Earning capital with the downtime rules; Am I understanding this correctly?


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 57 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Say I have a business capable of earning me 10 magic capital each day (among other forms of capital if I so choose), on its own.

I am off adventuring for 28 days. Therefore my business earns 280 magic capital, minus 4 magic for capital attrition, for a total of 276 magic capital.

When I return to the settlement loaded down with gold and other treasures, I can essentially pay for as much of that capital as I can afford using the earned cost? And it just sits there accumulating until I am able to pay for it?

This essentially creates two pools of capital for me to track. The capital that is owned by the business and which is useless to me until I pay for it, and the capital that I've already payed for, which can be used for a variety of different things (such as magic item creation in the case of magic capital).

Is that correct? Am I understanding the rule correctly? If so, accumulating capital is MUCH quicker than I would have thought.

Previously, I was thinking any accumulated capital was completely wasted unless you paid for it right away, but then I found the following passage in Ultimate Campaign:

If you cannot pay the costs you've incurred (either with your own capital or by borrowing from another character), you gain no benefit from those downtime activities until the day you do pay.

Am I interpreting that correctly? Looking at the Downtime Tracking Sheet provided in Ultimate Campaign, I've also noticed an "earnings" section as well as a "capital" section, which seems to support this interpretation.

Also, what building costs are the downtime rules referring to in the Upkeep phase section? The rooms, teams, and buildings themselves have no listed costs that I can find. The only thing I can think of are the managers you hired (if any).


Businesses (rooms) have a cost as you've mentioned before. As they will make downtime checks every day unless you fire them (for example) and you will have to pay for that. however there are no additional costs unless they are specifically mentioned. (damaged buildings and managers)

You will indeed have 2 pools if you chose to not have the capital pay for itself. Remember:

"In most cases, using the downtime rules
doesn’t change the costs for performing the action, but it
might allow you to spend capital instead of gp as per Table
2–1: Capital Values (see page 77). You can substitute 1 point
of Goods or Labor for 20 gp, 1 point of Inf luence for 30 gp,
and 1 point of Magic for 100 gp where appropriate. You
can combine multiple types of capital when substituting
for a gp value."

So you can have the capital pay for itself as every point of magic would cost you 50g and you could substitute it for 100g if appropriate. (and in my understanding, spending magical capital to fuel a magicstore would qualify)

So it might just be easier to reduce the magical capital to usable only for simplicities sake. As judging from your post, your not using it, and every day you will just get more.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So I could have 1/3 of my magic capital paying for the other 2/3? I would have to pay for that 1/3 first though, right? What if I only need to pay 25gp per Magic Capital thanks to my Focused Oversseer feat? How exactly does that impact capital paying for itself?

Do I have to pay the ENTIRE cost? Or can I pay for the capital a bit at a time, as needed? Does the business continue to function if I haven't bought all the available capital in full? If I am forced to pay the entire cost every Upkeep phase, it seems to me that most businesses will be locked up more often than not. It would also make larger businesses much harder to keep functioning.

Also, capital attrition ONLY applies the capital you haven't payed for, correct?

EDIT: I'm beginning to think the passage you quoted doesn't apply unless specifically called out in a given activity (such as magic item crafting). Otherwise, you create an infinite wealth generation loop in short order. It would also invalidate the rule that says you can trade capital for other capital on a 3 for 1 basis, or 5 for 1 basis for magic.

The Exchange

I don't think you actually make any checks at all for your business until you start a new period of downtime, then you make the checks for the days you were away (with all appropriate modifiers, as you mention) so it's not that much of a thing to keep track of... unless you're generating a load of capital you can't pay for, but since you make the daily checks one at a time, you should be able to see that as it happens, and switch over to generating gp for the remainder. If I understand it correctly, of course... which isn't certain...

The book actually mentions the 'keeping track of two types of capital' issue (on page 77), but as far as I can tell just suggests that it's easier all round to pay for it when you earn it, rather than keeping track of 'earned but not paid for' and 'usable' capital seperately.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The problem with that, Potts, is that the GP gain is never enough to pay for the capital. You would spend a month saving enough gp to get a handful of capital. At that point, your business is less efficient then you just earning it alone.


Ravingdork wrote:
Otherwise, you create an infinite wealth generation loop in short order. It would also invalidate the rule that says you can trade capital for other capital on a 3 for 1 basis, or 5 for 1 basis for magic.

