Harrow Cards Only: Is Paizo Money-Grabbing Us?


Pathfinder Society

Liberty's Edge

I noticed something recently that made me think. I was reading a forum thread about the particular Harrow system. I thought to myself:
"OH MAN! I was going to bring my Tarot cards to help role play my Oracle (you know her, she's got her own extremely technical forum thread in which I misuse the term "Meta") but this is awesome. There's whole ARCHETYPES FOR THIS STUFF!!!"
Put simply, I got excited. Before I rushed to buy the PDF of the Harrow Handbook, though, I checked the additional resources to make sure it was PFS legal, as that's the only time I can really play.
I discovered it is PFS legal, but only if you use the licensed Harrow Deck, and not the dice or playing card system.

This struck me as very odd. I mean, really, really odd. The Dice and playing card system are naturally implemented for these archetypes. So why aren't they legal? I tried to think up many reasons, but it all funneled into a single reason: Money Grabbing

Now, let me make this clear: I do NOT under ANY circumstances, wanna blame Paizo for something. I love Paizo. I fell in love with Paizo back when I found the Core Rule Book in a Military Shoppette in Germany (i was like... 8? 9 maybe?). That was back when it was nothing but a Core Rulebook and a Bestiary. I may not be good at PFS, but I LOVE paizo and their awesome game.
So why would the company I know and love so much do something like that?

So I ask: Do YOU as the community, know why else?
Perhaps, if I'm right, and it's just a money grabbing thing, can we get the rules changed up, because some of us aren't lucky enough to have pay checks yet, and can't afford the book and the Harrow Deck- at least, not with ACG coming out next monthe ;)

Thanks guys, and again: No disrespect to Paizo. Don't read it that way.

Dark Archive 5/5

if you dont want to buy the harrow deck - don't play a harrower.......

Liberty's Edge

wellsmv wrote:
if you dont want to buy the harrow deck - don't play a harrower.......

The problem is, I want to, but I can't afford the cards and ACG, now can I? I'll get them aventually, but...

The real problem is why can't I just use playing cards? They have an option for that in the Harrow Handbook.

5/5

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Until recently, you couldn't even play anything that used a harrow deck. They finally opened it up when they got a new set of cards in, but only requested you use their deck. It's not that much trouble.

After all, if you want something from the Additional Resources, expect to buy the Additional Resource. In this case, part of the Additional Resource needed is a set of Harrow Cards.

4/5 ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This is something I could see changing in the long run.

Something to note is that all Harrow related material has been not-legal in PFS until very recently.

Meaning it's new and unknown to a lot of PFS GMs. I like the idea of requiring the actual cards, I also think it helps a lot with the flavor.

All that said, if it works well I could potentially see the change you want in the long run.

Dark Archive 5/5

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PFS is made to support Paizo products....

since they make the cards for this purpose it is required...

Shadow Lodge

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For the longest time in PFS, absolutely nothing Harrow related was legal, until the Harrow Handbook came out. In an attempt to make most of the Harrow Handbook legal, my understanding is that John and Mike discussed options with the VOs in their private little hidden forum, and the answer that was arrived at is what exists currently. You must present a physical Paizo publishing Harrow deck, and you must allow the GM to cut the deck and or examine the deck whenever it is used. My understanding is that this is mainly to prevent cheating. Additionally, the Harrow Handbook does not discuss how to emulate the Harrow deck with dice or playing cards. The Inner Sea World Guide discusses how to emulate the deck with dice, but not normal playing cards, AFAIK there is no detailed way to emulate a harrow deck with normal playing cards or tarot cards.

Also remember that PFS at its very nature is part of Paizo's marketing strategy, if PFS does not make Paizo money then it won't be supported.

EDIT: Ninjas, everywhere.

Liberty's Edge

Pirate Rob wrote:

This is something I could see changing in the long run.

Something to note is that all Harrow related material has been not-legal in PFS until very recently.

Meaning it's new and unknown to a lot of PFS GMs. I like the idea of requiring the actual cards, I also think it helps a lot with the flavor.

All that said, if it works well I could potentially see the change you want in the long run.

I definitely agree, flavor is important. It's not a huge deal.

And if it's a new thing that originally wasn't available period, then I'm glad it's available now.

Liberty's Edge

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Okay, I didn't realize it's a new system. In that case, I understand why they want to stick to only cards for now.
Okay, so Paizo isn't trying to scam us. I knew it all along. I NEVER DOUBTED YOU PAIZO I'M SORRY I STILL LOVE YOU AND ALWAYS HAVE!
Haha. Thanks for your help. I'd like to repeat myself one more time that I didn't suspect Paizo of scamming us, I was just really confused and hoping to maybe see a rule change.
And who knows? My GM's understands my monetary situation. Maybe he/she will let it slide, and let me play with normal cards until I can get the funds.

Dark Archive 5/5

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if its a pfs game then you need the harrow cards- no exceptions....

Shadow Lodge

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wellsmv wrote:
if its a pfs game then you need the harrow cards- no exceptions....

Even if you aren't playing someone who uses them, they are nice to have, though I wish they had a little different art.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

At the end of the day, they're a business, not a charity.

You're always welcome to play a home game in the way you're talking about, but this is organised play.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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We love you too, Brom the Obnoxiously Awesome.

3/5

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I you love it, why are you bothered they are taking actions to ensure they earn money to continue making great products?


