To be Mythic or not to be Mythic...


Wrath of the Righteous

Dark Archive

hey folks,

So I'm gearing up to run my next AP (my RotRL campaign is winding down) and my players are indicating they'd love to play Wrath of the Righteous and I'm pretty interested in it as well. I'm currently doing a read through and the story line is pretty awesome for 1-3 (not gotten to #4 yet), and the feel is very enjoyable as well.

However, I'm hung on the big question. Do I incorporate Mythic Rules or not?

So, I'd like to conduct a bit of a poll.

1. If you have, or are going to, run Wrath of the Righteous, would you do so using the mythic rules or convert it to non-mythic?

2. If you were going to run it as non-mythic, how would you convert it?

3. If you were going to run it as mythic, what would you change?

Thanks!

Grand Lodge

If I were going to run it, and I may have to after Carrion Crown, I would have to either come down really hard on my players and drastically yoke in their starting power level. It really depends upon the individual experience of your players. Very experienced players are gonna eat the path alive.

I am currently a playing an unoptimized character and two of our team just steam roll every encounter. It's incredibly frustrating to be part of a group where you don't even get to act because typical combats last less than a round.

The problem is that if you choose not to use Mythic rules your players are going to have a very tough time (unless you do heavy mods to the encounters)and it's heavily tied into the lore of the campaign.

I would suggest looking into what some others have done. Magnuskn (I may have mispelled his name) has a very long thread discussing his group's experience with the path and changes he has had to make. It would likely be a huge help to you.

If I were to do it I would do it like this.

15 pt buy
No min-maxing explicitly laid out at creation.
One stat below 10 and one above 15 before racial adjustment.
No synthesist summoners (personal preference)

I would also likely half the number of tiers.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I have gone on at length about modifications to Mythic in other posts. I'm going to toss that out the window.

Don't bother with Mythic as-written. It either needs a massive rewrite, or WotR needs a significant rewrite to be an effective threat to Mythic players.

Do this instead: Incorporate Hero Points, with a starting maximum of 3 Hero Points. When the PCs finish book 1, have them become Heroic. ;) The maximum number of Hero Points they get is their Tier +3 (thus 4 Hero Points at Tier 1, etc.). In addition, the characters will recharge Hero Points by one point a day.

If you don't bother using the Mythic abilities of the enemies (outside of passive skills that are incorporated into skill-blocks) then the Mythic villains won't be significantly overpowered. The players should be able to prevail against most of the foes (though they will likely want to run when it comes to Demon Lords).

This will significantly reduce the complexity of the game. You won't need for everyone to buy a new book (as Hero Points are explained in the Advanced Player's Guide). And it may very well speed up play as players aren't pondering if they should use such-and-such ability.


I too voice against using the mythic rules in the AP as written.
As tangent said, either you need to work hard to keep the mythic in check or you need to work hard to challenge your players in the AP, because by book 3 everything in the book is one-shotted before getting even a chance to act.

Hero points are imho a better alternative and tangent's take on it including the accelerated hero point recharge is fair enough!


I plan on using Mythic as-is, but I already need to add side-quests & make adjustments to the AP to keep my players on track XP-wise, since I have 7 players at the table, all with rolled stats, and the assumption for the AP is 15-point buy & 4 PC's. So, yeah- take that as you will :)

Dark Archive

First off, thank you _VERY_ much for your replies!

I do have a few questions/comments


  • Tangent101 - I Love the Hero Point idea. That is very solid.

  • Tangent101 wrote:
    The maximum number of Hero Points they get is their Tier +3 (thus 4 Hero Points at Tier 1, etc.).

    Do you envision the tiering adding anything else? or just more Hero Points?

  • Tangent101 wrote:
    If you don't bother using the Mythic abilities of the enemies (outside of passive skills that are incorporated into skill-blocks) then the Mythic villains won't be significantly overpowered. The players should be able to prevail against most of the foes (though they will likely want to run when it comes to Demon Lords).

    Suggestions on ways to make it so they could have a chance against say Baphomet & Deskari?

  • Tanget101 & Krinn - Do you feel there is anyway to use the bad guys, as written with mythic abilities without opening up the full range of mythic rules to the players?

    For example, fewer tiers? No mythic feats? Higher Point buy for stats? A hack job on mythic to do hero points AND stat increases without the full range of mythic abilities? Or is it better just to scrap it all, use hero points and go from there?

Thank you all so much for your help!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, no. I didn't envision adding anything else. I suppose you could at Tier 9 include the immortality aspect in the final book of the AP... but Hero Points do a lot of what the underlying Mythic does - including extra actions and the like!

As such, I'd probably not allow Mythic Feats or Mythic abilities of any sort. Just Hero Points. However, you could allow the Hero Point-specific Feats and spells, which would undoubtedly give players an extra advantage. And you could also allow bonus normal feats for each odd Mythic Tier (and even a +1 stat increase for each even Tier).

As for the enemies' Mythic abilities... using the Mythic abilities really just opens up a can of worms for complexity for you. What you could do instead is give Mythic enemies Hero Points as well, along with any Mythic feat or ability that is a static boost (for instance, Mythic Power Attack adding +3 damage instead of +2 for every 4 points of Base Attack Bonus).


As much as I think that's a nice idea, Tangent101, by excluding the Mythic it also excludes the PC's becoming what they should be by the end of the AP- Nascent Demigods. And with no Mythic, there's no ability to grant followers spells and a host of other options.

To each there own, no badwrongfun implied :) Different playstyles and expectations for different folks!

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Changing Man wrote:

As much as I think that's a nice idea, Tangent101, by excluding the Mythic it also excludes the PC's becoming what they should be by the end of the AP- Nascent Demigods. And with no Mythic, there's no ability to grant followers spells and a host of other options.

