolls. It was too much bookkeeping to keep track of, especially when the modules and APs rarely even said what type of caster wrote it.

It's simple:

UMD rules wrote:
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.

You're not the first (or last) to bring this up, or the first (or last) to omit the bolded text from the UMD rules.

In home games, scrolls are scribed by whichever class scribed them, or whatever the GM says.
In PFS, they are scribed by the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard unless they're not on any of those lists. For example, a scroll of CLW would be scribed by a Cleric, but automatically usable by any caster with CLW on their list. You are right that this simplifies things a great deal.
What it doesn't do is make Cleric-only spells easy to use by any caster with a decent UMD score. You still have to emulate the Wisdom score for Cleric-only spells.

<snip>

EDIT: It's not impossible to emulate the ability score. It's just really hard.

Standard rules for casting from a scroll are:

CRB p490 wrote:

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

  • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
  • The user must have the spell on her class list.
  • The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check.

UMD rules are:

CRB p109 wrote:

Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

You make the assumption the requisite ability is based on the scroll. That is not actually said, in either place on casting scrolls. Will an Oracle need high Wisdom to cast a cleric scroll? The rules for UMD and regular casting are the same except for the DC. According to you, the Oracle would need Wisdom, despite the fact no one plays that way. Ditto a Sorcerer needing high Int to cast a Wizard scroll.

This illogical conclusion is why I reject the premise you assume.

/cevah

Shadow Lodge

You know what? I think you're right.

After re-reading and re-reading the UMD rules, and seeing this thread, especially Gauss' post, I think I misread part of those rules.

When a successful UMD check allows you to treat the scroll as if you had the spell on your spell list, you use your relevant casting stat.

Non-casters would usually need to make the Emulate An Ability Score check, so they would benefit from higher mental stats in this context.

However:

Cevah wrote:
You make the assumption the requisite ability is based on the scroll. That is not actually said, in either place on casting scrolls. Will an Oracle need high Wisdom to cast a cleric scroll? The rules for UMD and regular casting are the same except for the DC. According to you, the Oracle would need Wisdom, despite the fact no one plays that way. Ditto a Sorcerer needing high Int to cast a Wizard scroll.

This is a bit of a straw man. I was not arguing that point.

My belief was based on an overly-strict reading of the UMD rules.

Clerics/Oracles have different sets of casting stats for the same spells.
Clerics/Wizards have different sets of casting stats for different spells.
Since the minimum ability score language follows directly after the 'have the spell on your class list' language with no exclusions, it follows that both are required.

What this means is that the caster can't activate a 9th level scroll when they have only a 18 in their casting stat. That's the only context where the second UMD check is needed for a caster. I misunderstood.
...

To get back on track for this thread:
I think we can agree that for the OP's Witch, a UMD score based off of needing to make that DC 20+CL check reliably is called for. Also, having a respectable scroll library (and a Handy Haversack) is a good idea when we consider the limitations of the Hex ability and the limitations of having only a few spell slots available at low levels.


Tomos wrote:
You know what? I think you're right.

:-)

Tomos wrote:

However:

Cevah wrote:
stuff
This is a bit of a straw man. I was not arguing that point.

?

Then what were we arguing?

Tomos wrote:
My belief was based on an overly-strict reading of the UMD rules.

I think our difference was what was meant by "the relevant ability".

Tomos wrote:
What this means is that the caster can't activate a 9th level scroll when they have only a 18 in their casting stat. That's the only context where the second UMD check is needed for a caster. I misunderstood.

Agreed.

Tomos wrote:

To get back on track for this thread:

I think we can agree that for the OP's Witch, a UMD score based off of needing to make that DC 20+CL check reliably is called for. Also, having a respectable scroll library (and a Handy Haversack) is a good idea when we consider the limitations of the Hex ability and the limitations of having only a few spell slots available at low levels.

Between the hex class feature, and the spamability of cantrips (guidance, resistance, and touch of fatigue), I don't think casting scrolls is quite so needed. Very useful, but not required. My own ninja/witch has a UMD of 21, and can reliably do minimal scrolls. A lot also depends on your play style. If you insist on winning battles by nova, you win quickly but soon run dry. If you hoard your resources and play smart, you may have resources to use for many more battles before running dry. I prefer slow and sure.

/cevah


Ability Focus (Slumber Hex)
Split Hex
Accursed Hex
Flight

Shadow Lodge

Driver 325 yards wrote:

Ability Focus (Slumber Hex)

Split Hex
Accursed Hex
Flight

Ability Focus is not a legal feat for PFS.


