I ran Day of the Demon this pass weekend this is how it happened.
They nailed the Knowledge check and got the "password" for the manor. Upon arival they made short work of the 3 howlers. The Barbarian was hitting for about 60% of the howlers life, while the rogue was doing about 50% on a hit. With the spikes they did do some damage. Due to the "password" there was no Gargoyle encounter. They made it down to the basement after searching the entire complex in about 2 hours. With 2 hours left I figured I would let them have the optional encounter with the Babau. This is where the issue happened.
Only the Dwarf and Half-Orc could see in the dark. This still would have been a quick end to the Babau except; No one had a Cold Iron weapon except for the Dwarf who was carrying the Large Mace found earlier. With the Barbarian dropping fast, the others did the good thing and engaged in the dark. I was forced to ignore the sneak attack dice or he would have flat out killed the Rogue and Inquisitor. I also ignored miss chance for them casting healing spells on the barbarian. I let them metagame most of the spell casting they did even though they couldn't see.
Then I had to play stupid for them not to die. I even suggested retreat. I had him teleport out (to give them some respite) and "attempt" to summon another Babau. I didn't even roll, I just said he failed. Had 2 of them appeared it would have been really bad. At this point all the players are really upset and frustrated. I asked if they wanted to retreat. They said "no", So I let the Babau teleport back in. I made him teleport him outside the original darkness so they could fight there. I didnt want to kill anyone due to our PFS groups being small cause its still trying to take off. I hate to discourage people from continuing to play.
After the combat they pushed on. They handled the last encounter easily.
Still I read about TKPs and I know they happen. I'm not supposed to fudge combats but the players had gotten really upset and the game is supposed to be fun for everyone. How are you supposed to handle it? I'm fairly new to GMing in PFS.
Guess I just needed to feel some justification.
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Slacker, if it's any consolation you are not alone. This scenario made me feel very conflicted. The first time I ran it, I had a similar experience as yours. The players were overwhelmed and should have been hosed. I relented and softballed it after dropping 4 out of the 6 PCs. Afterward, I was disappointed in myself for going easy on the players. They were all adults and a game without the risk of death is not very entertaining. The next time I ran it, I resolved that I was going to run it strictly as it was written, whatever the consequences. That result was a TPK and the characters were unrecoverable (lack of gold/PP at that level). A few upset players posted reviews venting their feelings. Either way I handled it, it was a poor outcome.
What should you do next time? Well, I recommend reading the reviews before deciding what scenario to run your players through. There was a lot of warning about Day of the Demon. Sometimes players need to learn the hard way, but Day of the Demon is a vicious lesson.
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The most important question is did the players have a good time? If the answer is yes, then you did fine.* Sure dying is part of the game, but at the same time, you are responsible for providing a fun gaming experience. Fudging die rolls is (arguably) a legal tactic used by many GMs.
OTOH, the players stern refusal to retreat in the face of a situation that was clearly in favor of the enemy was not the best idea. Personally, I would have had a hard time not letting a tpk happen. If players insist on pushing forward despite the apparent risks, let the dice resolve the situation.
In general, it can be a challenge balancing the needs of RAW and let the dice decide vs. allowing the players to "win" and be heroic. All you can do is what you feel is right and hope that the players are adult enough to understand that in a game of randomness, sometimes things don't work out in your favor.
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First, why was the barbarian (4th level, able to see, and d12 HD) "dropping fast"?
That aside, every single character there could have afforded a potion of darkvision; it's 300gp (even a 3rd-level PC is carrying thousands of gp worth of gear) and requires 5 Fame (even a barely-3rd-level PC has played at least 6 scenarios; the odds of having less than 5 Fame is astronomically low).
I'd bet dollars to donuts that the reason you found yourself in such an uncomfortable situation is because all their previous GMs did exactly what you did: bailed them out as soon as something came up that required preparation to overcome, letting them keep going without learning. And maybe this sounds harsh, but now you've set them up to create the same un-fun situation with their next GM. You've done your part to perpetuate the cycle. Then sooner or later, a GM is gonna run a fair game for them, they'll suffer for the unpreparedness that you helped teach them was okay, and the sour feelings will be that much stronger.
I'm sorry, but you shouldn't have broken the rules to "help" them. I know it looked like you were promoting "fun" in the short term, but you've actually done the opposite in the long term. Some will say "as long as they had fun, everything's fine", but anyone who takes that approach purely in the scope of that one table is simply shortsighted and contributes to experiences like yours.
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That's a deadly encounter. I've nearly ended two parties on it.
