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Situation: Big Dumb Fighter knows that Sneaky Rogue is lurking nearby under the effects on an invisibility spell. BDF opts to ready an action for when SR "breaks" her invisibility by attacking. SR obliges.
Question: Does BDR's readied action (a standard attack) go off before the rogue's attack? Or after?
Note: I guess what I'm asking is, "When does an invisible attacker become visible after attacking? When the swing begins? Or when the attack hits or misses?"
You break invisibility after the attack.
The fighter's choice of wording is rather awkward in this situation -- if he insists on swinging before the rogue let him -- but he has the 50% miss chance since the rogue is still invisible -- and then ask him how he knows where to swing at.
Situation: Big Dumb Fighter knows that Sneaky Rogue is lurking nearby under the effects on an invisibility spell. BDF opts to ready an action for when SR "breaks" her invisibility by attacking. SR obliges.
Question: Does BDR's readied action (a standard attack) go off before the rogue's attack? Or after?
Note: I guess what I'm asking is, "When does an invisible attacker become visible after attacking? When the swing begins? Or when the attack hits or misses?"
I have always ruled that the BDF's readied action occurs before the attack.
Invisibility does not specify exactly when during the attack action the invisibility stops. ("The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature." "If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.")
The ready action is clear that "[t]he action occurs just before the action that triggers it."
So, since the attack action is what causes the invisibility to cease and the readied action occurs before the trigger, the BDF's attack occurs before the rogues sneak attack.
I do realize this may seem to present a paradox of how the BDF can 'see' the attack before it comes. I usually fall back that rules for ready are clear that the readied action is resolved first. This does not mean that the attack occurred before the rogue even began but rather the results of the attack take place prior to the resolution of the sneak attack.
This is an unfortunate consequence of a turn-based combat system that features the ability to interrupt an opponent. You end up with paradoxes where things happen before the trigger or may even prevent the trigger from occurring. This will always be unless you wish to introduce simultaneous actions to the game.
The cinematic version of readying can be seen in the classic gunfight scene. The cowboy and the outlaw square off in the center of town. The cowboy wins initiative, but he wouldn't shoot a man in cold blood. So, he readies an action to shoot when the outlaw shoots. The outlaw shoots, so the cowboy's readied action occurs. Natural 20. Confirmed. He shoots and kills the outlaw.
You can either look at this as a paradox. How did the cowboy shoot and kill the outlaw because then the outlaw never took the shot that triggered the cowboy to shoot.
Or you can look at as the cowboy's attack was resolved before the outlaw. The outlaw either fired and missed or never finished pulling the trigger or was hit which caused him to miss or whatever. Basically, the action didn't result in a game effect because the outlaw was already shot dead before he could resolve the attack.
Anyway, just wanted to present a differing perspective.
Situation: Big Dumb Fighter knows that Sneaky Rogue is lurking nearby under the effects on an invisibility spell. BDF opts to ready an action for when SR "breaks" her invisibility by attacking. SR obliges.
Question: Does BDR's readied action (a standard attack) go off before the rogue's attack? Or after?
Note: I guess what I'm asking is, "When does an invisible attacker become visible after attacking? When the swing begins? Or when the attack hits or misses?"
Readied actions normally occur before. I think this one is an exception. A better way to word it so it makes sense from an immersion PoV and so you don't even up with a 50% miss chance if the GM allows it is to say when you are attack, or right after you are attacked since readying an action allows you to be very precise with the trigger.
The rules don't say when. Normally the attack is completed so I would say when the attack is done for ease of clarity.
Thanks for the input, everyone. Still not sure on how I'll rule it. Probably split the difference and roll a die. 50/50 on whether the attack lands first, or the readied action does.
Why not just ask the player? If you are unsure which way you want to go ask him which one he prefers -- the chance to hit before the rogue (but possibly missing due to the 50% miss chance) or to swing immediately after the rogue hits him and breaks invisibility -- taking the damage but not having to contend with the miss chance.
It's a case where he really can't have both no damage and no miss chance so clarify which part he would prefer to deal with.
That way no matter what happens he can't blame you for his decision.
Thanks for the input, everyone. Still not sure on how I'll rule it. Probably split the difference and roll a die. 50/50 on whether the attack lands first, or the readied action does.
I'd use the logic train of invisibility making the target flat footed for the first attack, thus it would conceal the target until after the attack roll was made.
YMMV.
Why not just ask the player? If you are unsure which way you want to go ask him which one he prefers -- the chance to hit before the rogue (but possibly missing due to the 50% miss chance) or to swing immediately after the rogue hits him and breaks invisibility -- taking the damage but not having to contend with the miss chance.
It's a case where he really can't have both no damage and no miss chance so clarify which part he would prefer to deal with.
That way no matter what happens he can't blame you for his decision.
Not a bad suggestion at all. I was just trying to stick as closely to the rules as possible so that everyone can plan their tactics accordingly. Also saves time at the table. Not much help when the rules are silent, tho.
Good Stuff
Actually, on further reflection, I think I'll go with Tim's suggestion. The situation is close to "tripping someone who's trying to stand up," so I think I'll go with the strict interpretation and put aside the common sense argument, for now, and rule that the readied action comes first. Thanks for the input.
Good StuffActually, on further reflection, I think I'll go with Tim's suggestion. The situation is close to "tripping someone who's trying to stand up," so I think I'll go with the strict interpretation and put aside the common sense argument, for now, and rule that the readied action comes first. Thanks for the input.
Considering the AOO isn't triggered until the rogue *breaks* invisibility, and that doesn't happen until you've completed that attack (hence being flat-footed for that attack) it wouldn't even trigger until after the attack, the way he worded it anyway.
Interesting question though, how does the magic know you've made an attack if you miss the attack roll? Does swinging your blade break it?
Yeah, the whole thing is kinda messy.
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I would rule on "near simultaneous" actions.
The rogue attack and get to add the sneak attack as the fighter isn't ready to defend (he is flat footed) but he get to swing his sword as it is ready and deliver the damage even if he get knocked under 0 hp (same for the Rogue, the actions are so near to each other that they get to complete them with the last breath).
The next and successive rounds the fighter attacks before the rogue as for "readied action".
If the attacker has improved invisibility it is a bit trickier as he never "break invisibility". I am a bit lenient on readied actions and will allow the fighter to attack back after the first rogue attack, as he has given away his position, with all the usual invisible target problems. The fighter (if alive) will still have initiative on the rogue the following rounds.
Two more perfectly reasonable ways to deal with it. Sometimes I think the most productive (and politest) posts are in threads about things that aren't covered in the rules at all.