Is the hunker down bonus working as intended?


Pathfinder Online

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

The hunker down bonus is a nice idea from GW to reward small settlements to stay where they are. But is it actually working?

Looking at Caldeathes great spreadsheet there seems only a single guild left with a decent hunker down bonus - Libarians of Doom - and reading complains about week 6 they are only in Q because of a miscalculation and were supposed to be displaced.

Kabal did start in F, followed by D, then R and now AC. I'm not sure where they want to go eventually. But each time they went to a place were another group stayed for multiple weeks - destroying their bonus - and through the knock-on effect a lot more collateral damage to the hunker down bonus of others as well.

If larger groups like Kabal move around each week, then the whole idea of a hunker down bonus becomes a farce or might only be good for 1-2 weeks. Destruction (in this case the hunker down bonus) always seems easier as construction (building up the bonus by staying in your spot).

5 weeks of staying can be destroyed at any time by someone twice your size. and it doesn't even matter to you if you move in and back as long as it is before week 10 and your own bonus is neglible.

Goblin Squad Member

This is actually something Golgotha talked about internally. There were a few people close by that we didn't much want close by, and we knew they were there because of their Hunker Down. We considered moving ourselves for a week, pushing them off, and then bringing in a more friendly group.

We ended up deciding that it wasn't something we thought right to do. I am curious what the rest of the community thinks.

Goblin Squad Member

Unfortunately, Thod, you may've seen Hunker Down being used exactly as Goblinworks allowed in their design. A group can trade its own advantage for the cumulative benefit of zeroing out multiple other groups'.

It's devilishly difficult, given the hidden complexities of hidden Settlement-choice, to anticipate the tumble-down effects. As we've been discussing in another thread, though, those Settlement-choices can be seen by potential malefactors, by sending a voter into a target-Guild long enough to gather the semi-public information.

With that info, however, it's a relatively simple spreadsheet-exercise to plot the highest-value target for the week, maximising to the extent possible the number of Hunker Down bonuses eliminated or minimised. Only three groups remain with an untouched Hunker Down bonus; that number will decrease.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Gol Morbis wrote:

This is actually something Golgotha talked about internally. There were a few people close by that we didn't much want close by, and we knew they were there because of their Hunker Down. We considered moving ourselves for a week, pushing them off, and then bringing in a more friendly group.

We ended up deciding that it wasn't something we thought right to do. I am curious what the rest of the community thinks.

Thanks to be open about such talks - and not doing it !!

I would regard it as grefing by different means. And that is why I wanted to ring this up for general discussion as I feel the whole idea isn't working.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Morbis wrote:

This is actually something Golgotha talked about internally. There were a few people close by that we didn't much want close by, and we knew they were there because of their Hunker Down. We considered moving ourselves for a week, pushing them off, and then bringing in a more friendly group.

We ended up deciding that it wasn't something we thought right to do. I am curious what the rest of the community thinks.

It is a method of neighborhood control that is pretty useful. I would certainly consider using it to push someone out or to free up that space to allow go I wanted there to return.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

Unfortunately, Thod, you may've seen Hunker Down being used exactly as Goblinworks allowed in their design. A group can trade its own advantage for the cumulative benefit of zeroing out multiple other groups'.

.

You don't lose anything if you are in the top 10. Your bonus is zero.

I would even go that far that the top 12 hardly lose anything. What is the loss of 5% build up over 3 weeks when you destroy 100% build up over 5 weeks.

Goblin Squad Member

I, for one, would welcome our Golgothan overlordsbumping assistants. Sadly, I don't think my team wants any of the hexes you are concerned with.

Ryan's (paraphrasing) "you shouldn't vote for a team you don't plan to live with" is all well and good, but realistically, I don't see how a game about meaningful interaction can take a stand against using your resources to arrange the playing field as you like.

History is full of nations who placed trusted individuals in groups where they could maneuver others to their advantage. I don't see how that can be wrong, as annoying as it might be if it happened to me.

Goblin Squad Member

In my opinion, it can work pretty well if used as they want things to go. The percentages grow each week. If your actual numbers grow (in relation to everyone else) it is a gravy train of synergy for those that know just where they want to be.

It breaks down when you cross that "top ten" threshold.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Morbis wrote:

This is actually something Golgotha talked about internally. There were a few people close by that we didn't much want close by, and we knew they were there because of their Hunker Down. We considered moving ourselves for a week, pushing them off, and then bringing in a more friendly group.