Darkness is devastating for groups that don't have a means of dealing with it. Oil of daylights are pricey, but when you need them, you really need them. The high tier is even worse, since there are two, and they can try to dispel the daylight while the other remakes the darkness. Offer alternative tactics to PCs used to standing and fighting. Maybe, instead of phrasing it as running away, they try and goad it out of the darkness.
If I see a party completely unable to deal with a threat, depending on experience of player I may offer up some nonstandard tactics (intimidate/bluff to play to its pride and have it fight in the light, or something). High tier would likely not get those concessions, as a 6-7 needs to have a way of dealing with darkness.
Speaking of which, did the sorcerer have any means of dispelling? It's a potent and often overlooked option.
So too, with DR. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of backup weapons and contingencies for just this sort of thing. Make sure the newer players know what's expected of them as pathfinders: Pathfinders are prepared.
Make sure your players are educated and help them see holes in strategy and preparation in-between games. Darkness, DR, Ranged, Flight, Weather Effects, Swarms, and more I've seen trounce parties otherwise wrecking a scenario because they were unprepared. Work with your players, and make what could be a very negative event into a learning experience of the sorts of threats they will see as they gain levels.
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Yeah - when I played it - our GM told us that we were lucky we'd taken so long. (just missed knowledge check so didn't skip that encounter - spent some time exploring etc) Because of that - the GM skipped the scary encounter in question.
The only real trouble we had was the encounter you mentioned skipping - not close to death - just time consuming because only 1 person in the party had a magic weapon.
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I ran Day of the Demon this pass weekend this is how it happened.
** spoiler omitted **...
Guess I just needed to feel some justification.
What, that you cared about the feelings of the people at the gaming table and wanted to provide an enjoyable experience for all?
The rules lawyers will hound you mercilessly for fudging some rolls at a session. The socialites will appreciate the chance to shine at a session. From what I've seen, PFS has many types of GMs and players -- conservatives, moderates and liberals if you will.
You are not going to find justification for your actions here friend. In the end, you did what you thought was right at the time as a GM. If everyone is enjoying themselves, smiles are around the gaming table and the products are moving off the shelves at the local game shop, mission accomplished.
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** spoiler omitted **
I don't necessarily disagree with your thoughts, but you seem to be making some assumptions about the player's experiences that may not be accurate. It could be (unlikely, but possible) that they've never had to deal with darkness before. Or at least not to the extent that this scenario takes advantage of it. As such, they would not be aware of how much an advantage it can be and how easily it is countered.
It is not uncommon for GMs to "softball" low level scenarios for a variety of reasons. That said, this scenario is not low-level and at least a couple of the PC are clearly not low-level. They should have known better.
In the end, no GM wants to be told the session they ran sucked and they are a jerk (or other badness). It can be a challenge, especially for new(er) GMs.
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When I run this I will be clear from the start that this scenario has a high mortality rate, and make sure the players know what they're getting in to. I suggest the same for any other GMs that are prepping this.
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Honestly, if you`ve advised the players to retreat, given them a golden opportunity to do so, and they insist on pressing on regardless of the (known) danger, then putting kid gloves on only worsens the situation. While no one likes to lose a character, softballing encounters only leads to the continued expectation of such behaviour, and de-emphasizes the importance of preparedness, teamwork, and clever tactics.
Players need to realize that they will occasionally run into situations they are ill equipped to handle, and sometimes retreating and regrouping is the best option. By 4th, and certainly by 6th level, this is something players should be aware of and expecting.
While your goal of avoiding player frustration is commendable, there are times (such as this one), where the players contribute significantly to escalating a difficult situation by refusing to consider other options.
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I don't necessarily disagree with your thoughts, but you seem to be making some assumptions about the player's experiences that may not be accurate. It could be (unlikely, but possible) that they've never had to deal with darkness before.
Exceptions are exceptions. :) Yes, it's possible that their unpreparedness was legitimate, in which case we're back to "Why wouldn't they run?" and other factors. But when I said "I'd bet dollars to donuts", I was intending to communicate "it's very very very likely, though not a 100% sure thing" (approximately what you said). Perhaps I failed in that communication.
In the end, no GM wants to be told the session they ran sucked and they are a jerk (or other badness).
Not sure what you mean with this line. Are you saying that he was at risk of his players telling him he sucked/was a jerk?