Think of real life. If you own a succesfull business, and have someone run it for you, whom you pay with the profits you don't do anything for, would that be uncommon? no that is the norm. Businesses are designed to make money.

You however, don't have to pay for all your capital in one go, as you mentioned, you just don't get a benefit from it until you do.

Also it mentions in Ultimate campaign that checks are made for businesses even if you are not there.

Ravingdork wrote:
EDIT: I'm beginning to think the passage you quoted doesn't apply unless specifically called out in a given activity (such as magic item crafting).

If you have a magic store that offers enchanting services from you staff that magic capital (explicitly used for enchanting) can very much so be used to pay for generating more capital, as it is totally applicable.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So what's the time frame on multiplying the capital like that? I can't seem to find it, and I really don't think it's the intent of the designers for me to flip capital instantaneously over and over again.


Ravingdork wrote:
So what's the time frame on multiplying the capital like that? I can't seem to find it, and I really don't think it's the intent of the designers for me to flip capital instantaneously over and over again.

As you are someone I know to rather happily on occasion push the limit on what is allowed regardless of intention. And as someone who has played this game long enough to know that plenty of rules are by raw completely broken and unbalanced in the proper builds, I consider that a moot point.

I'd also like to add that Golarion is a world where enchanters can double the price it cost to make something and that is no problem at all. If they can double money with a couple days work, you should be able to if you created the means for it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Seems to me you are arguing for what you want, rather than what the rules actually seem to say.


Ravingdork wrote:
Seems to me you are arguing for what you want, rather than what the rules actually seem to say.

I could say the same thing for you, if I would be someone to make that kind of judgment based on nothing. As I dosn't use the downtime system in his games outside of AP's that feature them its hardly based on what I want.

You asked for the rules, the rules don't exclude this and are written with a lot of leeway for GM interpretation of what is appropriate and applicable.

And if you still insist on using that fallacy (quote), I'd ask that you actually provide what the "rules actually seem to say" and just take that as the answer to your original post. would save me the trouble of looking up the answer for you ;)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I asked a simple question: Does it work this way?

You're the one who started making interpretive claims about other facets of the downtime rules, and as such it's up to you to back up your own stance, not me.


Ravingdork wrote:
You're the one who started making interpretive claims about other facets of the downtime rules, and as such it's up to you to back up your own stance, not me.

Yes and having already done so it don't see the point of your post. I've already quoted the segment where it is explained why it would work, and when you asked for clarification I did so. If you claim it is not up for interpretation, then show the rules ruling on the issue or if you believe the interpretation is wrong, explain and show why (as I've asked before). A simple 'I don't think its like that' is hardly an explanation.

Ravingdork wrote:
I asked a simple question: Does it work this way?

yes and the awnser Is perhaps not what you wanted or liked but it was the answer given, and up until this point you didn't seem to have a problem with it other then your own skepticism, something that doesn't warrant your respons.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

*cracks knuckles*

Lemme see if I can clear this up.

1) Track capital two ways. Earned and Possessed (or some other word that suits). Earned capital is capital you have potential access to, but haven't actually got. Possessed capital is capital you can actually use to do things.

You do not have to pay for capital as soon as you earn it, but for bookkeeping purposes it will usually make sense to do so.

You can pay for some, none, or all of it, but it is still earned, but not possesses until you pay for it.

2) Downtime earnings from buildings and organisations are checked when you have a downtime day (usually on return to the settlement), and you make your building/organisation's earnings checks for each day you were absent. Remember, you can change the type of capital earned by a building/organisation each day, and even split the bonus up as much as you want.

3) Capital attrition applies to Possessed Capital, not Earned Capital - your building does not earn less capital due to your absence. You have less capital due to your absence.

4) Only downtime activities that explicitly tell you that you can spend capital on them allow you to spend capital on them. So you can spend magic capital on crafting magic items, but not on crafting mundane items.

And now here's the bit where I try (and probably fail) to explain the whys and wherefores of all this:

Most fantasy businesses will not work like a modern business. Think of them like the corner shop, instead: They want to make enough money to get by, pay their bills and taxes, and have enough left over to have a good time once in a while. Therefore, most fantasy businesses will earn gp. They might keep a little store of capital on hand to cover emergencies, but they'll really just want cash.