Race: You don't have one, but it can guide your choices. I will assume you are picking a high dex/int race. Maybe go Elf and either be immune to sleep or alternatively be better at putting people to sleep.
STATS
STR 11 : Tank to 7 and find ways around low strength (mule cords for yourself, unseen servant and mount spell, buy a mule, etc... Maybe just start a thread on how to get around low strength. However, you are wasting points here.
DEX 13 : Make it 14 before racial bonuses.
CON 13 : Make it 14 before racial bonuses.
INT 19 : Make it 17 before racial bonuses.
WIS 10 : Make it 14 before racial bonuses.
CHA 10 : Tank to 7
Patron: Stars - Choose Deception or Occult
Familiar: Greensting Scorpion Great choice, but Compsognathus is better
Hex: Evil Eye Slumber should be your first hex
Traits: Reactionary, Gifted Adept (Ear Piercing Scream) Reactionary is great, but gifted adept is a waste. There are so many options, but lets say pick up a trait that gives you stealth as a class feat
Feats: Improved Initiative, Extra Hex (Cackle) - Extra Hex is over rated. As you advance you will find that you will have too many hexes to choose. They are not all great.
Spells:
Beguiling Gift: Garbage. If you are an elf go Blend
Cure Light Wounds
Ear Piercing Scream
Cause Fear I guess at lower levels its okay. I would rather have Enlarge Person which is good from beginning to the end of time.
Remove Sickness
Ray of sickening
Summon Monster I Garbage, go Glitterdust
Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Planes), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Perception: Looks good, but I would get rid of spell craft and go stealth. Let someone else ID magic weapons.

Likely Progression:
2 - Hex: Fortune
3 - Feat: Alertness
4 - Hex: Slumber, +1 INT
5 - Feat: Rime Spell
6 - Hex: Misfortune
7 - Feat: Dodge
8 - Hex: Fly, +1 DEX
9 - Feat: Spell Penetration
10 - Major Hex: Ice Tomb
11 - Feat:
12 - Major Hex: Major Healing, +1 CON

this progression is horrible, but the advice up top hopefully covers changes. I will say again, accurse hex feat should be early on to allow you two tries at the slumber. For instance, why would you want to wait until 8th level to fly. In fact, take it a fourth level so you can fly at 5th.

Shadow Lodge

Driver 325 yards wrote:
Race: You don't have one, but it can guide your choices. I will assume you are picking a high dex/int race. Maybe go Elf and either be immune to sleep or alternatively be better at putting people to sleep.

I agree

Driver 325 yards wrote:


STATS
STR 11 : Tank to 7 and find ways around low strength (mule cords for yourself, unseen servant and mount spell, buy a mule, etc... Maybe just start a thread on how to get around low strength. However, you are wasting points here.
DEX 13 : Make it 14 before racial bonuses.
CON 13 : Make it 14 before racial bonuses.
INT 19 : Make it 17 before racial bonuses.
WIS 10 : Make it 14 before racial bonuses.
CHA 10 : Tank to 7

I think tanking stats is a mistake, but I see your reasoning. Witch doesn't really need to haul around a lot of junk.

Muleback Cords are not PFS legal, and are silly unless it's on a greatsword Barbarian with flowing brown hair and a loincloth.
Driver 325 yards wrote:


Patron: Stars - Choose Deception or Occult

All good choices. I prefer Trickery (Mirror Image)

Driver 325 yards wrote:


Familiar: Greensting Scorpion Great choice, but Compsognathus is better

Unless you are going to use it offensively, the scorpion is better. When a Witch's familiar dies, it's bad news. A scorpion can hang out in a pocket and never be in danger.

Driver 325 yards wrote:


Traits: Reactionary, Gifted Adept (Ear Piercing Scream) Reactionary is great, but gifted adept is a waste. There are so many options, but lets say pick up a trait that gives you stealth as a class feat

Stealth is a decent choice for Traits, but I disagree that Gifted Adept is a waste. Any of the Charisma based skills would be nice to have your int bonus applied to. Depends on personal style.

Driver 325 yards wrote:


Feats: Improved Initiative, Extra Hex (Cackle) - Extra Hex is over rated. As you advance you will find that you will have too many hexes to choose. They are not all great.

I disagree only because this is a PFS build. Most play happens at the lower levels and getting early access definitely has a value.