Something else?Want to make sure I respond to the right thing. :)
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Jiggy, I'm pretty sure (but, of course, don't know) that he's talking about this:
I'm sorry, but you shouldn't have broken the rules to "help" them. I know it looked like you were promoting "fun" in the short term, but you've actually done the opposite in the long term. Some will say "as long as they had fun, everything's fine", but anyone who takes that approach purely in the scope of that one table is simply shortsighted and contributes to experiences like yours.
That's telling the GM that he sucked (or other badness).
Of course, just as PFS players should come in to PFS scenarios aware that they might die, and aware that especially as levels increase, there are situations they should be aware of, anybody on the Internet should come to a message board aware that they're likely to be told that they've screwed up, they're a bad person, and they're ruining everything for everybody else. That is, after all, a pretty common thing to run into on the Internet whenever you express an opinion or anecdote that isn't accepted as an axiom by the posters on that forum.
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I have never ran this scenario specifically, but I GM society fairly regularly and have had a few TPKs under my belt, and been involved in a few as well.
It's true, they suck. For everyone involved. But that's the point isn't it? I know I've walked away from a table going "There was no way our party was going to succeed at that encounter" just as often as "Wow, the dice where against us today."
The other question I have would be "what was the ambient light condition?" If it wasn't already Dim lighting, then the darkness spell at worse would have only created a 20% miss chance for the non-darkvision players. Again, I haven't played or GM'd this scenario, but normally light conditions are at least "normal"
EDIT: Sorry for my lack of spoiler sensitivity
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@Jiggy:
Jiggy, your right that I might be perpetuating the issue. But our PFS community is still small and we struggle to get two tables every two weeks (we play at the local gaming store every other weekend). There are only 3 of us in the area(VL, the sorcerer 6, and myself) with characters over level 5. At this table was 3 different peoples ##-1 character. Thats one of the big reasons I didnt want to wipe the table.
@Mortag1981
Slacker, if it's any consolation you are not alone. This scenario made me feel very conflicted. The first time I ran it, I had a similar experience as yours. The players were overwhelmed and should have been hosed. I relented and softballed it after dropping 4 out of the 6 PCs. Afterward, I was disappointed in myself for going easy on the players. They were all adults and a game without the risk of death is not very entertaining. The next time I ran it, I resolved that I was going to run it strictly as it was written, whatever the consequences.
This is the way I feel. Thanks for you input Doug
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I have an epic fear of Babaus after that fight, specifically because we WERE prepared, and our preparations were useless. Babaus are smart, experienced assassins who work ridiculously well in darkness. Since they have the ability to dispel magic at will, why in the world would they let anyone keep daylight up? Or not wait until right after you drank that potion to ruin your darkvision? Again and again and again until you run out of resources, get stuck in their darkness, and fall to their sneak attacks.
Basically, every time I survive against babaus without natural darkvision or astronomical luck, I expect that the GM softballed the encounter.
I'm sorry you had that experience, but I'm not sure what else you could have done. That's a brutal fight and I don't think your average PFS table is going to find much success in it.
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When babaus started showing up in multiples and in mooks all season 5, I kept getting flashbacks to Day of the Demon. Even now that my staff magus is close to retirement and has dropped babaus in a single round, I get nervous when one shows up. I know the damage those slimy demons can do.
As for how you handled it, Slacker, I understand your need to justify. I don't like killing PCs, but I also know as a player I don't like when GMs pull punches. I'll only pull punches for a round or two if a player has shown they just don't enjoy the numbers side of the game and wouldn't know how tripped up a character can be if they are unprepared for
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Slacker, ultimately only you can decide if you made the right call. You were there, we weren't. Did you provide a good experience for your players? Did you do so while following the rules found in the Guide? I think the answer for both (assuming from your posts) is yes and yes. So I think that you did a great job.
Regarding difficult combats: This game gets a lot more "swingy" in later fights, meaning that things are often decided by a single die roll and can swing one way or the other. For example, higher levels lead to more save or suck spells, more vicious critical hits, and savager enemies. The game gets harder at times just because the dice aren't in your favor. Whenever I'm running a game and I crit with a x3 or x4 weapon I wince, because that often means the party will be spending resources to bring them up. *But I never turn that crit into a regular hit in the higher levels, no matter how badly I want to. I don't because I know the PCs are still at an advantage as a party, and that now they'll come out on top, despite being down a teammate. And those are the kinds of victories that players talk about with pride.
There are other ways to adjust the difficulty as a GM, simply by making poor tactical decisions, as you did in your example. Those are the avenues I explore when the difficulty needs to be rolled back, or the players need a little breather. I don't have a problem doing this, as long as my players are still going to have a good time.