I understand why is could be seen as a money grabbing strategy, but it's really not, or, at the very least, there is practical reasoning as well as economic for the choice to require a Harrow deck for Harrow based classed and abilities.

With the dice rolling simulation method, while close enough for home games, does not have accurate probability. when, for example, you take a card from a 20 card deck, assuming there is only one copy of the card in the deck, you have a 1/20 chance to draw the card. If you draw from it again, you now have a 1/19 chance to draw one specific card, and so on. With dice, you can't replicate how the draw probability changes when cards get taken from the deck.

furthermore, there's more certainty for a GM when a pfs player brings an actual harrow deck over a deck made of proxies. while it's still fully possible to cheat using paizo bought products, it's easier to cheat using a proxy deck.

So, while it also serves to require people to purchase paizo products, it does have some rational reasoning beyond that

Grand Lodge 4/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

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The reason we decided the way we did is it is a lot of new stuff for GMs to tackle at one time, especially if they've had little or no exposure. We didn't want GMs to have to worry about three different ways to adjudicate the same rules system, with Harrow cards, normal cards, and dice. With making it standard across the board, using only the Harrow deck, the hope is that most GMs become familiar with mechanics much more quickly, thus ensuring that gameplay does not bog down. We may reevaluate in the future, but all Harrow related mechanics have only been legal for a month. Let's see how it goes for a year or so before even deciding if changes are needed.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

I do love the name...

You could always see if some one in your local group would let you borrow a deck when you are both at the same game day.

This would let you meet the requirement of 'having' the physical deck... until you scrape together the funds for your own...

I'm hoping to get a chance to skim thought a copy of the Harrower's Handbook before I grab a Harrow Deck...

Liberty's Edge

Finlanderboy wrote:
I you love it, why are you bothered they are taking actions to ensure they earn money to continue making great products?

I'm not. I understand that as a business, they have the full right to do any sort of Money-Grabbing scheme they want, and it's my choice whether I choose to support it or not. I just refused to believe that a company this awesome would sink to such a level.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:
The reason we decided the way we did is it is a lot of new stuff for GMs to tackle at one time, especially if they've had little or no exposure. We didn't want GMs to have to worry about three different ways to adjudicate the same rules system, with Harrow cards, normal cards, and dice. With making it standard across the board, using only the Harrow deck, the hope is that most GMs become familiar with mechanics much more quickly, thus ensuring that gameplay does not bog down. We may reevaluate in the future, but all Harrow related mechanics have only been legal for a month. Let's see how it goes for a year or so before even deciding if changes are needed.

I understand that now, but I had no clue before. I can definitely see, after reading the Harrower's Handbook, why you chose to do this. I guess the playing card and dice system wasn't quite as well implemented as I expected, so it makes perfect sense to limit it.

It's funny. It's almost like a big, open play test.

Grand Lodge 5/5

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Brom the Obnoxiously Awesome wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
I you love it, why are you bothered they are taking actions to ensure they earn money to continue making great products?
I'm not. I understand that as a business, they have the full right to do any sort of Money-Grabbing scheme they want, and it's my choice whether I choose to support it or not. I just refused to believe that a company this awesome would sink to such a level.

The fact that you call it a "Money Grabbing Scheme" is the problem I have. No company that produces product and then uses it in their game and furthers their own product through it to me is not a scheme.. nor money grabbing. I know you are ok with Paizo promoting their own product and such. But you have to realize it is basic marketing practice when a company does produce their products they are going to do their best to promote their product and try and get you as a consumer to use them as much as possible.

Mike Brock put it succinctly though in that they are trying to get it so that the GM does not have to use 3 different rules systems for the same thing. Speaking as one of those GM's I am grateful for that as I do personally do not want to use 3 different systems where 1 will suffice. So having to make sure the person using a harrowing deck actually has one made by Paizo.. I do not have a problem with it.

So I do not see this as a a company "sinking" to a level but as a marketing practice like any other company. But also as a rules consolidation for which I am grateful. Any company that does this though is not sinking to a level. A company that you have a "need" of their product and actually can not live without and then forces you to pay more and more for said product is scamming you. But a company that gives you a choice to use their products and you whether you choose to do so or not is your choice but not a scam. Just an FYI... I know a rather long winded one. Sorry :)

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

That and the fact that the Harrow deck is 6 suits of 9 cards. Even with a Standard 'hoyle' deck of Poker/Playing cards, you don't get the right number of suits and would need a X=Y chart to use as a Harrow deck.

For the time being, at least, this really is he best solution...

Now to start working on a home-made 'prop' set...

-

An official Harrow deck for PFS rules compliance and a hand-made Prop set for show/fluff/atmosphere...

Probably shouldn't make it an 8-bit set though...

-

Paizo, no fair using my childhood love of the X-Men against me... looked through the Harrow Handbook and found Gambit... must make...

Liberty's Edge

Yes, I understand now. I know. The only reason I used the term "money-grabbing" is because I didn't know what else to call it? "Sales Strategy"? Might have been better, but idk.
I understand now that it's not a scheme or a tactic to push product, only that the Harrow deck is the best suited to the task. Without being too familiar with the system, I didn't know that, but I know that now. I understand why they chose to do this, that it's a new system, etc.
Also, I'd like the world to know that I now own a copy of the Harrower's Handbook, and by working on my Grandfathers boat, I earned the funds to buy the cards, so DONT WORRY. I'm good to go.
So thank you guys, please don't hate me anymore, I understand.

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