We ended up deciding that it wasn't something we thought right to do. I am curious what the rest of the community thinks.

That's not something we've considered doing (and I sincerely doubt we'll give it a second thought) but honestly, if you or someone else did it, I wouldn't complain or think less of them for doing so. This is a settlement warfare game at a stage where settlement warfare doesn't exist, and the results of the landrush will be who your neighbors are for a very substantial period of time where you won't be able to do anything about it.

If you or someone else wants to influence the process and get neighbors nearby who would be better for you, it'd be hard for me to fault them for doing so.

And in all honesty, Golgotha is out on a limb a bit being the notable evil presence in the game, and I'd fault you even less for wanting to influence who your neighbors are.

Goblin Squad Member

I have no problem one group using 'infiltrators' to get the info of other group's land rush choices. However, I would've liked it if GW made it where they had to work for that information. As it stands now, it is just too easy.

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:
T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

Unfortunately, Thod, you may've seen Hunker Down being used exactly as Goblinworks allowed in their design. A group can trade its own advantage for the cumulative benefit of zeroing out multiple other groups'.

.

You don't lose anything if you are in the top 10. Your bonus is zero.

I would even go that far that the top 12 hardly lose anything. What is the loss of 5% build up over 3 weeks when you destroy 100% build up over 5 weeks.

The weak shall always suffer at the hands of the strong. Do you think OE will be any different?

The answer is, yes it will be different, it will be a lot more brutal.

My answer to those that might ask, what if the UNC turns out to not be strong?

If we are not strong, we will be relentless and crazy ass brutal. Find a weak spot and exploit it.

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:
You don't lose anything if you are in the top 10.

I've been wondering how we got lucky enough to have 10 groups who've all decided not to bounce around the map from week to week, whatever the reason. I've been glad we ended up with the Top 10 (or 12 or so) we have, though.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm wondering if we'll see some of the top 10 make drastic changes in week 10, when there's no chance for anyone to respond.

Goblin Squad Member

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:


And in all honesty, Golgotha is out on a limb a bit being the notable evil presence in the game, and I'd fault you even less for wanting to influence who your neighbors are.

In all honesty, UNC has been wearing that crown a lot longer and with virtually none of the support that Golgotha has received.

Goblinworks Lead Game Designer

2 people marked this as a favorite.

To be perfectly honest, I expected the disparity to between the top and bottom ends of the settlement population range to be smaller such that a 10-30% bonus would mean something. Given the disparities between even 20th place and 30th place the hunker down bonus means a lot less than I intended. Also other than Librarians of Doom no one in the bottom range of the list, the people who could really benefit from the Hunker Down bonus, have not been trying to use it much (and we have a lot of guilds who have never who have never updated their drafts to take advantage of changes in the list).

Also at this point I was expecting more consolidation. I know I harp on this every time I talk about the Land Rush, but all the guilds with 5-6 people need to find someone bigger to join up with. This is a contest where coming in 31st place (or 34th depending on how you look at it) gets you nothing. I don't think any guild in the bottom fifteen would turn down another five or six people in their ranks.

Goblin Squad Member

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I doubt anyone in the top 15 would turn down another five or six people.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:


And in all honesty, Golgotha is out on a limb a bit being the notable evil presence in the game, and I'd fault you even less for wanting to influence who your neighbors are.

In all honesty, UNC has been wearing that crown a lot longer and with virtually none of the support that Golgotha has received.

You won me over to look at you as "non toxic" when you started to pledge to use the system as intended to get what you want rather than abuse the system. I hope that you can keep to that pledge and enjoy the game that way.

Now you look like an important part of play as is intended by the design. Not that I am keen on bandits, just to be clear. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:
...make drastic changes in week 10, when there's no chance for anyone to respond.

I've been trying not to mention that idea, in spoken or written word, out of fear of planting just that thought in a mind that hadn't considered it; I'm certain, though, there are minds that're waiting to pull that trigger. It's one thing I'm definitely watching for, and it'll shape the first established opinions, of groups that do that, in the minds of Early Enrollees.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I think the issue for a group of 5 is - would you actually join up with a group of 10 or one of 25+

So consolidation will not make a lot difference at the bottom end.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Gaskon wrote:
...make drastic changes in week 10, when there's no chance for anyone to respond.
I've been trying not to mention that idea, in spoken or written word, out of fear of planting just that thought in a mind that hadn't considered it; I'm certain, though, there are minds that're waiting to pull that trigger. It's one thing I'm definitely watching for, and it'll shape the first established opinions, of groups that do that, in the minds of Early Enrollees.