Running Bonekeep for Kyle Baird's Army of Optimizers? No softballing whatsoever. They can experience all the horrors within at full force.
Running the last slot at a convention for a few new players that previously had a bad GM? They get Walter's awesome extravaganza, where things are challenging but not impossible, and my NPCs don't sunder spell component pouches, bullrush PCs through lightning beams, or hit people while they're down.
Here's a recent example. I was running [redacted] and got 3 hits, 2 crits, and a rend off on the level 8 bloodrager who was playing up in a 7-11. They were definitely dead from these attacks, but I knew the party had plenty of PCs that could BOL the slain PC. Unfortunately, the body was 70 feet ahead of the party. Despite good preparation on their part, it was just bad luck. Bad luck that the bloodrager won initiative, bad luck that the monster went next, and bad luck that 2 of my 5 attack dice were natural 20s that both confirmed. So what did I do? After the monster killed the bloodrager outright, I had it spend the remaining attacks it had available to pick her broken body off the ground and fling it intimidatingly at the rest of the party. This was a) a legitimate action for the monster to take and b) allowed the body to be in range of a BOL later in the round. I still had the party expend resources, but didn't unnecessarily punish a table that was already struggling with the difficult combats in the scenario.
And while you may not have made the same decision, mine was still a fair one to make. As long as you don't break rules and provide a fun experience for everyone, no one has the right to give you any grief.
bad luck that the monster went next, and bad luck that 2 of my 5 attack dice were natural 20s that both confirmed. So what did I do? After the monster killed the bloodrager outright, I had it spend the remaining attacks it had available to pick her broken body off the ground and fling it intimidatingly at the rest of the party. This was a) a legitimate action for the monster to take and b) allowed the body to be in range of a BOL later in the round. I still had the party expend resources, but didn't unnecessarily punish a table that was already struggling with the difficult combats in the scenario.
That is absolutely brilliant! I bow down to your cleverness.
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** spoiler omitted **
Jiggy's information is 100% correct. I have seen this personally several times.
I will NOT softball an encounter, but I will tell PCs the slight chances I see for them and if they insist they want to fight to the death. That is their choice.
I have had people upset with me, because previous GMs softball a couple of times.
I had one person swear at me because I would not them end a fight with a single diplomacy roll when the stat block says fights to the death. After the game we made up but they explained to me the other DMs they have allow it.
I love walter and all he says. But I have a friendly disagreement. There is little luck involved. Unless a DM cheats, the choices are the players. The barbarian chose to play up. Chose to charge ALONE. Chose to build his character in a way that could not take those hits. He chose to allow luck to end his life. You can mitigate luck a great deal. Jiggy often mentions a ton of ways for player to do so.
As for making poor tactics to make fights easier. I disagree with that too. I will play the enemies as tactically as I think they are written. But for not as strong players. I will give tons of advice and teach them the tactics to counter what the bad guys are doing. I would rather weaker players walk out stronger from my tables. I would have advice that barbarian about holding his actions to prevent what happened. I would said something like "This is a huge monester and you are rushing up with one attack, giving it a full attack on you, if it goes next you will be the only choice. Also keep in mind you are playing up do you want to be the first one up to this thing?"
If you want encounters that are easy for player pick easy encoutners.
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Good points Finlanderboy. Like I said, my approach to that situation isn't the only one that would have worked. I think that if someone did either—what I did or what he suggested—no one has any right to get upset. In the end that there are countless factors that lead into any encounter, and dozens of things that have to happen that lead to a TPK or near TPK. While a majority of these are things that the players and the GMs have control over, sometimes it's just bad luck.
And while I didn't expect my monster to pump out about 150 damage in a single round, that Bloodrager could have had Raging Brutality and Toughness, or could have cast blur before running in. She made the decision not to, as Finlanderboy states, and the consequences were the result.
The decision at the end of the day is up to you as a GM on how you would like to handle it.
My players were behind enemy lines in the Worldwound, with no way to get their comrade brought back to life except for a breath of life. I made the decision not to have her sit out the rest of the game by tossing the corpse closer to the other PCs. Another GM might not have, and as long as the player still had a good time at the end of the slot we'd both be right.
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@Jiggy:
** spoiler omitted **
Doing what's helpful long term is often difficult in the short term. For instance, being awesome enough to come out and solicit public feedback in hopes of becoming a better GM is difficult in the short term (largely because of people like me who forget to cushion the criticism - sorry!) but will grant great rewards in the long term - you'll gradually become a more and more fantastic GM! Just the fact that you're here shows you're already ahead of the too-numerous GMs who seem to think that if nobody walks then they must already be getting it right.
