Alpha first impressions

[Xaer]

Brilliant game so far, feels very raw and magical and adventurous to me right now. (I love it)

Some features need to be removed to improve the Alpha build. ( Which I think says a good thing about your progress so far)

• Remove monster hit-point/stamina bar [unless I have anatomy skill or a wondrous item of see hitpoint bar]
  
• Remove Global Chat [unless everyone has a linked crystal ball or telepathic bonds]
  
• Remove the World Map [let me buy a map or learn cartography skill]
  
• Remove the Nav Map [Unless I have tracking skill engaged, let me physically spot enemies/players or learn what different resource nodes look like. Could take advantage of perception/awareness skills]
  
• Remove the Numbers from the Damage [ Hit/Miss/Critical or maybe the dice roll I got ]
  
• Remove some of the Character Sheet [ unless I have good appraisal skill, I don’t need this cheap way out to semi-identify items for me by figuring out which armor gives more resistance or protection while quickly changing between armors and looking for the differences]
  

[Kadere]

I started out typing up individual thoughts to this, but they quickly all turned into the same point;

You seem to want to take all the MMO staples out of this MMO, and make it more like TT in terms of player capabilities. All of these things need to be carefully considered if they are to be changed into optional things to be unlocked, because their immediate lack will quickly alienate new players coming in looking for a sandbox MMO (as opposed to most of us, who have come in looking for Pathfinder).

You can probably get away with one or two (I'm looking at you, global chat *throat slitting gesture*) but to do all of them would be quite a bad idea, I think.

[Audoucet]

Xaer wrote:

Brilliant game so far, feels very raw and magical and adventurous to me right now. (I love it)

Some features need to be removed to improve the Alpha build. ( Which I think says a good thing about your progress so far)

• Remove monster hit-point/stamina bar [unless I have anatomy skill or a wondrous item of see hitpoint bar]
  
• Remove Global Chat [unless everyone has a linked crystal ball or telepathic bonds]
  
• Remove the World Map [let me buy a map or learn cartography skill]
  
• Remove the Nav Map [Unless I have tracking skill engaged, let me physically spot enemies/players or learn what different resource nodes look like. Could take advantage of perception/awareness skills]
  
• Remove the Numbers from the Damage [ Hit/Miss/Critical or maybe the dice roll I got ]
  
• Remove some of the Character Sheet [ unless I have good appraisal skill, I don’t need this cheap way out to semi-identify items for me by figuring out which armor gives more resistance or protection while quickly changing between armors and looking for the differences]
  

No to the map thing, except if you give me a free Occulus Rift, a pressurized tank for 6th sense simulation, and a big time dolby installation.

Some convenience things are necessary, and will stay necessary as long as we can't directly plug into the matrix.

[<Tavernhold>Malrunwa Soves]

I agree with some of the issues you bring up. One that I don't and can comment on is removing the numbers from damage. I should be able to tell if my attack bounces off damage reduction or sinks in.

[Guurzak]

Read Ryan's post about information disparity here, and then think about what kind of gap you're creating between cheaters and non cheaters any time you attempt to conceal info from the player which you have already sent to his client.

They don't have the resources to build and manage a real-time cheat detector process like Warden, so the only way to protect the bulk of the population from the hardcore is to make all info they send to client readily available to the player.

The choice is not between maps and no maps; the choice is between maps for everyone and maps for a privileged few.

[Kadere]

Guurzak wrote:

Read Ryan's post about information disparity here, and then think about what kind of gap you're creating between cheaters and non cheaters any time you attempt to conceal info from the player which you have already sent to his client.

They don't have the resources to build and manage a real-time cheat detector process like Warden, so the only way to protect the bulk of the population from the hardcore is to make all info send to client readily available to the player.

The choice is not between maps and no maps, the choice is between maps for everyone and maps for a privileged few.

I didn't think about this at all. Excellent point.

[Bluddwolf]

I agree with Kadere in that these functions (with exception of global chat) are needed staples of an MMO. MMOs are far more dynamic and layered (mathematically) than a TT RPG. There are no pause buttons from the action. TT doesn't have a DM that will attack your character while you're in the bathroom, but an MMO will if your not AFK in a really safe spot.

In an MMO you can't refer to an equipment guide while playing simultaneously to see the stats on the armor you are wearing, the armor you're about to pick up or the armor your opponent is wearing.