Driver 325 yards wrote:


Spells:
Beguiling Gift: Garbage. If you are an elf go Blend
Cure Light Wounds
Ear Piercing Scream
Cause Fear I guess at lower levels its okay. I would rather have Enlarge Person which is good from beginning to the end of time.
Remove Sickness
Ray of sickening
Summon Monster I Garbage, go Glitterdust

I agree with all of this^^

Driver 325 yards wrote:


Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Planes), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Perception: Looks good, but I would get rid of spell craft and go stealth. Let someone else ID magic weapons.

I vigorously disagree. Tanking Spellcraft is a terrible idea for a Witch (or Wizard). You will not be able to reliably add spells to your familiar if you don't have a decent Spellcraft bonus. I would get rid of Knowledge: Nature and go with Stealth, if the choice had to be made.


Driver 325 yards wrote:
STR 11 : Tank to 7 and find ways around low strength (mule cords for yourself, unseen servant and mount spell, buy a mule, etc... Maybe just start a thread on how to get around low strength. However, you are wasting points here.

Getting around low strength costs money. You don't have much at low level. Worse, if you are overloaded, it has major impact on speed and AC. I started a character at 8 and had to be very careful about what I carried. At 7, you get #70/3 (=23.33) before you incur the penalty [Max dex of +3 and armor check of 3 which applies to all strength and dexterity skills].

Driver 325 yards wrote:
CHA 10 : Tank to 7

Enchanting is an important part of the Witch spell list. That uses opposed charisma checks. It also is important to the UMD skill, specifically listed by the OP as desired.

Driver 325 yards wrote:

Spells:

Summon Monster I Garbage, go Glitterdust

You do realize you are suggesting a 2nd level spell?

SM1 is weak at first level, even at second. The problem is the duration. I recommend Mage Armor.
Driver 325 yards wrote:

Skills:

Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Planes), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Perception: Looks good, but I would get rid of spell craft and go stealth. Let someone else ID magic weapons.

Spellcraft is also needed to learn spells. It is needed to counter spells. It is often used for crafting. Usual recommendation is to maximize until at least mid levels.

DC to learn a spell is 10+SL. Without any skill points, the OP would have a rank of 4, and would need +7 to learn a 1st level spell. However, since it is a trained only skill, the Witch would never learn any spells, and could only gain the patron spells.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

Watching the discussions among the other posters is quite interesting.

I dislike dropping any stat below 8, and really I prefer not to decrease any stat below 10.
Why?
I don't like penalties, but that is minor. My primary reason for never "dumping" any stat is ability score damage. For example, one of my characters just suffered 3 points of STR damage, and it would have been much more if I had not made my fortitude saves. If I had been starting with a STR of 7, I would now have STR 4! The higher the sore to start with, the more buffer I have before I become paralyzed, unconscious or dead, depending on which score is damaged.
Of course, as a witch, I will be actively trying to avoid mêlée. But not everything that damages ability scores results from mêlée, and mêlée is not always avoidable.

As a caster, I would never skimp on Spellcraft. As has been pointed out, adding spells to a familiar (other than spells gained by leveling) requires Spellcraft. Besides, when enemies cast spells, I want to know what they are doing. The more I know, the better I can adapt my own tactics.

Liberty's Edge

Oh, and I disagree that Beguiling Gift "garbage". I have seen the spell used to great effect in combat. An enemy drinking a flagon of wine (and provoking attacks of opportunity) is far preferable to an enemy swinging his axe and using Great Cleave.

Grand Lodge

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WoW as a Person who has played several witches. i can say beguiling gift is great. My main Witch that is now a level 14 "Halfling Jinx" witch I cant recommend halfling and the jinx trait enough its an awesome option Evil eye giving -7 to all saves is a game changer especially since the witch is about 75% Save or suck spells (or hexes) don't let people talk you out of taking icy prison ... most importantly it is often your only defense against Undead, Golems, Dragons, and other things immune to all of your mind affecting spells. as a witch that is most of them.

But back to Humphry. he was "Chef" and made Pies (had craft PieMaking maxed) always make sure your pies are big and would take two hands to carry that is how "Beguiling gift" works best. if your not the good type you can Poison your Pies before casting "Beguiling gift"

what is also great about "beguiling gift" is when an enemy decides to close in on you its a great getaway spell.. just remember to not stick around waiting for their critique on your magnificent Pie. (I often get lost in the moment of Pie eating bliss)


unfortunately the ice tomb hex has no effect whatsoever on undead or constructs


plaidwandering wrote:
unfortunately the ice tomb hex has no effect whatsoever on undead or constructs

It might do a little cold damage.

There's a spell called Icy Prison, but it's not on the witch list.

I wouldn't bother with the Charm hex - the duration on it is so short that it looks to be nearly useless.

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