You're doin' good, Slacker. :)
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As a player I walk away grumbling when a DM softballs. It makes me want to runt he scenario so I can give people the game that I would have wanted. I am not mad at that DM, I just want an honest hard game.(I am that guy begging the table to do hard mode) So by no means Slacker was what you were doing was not wrong, but also not right either. I would advice next time to make it an obvious choice for the PCs that they have little chance of winning the way they are prepared. Because they run out the castle does not mean they end the scenario. I would allow the PC a chance to regroup and stratgeize a better answer, and if they would appreicate it I would strongly advice them on what they could and how I would rule. I think it would have been a more enjoyable scenario to have the pcs run tail between their legs out of the area and then get together and work out a plan to get this thing back.
I have developed the idea that it is partly my fault a PC dies and does not understand why they died.
Keep in mind I am thinking of these ideas after the fact as well. It is much harder on the spot.
Walter the idea to throw the guy back was brillant and I would be proud had I thought of it. I forgot to mention that my last post.
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It has always been drilled in to my mind that when GMing you should run it as it is written. As some have mentioned here that when running a scenario, even a difficult one, that there are certain things that need to be done via the tactics and what the creature is and should do. If it is not ran that way what happens is that the players come to certain expectations and eventually they WILL have a bad experience when a GM tells them they can't do it that way because the creature/tactics or special circumstances do not allow for it to happen. It is not fair for that player.
If we all ran each scenario with kid gloves then that is one thing but because we as GM's are human we have to take some of the human factor out of the equation. By following the rules of the game and the ones in the scenario itself. It is a hard line but it is consistent and if we ALL did it then the players are less likely to complain about something that happened later on in the game and they think it unfair. But it is part of the rules and it DID happen. There is no breech of confidence as the rules were followed. It is when the rules are not followed that things start to become unfair. Players and GM's need consistency. If a player does something less then smart, a a GM says that there could be consequences and even goes so far as to say what those consequences are... and the players STILL decides to do the action, then the player lives by the die roll and suffers the consequences should they occur.
With newer players they need to know this is a game where there is life and death decisions to be made in the game. Make bad choices or come totally unprepared... then you might die. There are various clues that can be had for any given scenario that you as a player might play. Some of the more popular ones I have seen used, The name of the scenario "Day of the Demon" is a big clue, The blurb that comes WITH the scenario to introduce the scenario to the players often contains some clue as to what might expect in the encounter. Another clue that one might get is through questions of the GM during the actual introduction blurb. Often there is a Q&A section that can happen to allow the players a chance to find out further clues. There is also a chance for knowledge rolls as well to find out another further chance for information or clues. With all the above it is not the GM's job to softball any of the scenario as then it is unfair for the GM's after you that follows the scenario you just ran. They would have to deal with the fallout from a softball scenario when they don't do it that way. To me that is the biggest travesty. We as GM's need to play it like it is written and let the dice fall where it might.
Feel sorry for the group if something happens.. do not rub it in and make it worse for the group should their character die. If it dies heroically make them feel heroic. If it dies in such a way where it comes down to a dice roll such as a bad roll on a climb check and they fall.. be remorseful for the player. But it is not up to us as GM's to softball it because the player is in the game to try and play the game by the rules and to live and die by their decisions. The GM should honor them by doing so as well. :)
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Doing what's helpful long term is often difficult in the short term. For instance, being awesome enough to come out and solicit public feedback in hopes of becoming a better GM is difficult in the short term (largely because of people like me who forget to cushion the criticism - sorry!) but will grant great rewards in the long term...
Jiggy, You know I value your opinion. No reason to cushion anything.
I will NOT softball an encounter, but I will tell PCs the slight chances I see for them and if they insist they want to fight to the death. That is their choice...
I will give tons of advice and teach them the tactics to counter what the bad guys are doing. I would rather weaker players walk out stronger from my tables. I would have advice that barbarian about holding his actions to prevent what happened. I would said something like "This is a huge monester and you are rushing up with one attack, giving it a full attack on you, if it goes next you will be the only choice. Also keep in mind you are playing up do you want to be the first one up to this thing?"
Finlanderboy, Thank you for this. I think this is where I went wrong. When the Demon left, I should have warned them into retreating. Given some tactical advice. Then if they stayed I would have been ok with it.
I came to the boards cause I was unhappy with the way I pulled the punches and I didnt feel like I had a bunch of options. This thread has helped me alot.