[Iatronas]

I think Xaer brings up a reasonable intrinsic argument that could be used to add meaning to some less-than useful skills. I'm not in agreement with all of them, but I'm happy to see them brought up.

Just like those mentioned above, I don't want characters/players to be able to use cheats and mods above what GW chooses to release - so these may not be reasonable ideas.

Global chat is an ongoing issue, but I suspect we'll have it anyway (I just hope I can opt out).

The damage numbers issue will need to be fixed from current state to be more clear which attacks are player and which are mob. There are times when the last mob dies and then the auto-switch will start smacking a party-member (friendly fire concept seems to be active - just look at these mace-like bruises I have).

For the original intent, maybe a tiered method - such as a combination of perception and a mapping skill to add stealthed characters to appear on your minimap.

For the world map idea, there could be auto-updated areas near your affiliated Settlement and hidden areas that become uncovered as the character explores using a Fog of War concept, but then expires and becomes rehidden over time (say 24 hours). Maybe PoIs/resource nodes, etc stay on your World Map until you discover that they've been overtaken or destroyed. It could be a use of Knowledge: Local - functions as a knowledge mapping associated skill that influences the level of detail and rate of decay.

PF TT always struggles to make knowledge skills valuable without truly being required; it'll be even worse in a MMO setting where max/min is more important to remain viable. I think there should be some gain or reason to spend XP on them even within a MMO setting.

[KotC Carbon D. Metric]

Iatronas wrote:

PF TT always struggles to make knowledge skills valuable without truly being required; it'll be even worse in a MMO setting where max/min is more important to remain viable. I think there should be some gain or reason to spend XP on them even within a MMO setting.

I think they more less "solved" the problem with Knowledge in that it directly relates as to what type and quality items you will "loot" from chests, gathering nodes, and some corpses. If anything I'm seeing "Everyone NEEDS near maxed Knowledges to compete gathering/loot-wise with other specialists.

But that's just another tradeoff PCs will have to make when spending XP, meaningful choices.

[Crash_00]

Most of these just aren't feasible for an MMO, and would likely drive players away or be completely ineffective.

Remove monster hit-point/stamina bar [unless I have anatomy skill or a wondrous item of see hitpoint bar]
--The monster data will just be uploaded on a website, people will download it, people will make mods, people will still have the data.

Remove Global Chat [unless everyone has a linked crystal ball or telepathic bonds]
--People will just use forums, 3rd party chat programs, and the like to communicate.

Remove the World Map [let me buy a map or learn cartography skill]
--People will just keep another tab open with the world map on it. Likely an actual mod will be put out for in game that tracks character data too.

Remove the Nav Map [Unless I have tracking skill engaged, let me physically spot enemies/players or learn what different resource nodes look like. Could take advantage of
perception/awareness skills]
--Again, people will just make mods to track all the data already being sent to you PC and put it on the minimap for you (or create a minimal).

Remove the Numbers from the Damage [ Hit/Miss/Critical or maybe the dice roll I got ]
--The data will be available online to calculate you damage and, with monster data online, it isn't hard to figure out how you attacks are affecting mobs. In addition, mods will be created to represent both sides of the equation as well.

Remove some of the Character Sheet [ unless I have good appraisal skill, I don’t need this cheap way out to semi-identify items for me by figuring out which armor gives more resistance or protection while quickly changing between armors and looking for the differences]
--Again, the data will just be available online or through mods.

All these ideas do is promote going to a 3rd party source to get the information/capability. That just hurts the people that don't know how to get a 3rd party mod. I would rather not see GW put in time to keep mods from being built and instead focus on creating new content and mechanics for the game.

[Pryde]

Xaer wrote:

Brilliant game so far, feels very raw and magical and adventurous to me right now. (I love it)

Some features need to be removed to improve the Alpha build. ( Which I think says a good thing about your progress so far)

Remove monster hit-point/stamina bar [unless I have anatomy skill or a wondrous item of see hitpoint bar]

Information is important in an MMO, especially when it comes to PvP. I would rather now have to play a guessing game as to the health of my opponent. I don't generally play MMOs for realism.

Quote:

Remove Global Chat [unless everyone has a linked crystal ball or telepathic bonds]

MMOs are generally about socializing and convenience. By making a game inconvenient you generally make it less approachable, thus less accessible for the general public. It's a slippery slope when you start stripping MMO features (look at ESO).