To each there own, no badwrongfun implied :) Different playstyles and expectations for different folks!

You don't need rules to do either of those tings.

-Skeld

Liberty's Edge

I have also been considering this as my next AP run but without Mythic. I'll keep an eye on this thread.

Grand Lodge

Sadly, I know at least one of my players is gunning pretty hard for this to be our next AP. The problem is that the whole reason he wants to play it are the Mythic rules.

I'm kind of hoping that he gets another fixation before we finish CC.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tybid wrote:

Sadly, I know at least one of my players is gunning pretty hard for this to be our next AP. The problem is that the whole reason he wants to play it are the Mythic rules.

I'm kind of hoping that he gets another fixation before we finish CC.

After reading up on the Mythic rules and others' experiences with them, you might be ok with awarding 1 Mythic Tier at the end of each module. Between that, lowering the class level progression (maybe go to 15-17 instead of 20), cutting some of the artifacts and loot back, and balancing the out-of-box threats against your groups characters, player ability/experience, and so on, you can probably put together a high-powered but stable game.

These are new rules, though, and they do some out-of-the-ordinary stuff, so it will require some constant fiddling on your part.

-Skeld


It depends on how experienced your gaming group is. I'm certain a completely non-mythic party can complete WoTR. It's not really that difficult of an AP, although it depends on how hard your party optimizes.

I know there's a thread somewhere here that test ran a level 17-19 party through book 5, and defeated Baphomet without a single casualty.

If your players need the boost, then the hero points suggestion is good.

Also, there isn't any need to change up the mythic monsters. Just because your players don't have access to mythic powers doesn't mean the monsters also can't use them. In fact, having monsters use mythic powers while players are unable to access them might even make them more epic to fight.

Dark Archive

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After doing some thinking, I'm currently leaning towards the following and I'd dearly love some feed back on it.


  • 20 point buy on statistics with nothing lower than an 8 or higher than an 18 before racial modifiers.

  • Nixing the advancements you receive (feats/abilities/etc...) that you get as you raise in tiers, but keeping the Tier structure itself to award a +1 to an ability score each tier (total of +10 to ability scores), a bonus feat every even level (non-mythic feats), and Tangent's idea on Hero Points.

I'd like to be able to run the AP largely as written with the bad guys being "Mythic", but I don't want things to be 1 shotted. I want a degree of epicness to it.

Thanks!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

That sounds good to me. I'd recommend, however, reducing the Mythic stat increases to +1 every even level - between stat increases for going to level 20 and Mythic, you'd have a total of +10 to stats before magic. Also, I'd probably limit people to a stat no higher than 17 before racial modifiers... and would be tempted to say 16.

Small note: using the Mythic rules for the villains will cause problems. Some Mythic Feats, such as Mythic Power Attack, are broken. At the very least, nerf Mythic Power Attack so it has no secondary bonuses and only provides a +3 to damage for every +4 of BAB (ie, the same as Mythic Deadly Aim).

Then again, I completely revamped the Critical Hit system with a critical auto-confirming but only doing automatic maximum damage times half of the modifier (thus a x4 weapon would do double the maximum damage). I find it speeds things up and doesn't result in overkill criticals.


Or you could add a double +1 at every odd level and a bonus feat at every even level, so you end up with at most a +5 bonus to two scores.


A better option, imo, would be to half the number of tiers the PC's gain and maybe cut out the few mythic abilities that have been repeatedly highlighted on this forum.

Or

Cut out the problems and either make the stat increases +1 or make them have to be applied to different ability scores to avoid crazy-high damage/DC's/etc.

I think cutting the mythic rules completely would be a real shame because the 'problems' that have been pointed out are easily fixed and you could even tell your players that you may alter others if you feel, in game, that they are going to throw out the balance of the AP. Mythic rules, in general, are very good.

Dark Archive

stuart haffenden wrote:

A better option, imo, would be to half the number of tiers the PC's gain and maybe cut out the few mythic abilities that have been repeatedly highlighted on this forum.

Or

Cut out the problems and either make the stat increases +1 or make them have to be applied to different ability scores to avoid crazy-high damage/DC's/etc.

I think cutting the mythic rules completely would be a real shame because the 'problems' that have been pointed out are easily fixed and you could even tell your players that you may alter others if you feel, in game, that they are going to throw out the balance of the AP. Mythic rules, in general, are very good.

Thanks for the feedback Stuart.

Out of curiosity, has anyone compiled a list of good things to cut out somewhere and I'm just not seeing it?

Thanks!


Check out the thread - Nervous about stating this AP - it has most things covered.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Yes, Jimmy. I've posted a list of stuff to cut in several WotR threads.

But here's three simple ones:

1. Do not allow the Archmage spellcasting ability to be Swift Spells - have them act like the Hierophant ability and be Standard Actions. (Seriously, Mythic spellcasting eliminates the need for the Swift Spell feat. Not good.)

2. Nerf Mythic Power Attack so it acts like Mythic Deadly Aim - the only benefit is an extra +1 to damage per +2. No doubling of damage on a crit or the like.

3. Nerf normal Critical Hits so they only behave like Vital Strike. Thus the only thing modified for a critical is the number of dice you roll. If you have a fighter with +28 to damage who manages to crit with a long sword? He's doing 2d8+28, or 3d8+28 if he has Mythic Improved Critical. (This goes for the enemies as well!)

Those three bits will significantly diminish the overkill of Mythic. You may need to disallow certain Mythic spells, or perhaps require a Mythic Spell to be cast one spell level higher than normal (thus Mythic Magic Missile would be a 2nd level spell).

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