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I certainly echo what Jiggy is saying about you coming here for feedback being a good idea. It definitely shows character, and that's always a good thing as a GM. That being said, my suggestion is that you consider asking your players for feedback after the adventure. As one of three to six people actually at the table, they would be the best people to get feedback from. try to find out what they were thinking, and I would point out that things certainly could have gone differently, and make suggestions for making more well-rounded characters (at least equipment wise), as many players come to PFS from homegames where having your own healing items and not being reliant on just one person to heal and do support can be a different experience.
I would certainly make a list of "recommended" things that all characters should consider carrying (a ranged and melee weapon, the ability to heal yourself over multiple encounters, being able to deal with DR, Darkness, Swarms, and climb/swim checks). That way, you'll at least have given them the idea that you are expected to be more self-sufficient than in most campaigns.
Now that I've said that, I'm gonna make a list up since we're running a 1-5 this weekend and pass them around. It might help our low level players in this regard as well.
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bad luck that the monster went next, and bad luck that 2 of my 5 attack dice were natural 20s that both confirmed. So what did I do? After the monster killed the bloodrager outright, I had it spend the remaining attacks it had available to pick her broken body off the ground and fling it intimidatingly at the rest of the party. This was a) a legitimate action for the monster to take and b) allowed the body to be in range of a BOL later in the round. I still had the party expend resources, but didn't unnecessarily punish a table that was already struggling with the difficult combats in the scenario.That is absolutely brilliant! I bow down to your cleverness.
Yes, that is awesome. This is the reason I check these boards a few times per day. It's always nice to find little tidbits like this to help me learn to be a better GM. I've been playing/GMing since 1980 and I still have a lot to learn!
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** spoiler omitted **
Wow it warms the cockles of my evil GM heart that an encounter I ran for you caused you to fear that creature for sessions to come!
It makes me happy because for the most part I am a softy.
This adventure can be pretty deadly for the unprepared or even for the moderately well prepared, but darn it all, I love running it.
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i often say a good GM can TPK with a single goblin, but a great GM wont. you did well.. but a TPK requires all to die. kill one or two and the others learn a valuable lesson, kill no one and they feel invincible in such situations and wont learn to improve their play. let the survivors spread the tale of what happens when tings go wrong.
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I was running the sorceror (sorc 5/oracle 1) and will say that was a terrible encounter all around. I'm as conflicted about it as the DM. I knew pretty much by round 2 it was going to be a TPK. And strictly by the rules it should have been. That said, I'll shade in some of the details as to how things went so wrong.
First, I knew something was up as soon as we encountered the area in question. I stopped the party and suggested we send the rogue ahead to spy out the area. I casted vanish on the rogue and he went ahead. He found the monster, but the monster made a successful perception check to locate him when he tried to sneak back to us. (I know that doesn't sound right, wait...).
The rogue gets attacked and basically one shotted. The monster then immediately drops darkness. The dwarf cleric decides the best way to get to our dying party member is to use create pit to slip beneath the gate rather than attempting tbe other route through the darkness.
I've only been playing PF for about a year and have managed to deal with darkness with invisibity and area spells. I also did a mental check before we left Absalom as to our DV character count. I thought that with both the Barb and cleric having DV we were good. Even if I can't see, I can support them.
So before the barb goes swinging beneath the gate and through tbe pit, I cast vanish on him, thinking he now has a significant advantage over whatever we are fighting. I was wrong. Beford the Barb can charge, the DM reads that the monster can see invis. Mistakes happen, and I've no problem with that, but it did affect how we positioned ourselves initially.
I somehow made it through the pit to assist the rest of the party in the fight on the other side before the pit disappeared. But like the DM indicated, the Barb, for RP reasons, stuck with his magic great sword instead of that certain cold iron weapon we liberated earlier that our cleric fortunately decided to tote.
The barb went into a rage, but had some supersition ability that handicapped our clerics ability (and mine) to heal him. The dice turned on us pretty hard, too, and got hot for the DM, not just the D20s, but the damage dice. The monster was hitting the barb like a truck.
I tried casting glitterdust (twice, to blind), grease, burning hands, and even a suicidal create pit when the barb dropped. The monster made every save and I failed tbe SR check. I have DC17 for lvl 2 spells, so that was like 4 or 5 coin tosses that didn't fall my way. The cleric exhausted his healing channels and spells keeping the barb up. The rogue was brought to pksitive hp, but literally could not stand without provoking certain death. I think our other party member was trying to help him, but kept got cut to ribbons by AOOs and reach weapon.