Quote:

Remove the World Map [let me buy a map or learn cartography skill]

Quote:

Remove the Nav Map [Unless I have tracking skill engaged, let me physically spot enemies/players or learn what different resource nodes look like. Could take advantage of perception/awareness skills]

Hiding stock game features behind skills and such basically makes these skills a complete necessity. You also create an advantage between those who do, and those who do not.

Quote:

Remove the Numbers from the Damage [ Hit/Miss/Critical or maybe the dice roll I got ]

This should be optional, and not forced on everyone. Not being able to see your performance makes it much harder to optimize your character. Look at ESO, where people get completely annhiliated and are left to wonder what happened to them. In pvp transparency in combat, and whats happening to your character is of the heightest importance. Being able to see status effects, incoming/outgoing damage, is an absolute necessity.

Quote:

Remove some of the Character Sheet [ unless I have good appraisal skill, I don’t need this cheap way out to semi-identify items for me by figuring out which armor gives more resistance or protection while quickly changing between armors and looking for the differences]

You might not need it, but others do. Some people don't like to play MMOs in complete ignorance, they like to min-max. Finding the best armor sets, skill combos, etc. The game shouldn't try to hide this stuff. Making things trivial when they should be trivial is GOOD.

[DeciusBrutus]

All of those suggestions have the practical effect of shifting advantage to players who acquire that information by other means. Adding a barrier to entry like that is a Bad thing.

If, on the other hand, you just want to not see it yourself (rather than cause other players to not see it), you can disable the interface layer and hide all of that.

[KarlBob]

DeciusBrutus wrote:

All of those suggestions have the practical effect of shifting advantage to players who acquire that information by other means. Adding a barrier to entry like that is a Bad thing.

If, on the other hand, you just want to not see it yourself (rather than cause other players to not see it), you can disable the interface layer and hide all of that.

I 100% support the idea of giving each player the ability to hide any part of the interface that he or she doesn't want to see. Those who want to go the hardcore simulationist route can hide virtually everything. Those who want to see all of the interface elements can do so without adding third-party programs.

Note that the OP said "I didn't think of this at all. Excellent point." I think that a lot of TT/PnP players will arrive with similar requests, because they haven't thought about the cheaters, either.

On the other hand, the MMO fans are going to have to get used to seeing in-character conversations on their screens. Hopefully, this game will have a mature enough audience to respond with something other than profanity and Chuck Norris jokes.

[Audoucet]

KarlBob wrote:

Note that the OP said "I didn't think of this at all. Excellent point." I think that a lot of TT/PnP players will arrive with similar requests, because they haven't thought about the cheaters, either.

Not the OP.

[KarlBob]

Audoucet wrote:

KarlBob wrote:

Note that the OP said "I didn't think of this at all. Excellent point." I think that a lot of TT/PnP players will arrive with similar requests, because they haven't thought about the cheaters, either.

Not the OP.

By gum, you're right. Well, I hope the OP thought it, anyway. For that matter, I hope the OP came back to read all the discussion he or she inspired. Sometimes they don't.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Also, hiding the monsters' HP is just silly. Any good Game Master will give you a straight answer if you ask, "Does the monster look badly injured?"

Sometimes they'll require a Heal check. I never do—if a PC is out of his league, I want to realize it when he realizes his max damage scythe crit was no more than a scratch to his foe.

Seeing an enemy's health bar is effectively already in most Pathfinder games.

[Being]

...and had general chat been removed I would not have been entertained by the pure drama of KC's Hat Dance of the Intolerant.

[Audoucet]

General Chat doesn't really add anything worth adding to the game, I think it should go. It generally becomes just a big insult contest.

[Being]

Then there should be some means of communication regarding escalation alerts.

At least large bells to ring that can be heard from afar.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Audoucet wrote:

It generally becomes just a big insult contest.

Your face is a big insult contest.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Being wrote:

Then there should be some means of communication regarding escalation alerts.

At least large bells to ring that can be heard from afar.

Perhaps a feature of the Watchtower that lets you "light the beacon"/"ring the churchy bells", issuing a big notice to every player within anywhere from 1-5 hexes announcing the current state of a designated cycle (or a message selected by the player). To prevent spam, it can only be sounded once every hour or the like.