I mean, AB is a very shiny looking hex...

*cackles*

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:


And in all honesty, Golgotha is out on a limb a bit being the notable evil presence in the game, and I'd fault you even less for wanting to influence who your neighbors are.

In all honesty, UNC has been wearing that crown a lot longer and with virtually none of the support that Golgotha has received.

You won me over to look at you as "non toxic" when you started to pledge to use the system as intended to get what you want rather than abuse the system. I hope that you can keep to that pledge and enjoy the game that way.

Now you look like an important part of play as is intended by the design. Not that I am keen on bandits, just to be clear. ;)

Couldn't say it in better words as Bringslite

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:
I'm wondering if we'll see some of the top 10 make drastic changes in week 10, when there's no chance for anyone to respond.

The manipulators will have nothing to lose in week 10s draft. It should be a total goat rope.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Morbis wrote:

I mean, AB is a very shiny looking hex...

*cackles*

Evil gnome is eeeevil. Imagine the humour in Golgotha moving to AB in Week 9, and then back to W in Week 10.

Hilarity ensues! ;-)

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:

I think the issue for a group of 5 is - would you actually join up with a group of 10 or one of 25+

So consolidation will not make a lot difference at the bottom end.

We picked a group of 7 and another group of 6. Now if we can just get three of four more that size....


Lee Hammock wrote:
Also at this point I was expecting more consolidation. I know I harp on this every time I talk about the Land Rush, but all the guilds with 5-6 people need to find someone bigger to join up with. This is a contest where coming in 31st place (or 34th depending on how you look at it) gets you nothing. I don't think any guild in the bottom fifteen would turn down another five or six people in their ranks.

That would be nice, but the biggest problem is getting a hold of these small groups. On top of that there are plenty that don't really 'get' what the Landrush list is or the full intended mechanics; and they aren't participating in the forums or keeping quiet if they are. There are still new groups being created with few people in them.

Goblin Squad Member

Think about the alternative: no bonus at all and it's run based on pure numbers. There's even less protection at the bottom of the list. The bonus was never meant as a way to effectively give a group their spot early if they decided to stay in the same place for five of the weeks.

I predicted a lot of consolidation around week 5 or 6 too but now I will argue that we do have a lot of consolidation. Data from Virgil's Land Rush Leaderboard (1140 votes cast, excluding the Early Three):

Settlements with Population:1 - 71
Total Unsettled Voters (including previous) - 247
Total Settled Voters - 893
Percent of Voters Currently On the Map - 78

Saying only the top 33 of the 150 listed guilds makes it sound like lots of people are missing out, but nearly half those are 1-person guilds and 78% of people who have voted already have a spot somewhere on the map.

One last datum: 27% of the unsettled population is ranked #31-#40. Strategize with that how you will.

Goblin Squad Member

Hardin Steele wrote:
goat rope

I had to look that one up! That was in neither of my rural Ohio nor suburban Florida dialects.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:


And in all honesty, Golgotha is out on a limb a bit being the notable evil presence in the game, and I'd fault you even less for wanting to influence who your neighbors are.

In all honesty, UNC has been wearing that crown a lot longer and with virtually none of the support that Golgotha has received.

You're correct, though I was being somewhat literal since you are CN. You definitely wear that mantle as well, to be clear.

Goblin Squad Member

Lee Hammock wrote:

To be perfectly honest, I expected the disparity to between the top and bottom ends of the settlement population range to be smaller such that a 10-30% bonus would mean something. Given the disparities between even 20th place and 30th place the hunker down bonus means a lot less than I intended. Also other than Librarians of Doom no one in the bottom range of the list, the people who could really benefit from the Hunker Down bonus, have not been trying to use it much (and we have a lot of guilds who have never who have never updated their drafts to take advantage of changes in the list).

Also at this point I was expecting more consolidation. I know I harp on this every time I talk about the Land Rush, but all the guilds with 5-6 people need to find someone bigger to join up with. This is a contest where coming in 31st place (or 34th depending on how you look at it) gets you nothing. I don't think any guild in the bottom fifteen would turn down another five or six people in their ranks.

Is there any chance of getting Piazo, in their weekly email, to mention the Land Rush for PFO? And encourage folks to make sure to read the Goblin Works blogs? Since there is no contact information for these groups and I figure almost all of them are not paying attention to what's going on, that they may actually pay attention and participate if such a mention from Paizo was done.