By the time I switched to casting blind clw spells on a newly revived and exhausted barb, the DM had the monster teleport away. None of us considered retreat an option at that point, because the creature TELEPORTED. My experience with Bearded Devils was this monster could follow us wherever.
I dug out a scroll of obscuring mist while the barb got healed. I was advised not to use the scroll when the monster returned a round later. And granted, had the monster been doing sneak attack damage it would have made more sense. Again, we didn't think we could just run away and SWIM back the way we came unmolested.
The monster ported back to a place that kind of cut off our retreat had we made one. The barb armed himself with the CI weapon and ended the battle. Had the monster brought back a friend or the BBEG made a move (why wouldn't they?), we would have been dead.
The last encounter was trivial compared to this one, despite how beat up we were.
All of this said, I think some issues exist with the darkness mechanic in the game and with the CR of that particular monster. The player's w/o DV felt like they were being slaughtered because they didn't have the foresight to prep for a magical super assassin they didn't even know existed until that adventure. And most, if not all the counters to DV we've used so far could have been dispelled by the monster that can both dispell and drop darkness at will.
That's also the second time in as many sessions a charactet's seemingly harmless RP decisions significantly hurt the party.
I didn't even realize DV was a lvl 2 spell, myself, ratherless that I could buy a potion of it. I intend to pick up something to deal with darkness more effectively at my next level.
So, the DM made the best of a bad situation and I paid some small penance for it after getting poisoned. I lost the PP I gained to restore an ability stat.
That scenario has issues beyond just this encounter. Paizo should really revisit it (and that monster). Perhaps even the light/darkness mechanic in general. It really makes playing a mid to low level character without DV feel like a liability. Too often, the racial choice feels like a life and death decision.
As far as the adventure, even a small written clue about the monster's existence, specifically, would either give someone in-game or meta-game knowledge so they can make some prep. At least then it wouldn't feel so cheap to new people when they walk into inevitable death.
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I love encounters that are deadly. These are the games I am laughing and at the edge of my seat.
Then again I am not as emotional vested in my characters. I do not get upset in the slightest for losing prestige, items, wealth, or my characters life.
Now keep in mind you have near endless things you can do in any encounter. I feel PCs have a false self confidence that if they run at everything in the same exact way they did everything else they will get through it. Now you are level 6. I do not pity you for not being ready for darkness. That is a threat you should be capable of dealing with it one way or another at that level. Oil of daylight can trump most darkness and match deeper darkness.(keep in mind only burning hands requires SR of the spells you casted, but that would be hard to do any fire damage to evil out planar creature)
That scroll would have helped a great deal the fog would give concealment and prevent sneak attack damage. It would also negate most of the reach advantage since they would have total concealment that far away.
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As far as the adventure, even a small written clue about the monster's existence, specifically, would either give someone in-game or meta-game knowledge so they can make some prep. At least then it wouldn't feel so cheap to new people when they walk into inevitable death.
There's actually multiple clues in the adventure if someone has Knowledge (planes). That being said...
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As far as the adventure, even a small written clue about the monster's existence, specifically, would either give someone in-game or meta-game knowledge so they can make some prep. At least then it wouldn't feel so cheap to new people when they walk into inevitable death.There's actually multiple clues in the adventure if someone has Knowledge (planes). That being said...
** spoiler omitted **
The title of the scenario is one honking big clue:-)
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I agree it's a tough scenario. When I played it our local VC was in the chair, and he warned us to bring our "A" game, because he certainly was!
I do have one complaint, though - I hate potential TPKs in the optional encounter. PFS is supposed to provide a uniform experience no matter where you play. I see the purpose of an optional encounter as being to adjust for the variations in pace of play from party size, party make-up, and play style; it should be an average encounter, not the hardest one in the scenario!
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I made a knowledge (planes) check (once I could see it) high enough to ID it and get one question. The DM told me/the table what it was and we were all like, wth is that?
I think I asked what its weaknesses were in a panic and the DM told me it didn't have any.
By clue, I meant something like a short creepy poem or maybe some ornamentation on the door frame hinting at what lies within and what it does. Heck, the BBEG could pass along hint for its own agenda.
You have to understand, new players don't always have the metagame knowledge veteran players have. You tell me the scenario is called House of the Red Dragon and I'll have an idea what I might need. I have a general understanding of the threats that might pose. It really does no good when my character has more knowledge about a monster than I do. He knew what it was and I didn't.