This could also give rise to people capturing the watchtowers and sounding them themselves, issuing false information. It wouldn't fool anybody for long, but if you don't have at least one person manning that tower at all times, it could be a big nuisance. Whether that's "clever gameplay" or "potentially obnoxious" is open for debate.

[KarlBob]

I usually leave general chat covered up by party chat or guild chat, but I see no reason to remove general chat from the game.

I wonder whether we'll eventually be able to create custom chat channels. They can be pretty useful, especially when you can rig them with passwords.

[Kitsune Aou]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Audoucet wrote:

It generally becomes just a big insult contest.

Your face is a big insult contest.

I chuckled. The wife chuckled. This was a good post.

[Xaer]

That raw non-standard mmorpg is what i felt the alpha-build had the most going for it when i played it.
It will feel less raw/magical/adventurous as more "mmo staples" are added.

• Big Navigation Arrows telling when and where to level.
  
• Newbie Tutorial Island.
  
• Progress bars to the next achievement
  
• Story line NPCs which repeat their story to anyone who will click next next next
  
• Auto group/partying finder tool
  
• Shared banking between alts
  
• Auto travel pathing to points on a map
  

One of the more popular real sandbox multiplayer games is Dayz right now. It is missing many of these staples and people flock to it.
Maybe these staples are crutches that are crippling the genre of mmorpg?

Player built databases of all monster stats? Maybe there should be random weak/strong/brute/tough monsters (just like in table top)?

Player made maps? Make the landscape dynamic and cartography skill produce maps that are sell-able and more useful than external maps.

Third party chat tools? Make spells or items like Message/Whisper/Telepathy more useful than any third party chat tool.

I understand and agree with the protections to keep things fair against the hackers. ( i have been reading what Ryan Dancey has been preaching for over a year ) But there are client/server tricks that can be done, similar to the GM doing secret rolls behind a screen, instead of exactly how much damage is done to the monster.

Keeping these boiler plate features is removing features of the Intellectual Property of Pathfinder.

[Kadere]

KarlBob wrote:

Audoucet wrote:

KarlBob wrote:

Note that the OP said "I didn't think of this at all. Excellent point." I think that a lot of TT/PnP players will arrive with similar requests, because they haven't thought about the cheaters, either.

Not the OP.

By gum, you're right. Well, I hope the OP thought it, anyway. For that matter, I hope the OP came back to read all the discussion he or she inspired. Sometimes they don't.

I'm still the OP in your heart, though, right? /sobbing

[Kobold Catgirl]

Okay, first, Tutorial Island is something only a single MMO has done, Runescape. Nobody had mentioned it here until you posted.

Second, Tutorial Island is one of the most helpful and accurate tutorials for a video game I've ever seen, clearly explaining what must be done. Sure, it's clearly explaining "Our game is repetitive and kind of ugly", but it's still explaining it clearly.

I certainly hope PFO makes a good tutorial. Bad tutorials mean nobody wants to play.

Third, most of the things you brought up fit in two categories: One, nobody here requested them. Second, they seem to be weirdly referencing Runescape a lot.

[Kadere]

Xaer wrote:

That raw non-standard mmorpg is what i felt the alpha-build had the most going for it when i played it.

It will feel less raw/magical/adventurous as more "mmo staples" are added.

• Big Navigation Arrows telling when and where to level.
  
• Newbie Tutorial Island.
  
• Progress bars to the next achievement
  
• Story line NPCs which repeat their story to anyone who will click next next next
  
• Auto group/partying finder tool
  
• Shared banking between alts
  
• Auto travel pathing to points on a map
  

One of the more popular real sandbox multiplayer games is Dayz right now. It is missing many of these staples and people flock to it.
Maybe these staples are crutches that are crippling the genre of mmorpg?

You are confusing the concepts of MMO and Themepark. Just because they have so often gone hand in hand, doesn't mean they are the same things.

Your points in the OP are traditional MMO staples. You largely can't go without them without greatly raising the barrier of entry (for which DayZ is actually an excellent example). Your new examples are themepark staples, and do not belong in this style of game (just, as noted, they don't belong in DayZ. Are they having problems with these things creeping in as a natural consequence of being a big multiplayer game?)

Quote:

Keeping these boiler plate features is removing features of the Intellectual Property of Pathfinder.