Goblin Squad Member

If the guild leader had been required to have a Paizo account and to use that name in their Land Rush description, it would have been a lot easier to attempt recruitment and consolidation.


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Yeah, because synching Paizo with Goblinworks has worked so well for other stuff. Can't you tell, Fellow Goblin Squad Member?

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold,

Given that Lee has mentioned multiple times that it is their hope that the ones and two making up half the board would have consolidated by now, I think some simple means of contact could have been required. If you don't like Paizo accounts (though that would also have helped to get them into the community conversations), a website, email, etc. would have worked as well.


Context. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

If the content is true enough, the context doesn't matter nearly as much. If you want people to communicate, there has to be a means.


They can communicate with you, or most any other guild, if they are interested. I don't think we lose much by not being able to spam everyone with recruitment posts and emails.

Goblin Squad Member

Demon Gate wrote:
They can communicate with you, or most any other guild, if they are interested. I don't think we lose much by not being able to spam everyone with recruitment posts and emails.

Agreed. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but, "It's their loss." If they don't want to provide contact information on their land rush page, then I guess they don't want to be contacted. And they will be just one of many homeless visitors that might eventually settle somewhere - versus an opportunity to join early with a settlement and perhaps obtain a percentage of power/"say" in the settlement.

Nonetheless, there's definitely a LOT of recruitment threads here. I don't think we really need many more.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think we would have felt the need to keep creating and bumping recruitment threads if there had been a good way of communicating directly with other guilds in the Landrush. We grasp at every straw we see I suppose.

Anyway, no use crying over spilled milk, it is what it is.

Goblin Squad Member

Wurner wrote:
Anyway, no use crying over spilled milk, it is what it is.

How dare you.. spilled milk is a tragedy, and you should break into tears randomly throughout the day at the possibility of its spilling.


EoX Hobs wrote:
If the content is true enough, the context doesn't matter nearly as much.

Context always matters when you're making an inside joke. :)

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

Kitsune Aou wrote:
Nonetheless, there's definitely a LOT of recruitment threads here. I don't think we really need many more.

It is so much cleaner and easier to read important things when you simply hide all the recruitment threads :) At least that is what I have done.

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
EoX Hobs wrote:
If the content is true enough, the context doesn't matter nearly as much.
Context always matters when you're making an inside joke. :)

Unless you're not one of the people "inside", then context, again, doesn't seems to matter much. :)

Goblin Squad Member

I don't get it. Wait... is this some kind of joke??

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:
Hardin Steele wrote:
goat rope
I had to look that one up! That was in neither of my rural Ohio nor suburban Florida dialects.

"Goat Rope

goat rope--definition--A very confused situation"

"To teach new cowboys the art of roping a moving target, such as a horse or a steer, novices would be put in a pen full of goats, which were smaller and less dangerous, to hone their craft. The old-timers would gather to watch, drink, whoop and be amused by the ensuing melee. It was not a pretty sight."

"History: From LCDR Charles Breen, USN, who tried to untangle a goat's rope, only to be bitten by said goat, then to deck same goat, Mongo style, right as busload of tourists rounded the bend in time to think he was beating the crap out of a goat for no reason. This definition dates back to at least 1988."

When I was in high school in the middle/late 70s, we called would-be cowboys "goat ropers". They would dress in the western wear but probably had never been on a horse in their life.

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Sunnfire wrote:
Wurner wrote:
Anyway, no use crying over spilled milk, it is what it is.
How dare you.. spilled milk is a tragedy, and you should break into tears randomly throughout the day at the possibility of its spilling.

No milk, no cookies!


EoX Hobs wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
EoX Hobs wrote:
If the content is true enough, the context doesn't matter nearly as much.
Context always matters when you're making an inside joke. :)
Unless you're not one of the people "inside", then context, again, doesn't seems to matter much. :)

Ah, but you only make it inside by getting the context. Bwahaha!

Goblin Squad Member

If I didn't get the context, and thus didn't get inside, then I'm not participating in the joke. If I don't get to participate, then the context doesn't much matter to me. :)


Welp, your choice. You're missing out on a pretty sweet joke, though. There will never be another joke quite like it.

Goblin Squad Member

There may be many jokes like it, but this one is his.


Groucho Marx looked down from above and shed a single tear as he heard my joke.

A tear of joy, of course.

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