Someone mentioned how the seasonal storyline was a hint, but we tend to play these scenarios in a kind of random fashion depending on which plauers and which characters are able to show up and play. I've run maybe a couple dozen scenarios and only have the vaguest idea of the overarching plot.
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I always feel softballing does the players a disservice, like many previous posters I support running as written. You learn from your failures and you adapt to be better. TPK's are rarely an issue if they're handled correctly. I've had a couple in my relatively short time GMing PFS and I always talk to the players about it afterwards and suggest what I think they could have done better and what I feel they did right.
Ultimately, as has been previously been mentioned it comes down to knowing the scenarios beforehand (reading it through, gauging the abilities and researching reviews/feedback.) That put's you in the best position to learn how to deal with the encounter.
Back to softballing, it's all very well for you to softball a scenario and allow a group to survive that might not. But what happened when those players rock up to a table that the GM does not softball at. The short answer is, they are not prepared. I'm not advocating being a killer GM or ruining anybodies fun, but without the risk of failure, successes lose meaning.
I recently ran Crypt of the Everflame, resulting in a party wipe. I talked about it with the party afterwards and a few weeks later they asked to run it again with a new group of characters. They aced it. Not because they metagamed, but because they learnt from their mistakes approached the dungeon with extra caution and worked better as a team.
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While I've been guilty of softballing a bit in 1-2s and 1-5s, I have my own way of running fights, as does every gm out there. The most important thing we can do for our community, however, is to support each other as GMs. Ultimately, the guy in the seat makes a call. Even when it's not the best call, we have to remember that without him/her volunteering, there would have been no call to make.
Personally, I would have just run as written and let the chips fall where they may. However, you made a by-the-seat-of-your-pants call, and who are we to say you were wrong?
Congrats on passing one of the most difficult hurdles as a gm: what to do when the party is completely unprepared for the fight. You'll get smoother with whatever your chosen gm style is with practice.
TLDR: don't sweat it. We've all been there.
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When I get a player at a table I'm running that I don't recognize, I'll go through a couple questions/detailed looks at their character, asserting:
1) Is this their first time playing Pathfinder?
2) Is this their first character (i.e. their ###-1)?
3) Are they level 1 or 2 still?
If the answer to any of the above is yes, I will often employ some soft-balling tactics so they don't get killed in literally their 1st, 2nd or 3rd game ever.
Typically, I will accomplish this by having monsters decide that the others folks at their table (playing their ###-12's) look like tastier targets despite not being a halfling.
In some cases, I recall conveniently "forgetting" an elemental was immune to critical hits to prevent a TPK in a 1-2 subtier scenario in a certain Temple of Aroden and let the party end a combat sooner rather than later.
If the softballing is such that it's noticed by players, I give the player a knowing look and let them know that I may be doing a little holding back, which will promptly end when they reach 3rd level or arrive at the game store to play their ###-2 character.
If a player has 18 fame, I'd never softball.
(well, unless the encounter is brutally ridiculous, then maybe just a little...)
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The only time I have EVER fudged rolls in a PFS game have been when there was a child at the table who I did not believe would have the emotional maturity to handle a character death. I lowered the damage the monster did and he only almost died.
I then also informed him how incredibly lucky he was and that by all rights the monster should have killed him and that his character only lived due to some incredibly good luck on the damage roll. The rest of the session he decided not to walk into a room first unsupported by the party members. Mission accomplished.
Now I do frequently adjust what a monster is doing for its tactics as soon as the PC's invalidate what is written. But seldom is this in favor of the party. Usually I pull out stunts that players seldom see, such as using reach weapons to disarm spell components.
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Slacker, you handled the situation as best as you thought it should be. As long as you are playing by the rules and brought the story to life, no one can ask for anything more.
Some very good advice has already been stated. When they refuse to retreat, let the dice roll. (Retreating is always a viable option) Are they having a good time? Are they experienced gamers?
Softballing isn't necessarily a bad thing. I typically stop softballing when they hit subtier 5-6. Typically, by this level character have a means to raise dead. Also, don't be afraid to kill a PC. Almost always there is something that was learnt from the death or near death experience. In this instance, your players learnt they need to have a way to bypass different types of DR and characters who don't have darkvision need a way to see in darkness.
I know when my personal characters died there something I learnt.
1. Know your options when shallowed whole
2. make sure everyone has a way to fly [subtier 8-9] or viable ranged attacks
3. dex based characters should always carry oils of grease).
I know they only time I was upset with a death or almost death wasn't because of the GM, it was because my dice were rolling like crap (I couldn't break out of a grapple from Black tentacles.).