To quibble - most of what you are suggesting are TT mechanics released for public use under the OGL. They have little to do with the IP of Pathfinder (which is more like setting stuff).

But, setting that aside - the goal here is not to make Pathfinder: The Video Game. This isn't Baldurs Gate or Neverwinter Nights. The goal is to create an MMO. Removing certain features of the TT is absolutely essential to the success of the project in this regard. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

[Crash_00]

Again, your examples of solutions just aren't viable.

Random monster templates would either have to not be a huge difference (in which case they wouldn't affect the database that much) or would have to be a huge difference (in which case they would affect gameplay horribly unless they were easily able to be differentiated). If they are able to be differentiated easily, then it just becomes more entries in the database (instead of bandit you have weak/strong/brute/tough bandit). I believe the game already essentially does this with color coding the names (white, yellow, red). So the database would just have the stat averages for each one.

Again, being dynamic would not have much affect on a mapping mod. Players could just have it read the same data that they would be using to make player maps. At worst it's a website, best someone that's good at coding is able to make a mod that you pull up in the game.

How exactly are ingame spells supposed to be more useful than things like Teamspeak and Mumble? That's a design trap there.

The small team can think of ways to try and program around all this, and ultimately alienate a bunch of players in the process. Or, they could embrace the nature of an MMO and focus on the more important things, like a great system of mechanics for the core of the game.

They've already said they don't have the resources to program an anti-cheat tool like Warden, and honestly, if you design the game right, you really don't have to for the most part.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Don't forget Purple! I fought a purple Ogre Behemoth. Scary dude. I kicked his ass!

After kiting him for ten minutes. Did I mention anywhere how ogres are kinda boring?

[KarlBob]

Kadere wrote:

KarlBob wrote:

Audoucet wrote:

KarlBob wrote:

Note that the OP said "I didn't think of this at all. Excellent point." I think that a lot of TT/PnP players will arrive with similar requests, because they haven't thought about the cheaters, either.

Not the OP.

By gum, you're right. Well, I hope the OP thought it, anyway. For that matter, I hope the OP came back to read all the discussion he or she inspired. Sometimes they don't.

I'm still the OP in your heart, though, right? /sobbing

There, there. Of course you are.

[KarlBob]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Okay, first, Tutorial Island is something only a single MMO has done, Runescape. Nobody had mentioned it here until you posted.

Second, Tutorial Island is one of the most helpful and accurate tutorials for a video game I've ever seen, clearly explaining what must be done. Sure, it's clearly explaining "Our game is repetitive and kind of ugly", but it's still explaining it clearly.

I certainly hope PFO makes a good tutorial. Bad tutorials mean nobody wants to play.

Third, most of the things you brought up fit in two categories: One, nobody here requested them. Second, they seem to be weirdly referencing Runescape a lot.

Everquest 2 had a tutorial island, too. Eventually they scrapped it, but it was there.

[TEO Cheatle]

KC, fought the same guy, he was with 20 of his pals though, so it was a bit more to it than that.....

Also, is it just me, or do Ogres get pissed off/bored, run away from you, but instead of going back the way they came they get confused and run around?

[Guurzak]

Conan had a tutorial island. Tortuga was the best part of the game.

Shadowbane did too. You could level up to 10 in the non pvp starter area before being forced into cold deadly real world.

DAoC has one now, added long after their peak.

[Wurner]

Anarchy Online has one too.

[Audoucet]

Guurzak wrote:

Conan had a tutorial island. Tortuga was the best part of the game.

Shadowbane did too. You could level up to 10 in the non pvp starter area before being forced into cold deadly real world.

DAoC has one now, added long after their peak.

"Woah, Tortuga was awsome !!!!!! this game is GREAT, WoW killer !

Mmh. Mmh... ? S+#$, my sound system must have a problem, I don't hear the dialogs anymore..."

[Elorebaen]

I appreciate the OP's sentiment. We are already creating a game that many would say is not viable, so there is no reason not to continue to think outside of the box!

[Kobold Catgirl]

Wow, weird. Google only turned up one example. And still only shows the one.

I blame Google.

[Being]

There is scope creep... and then there is cost/return creep. Google appears to have a relationship with Runescape, but whether that is Runescape's doing or Googles's... most likely Runescapes's...

The original Everquest has a tutorial island now. I was going to say Everquest now has a tutorial island, but that might be too close to EQ Next for comfort.