The ultra-rich (which includes most adventurers, as well as nobility and some of the more successful merchants) are the ones who want capital - they want stores full of iron bars for their weaponsmiths, or hardwood for their shipbuilding business, they want to be able to influence the local rulers into allowing them to build that new shop just South of the palace, they want to know who to talk to about hiring local labour - and to be on good enough terms with them that they can get a good deal. And they want to be on friendly terms with the local temple, the local wizard, that weird alchemist that nobody really likes very much. These are the people who want to use the downtime system to earn capital, because they're trying to expand. But at the end of the day, once your Bardic College is complete, and you have no need to expand it further, you might as well sit pretty on that +80 gp earnings check per day. Pays for itself in a year and a half - 9 months if you actually built it using capital.

Yes, if you're using the capital your buildings and organisations earn to subsidise your adventuring capabilities, their earnings potential will be affected - you're exchanging the option of cash-money for favours, goods, and services from the local community, and while that is a very powerful tool to have at your disposal (crafting magic items at 25% purchase price? Yes, please!), it doesn't line your pockets.

If you are looking to earn money, use your buildings/organisations to earn money. If you have other projects in mind, whether a spy ring, a thieves guild, a local mercenary company, a fancy inn, a temple, a stud farm, or whatever, that's when you want capital. But sitting on capital without a coherent plan in mind for how you're going to spend it is a waste - you'll end up with a resource that you try to find ways to spend, and might get frustrated.

There really should be a Phase 0 to downtime: Planning. Plan what you're going to spend capital on ahead of time. Plan to not earn more than you need.


Chemlak wrote:
Yes, if you're using the capital your buildings and organisations earn to subsidise your adventuring capabilities, their earnings potential will be affected - you're exchanging the option of cash-money for favours, goods, and services from the local community, and while that is a very powerful tool to have at your disposal (crafting magic items at 25% purchase price? Yes, please!), it doesn't line your pockets.

how can you say those things in the same sentence, that could line your pockets very easily.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diekssus wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
Yes, if you're using the capital your buildings and organisations earn to subsidise your adventuring capabilities, their earnings potential will be affected - you're exchanging the option of cash-money for favours, goods, and services from the local community, and while that is a very powerful tool to have at your disposal (crafting magic items at 25% purchase price? Yes, please!), it doesn't line your pockets.
how can you say those things in the same sentence, that could line your pockets very easily.

Quite easy: You can use those things to line your pockets, but they do not directly add gold to your wealth.


Chemlak wrote:
Diekssus wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
Yes, if you're using the capital your buildings and organisations earn to subsidise your adventuring capabilities, their earnings potential will be affected - you're exchanging the option of cash-money for favours, goods, and services from the local community, and while that is a very powerful tool to have at your disposal (crafting magic items at 25% purchase price? Yes, please!), it doesn't line your pockets.
how can you say those things in the same sentence, that could line your pockets very easily.
Quite easy: You can use those things to line your pockets, but they do not directly add gold to your wealth.

I'm rather convinced they can, the question would rather be, why wouldn't it. even if you wouldn't use the idea of using a store to sell magic items, by the rules you'd still be able to sell them as normal loot, meaning that with a 25% production cost, you'd double your input without fail. in cold hard cash. if working for a profit would not be 'instantaneous' enough, nothing could be considered to be lining your pockets directly (except maybe a well timed inheritance). even adventuring is a fulltime job.

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The downtime business rules are pretty much designed to generate a multiplying capital loop, as far as I can tell. Your only real costs (toll booths aside) are a manager per business, which is what you'll want 'cos it stops the business rebelling and leaving you with nothing if you happen to get stuck on an adventure longer than you thought you'd be. Managers also help reduce capital attrition if you've got any saved up when you get back and start making the rolls. But that's pretty much it (apart from maybe the odd event) for upkeep costs.

Remember that you have to run through the downtime phases in order. So, just like the example in the book, you get home after your 28 days adventuring, and your GM announces that you're into downtime, then...

1. Upkeep:
Pay your managers (and anything else which may have croped up - like the Tollbooth's potential 1 Influence per day cost).
Determine capital attrition (so for 28 days you'd lose 4 from each of your Goods, Influence, Labour, and Magic... gp aren't covered though... with a manager this would be just 2 points from each instead).

Note that all this comes out of any 'savings' you had at the point you came back from your adventure - you can't generate 28 days of capital and then pay these costs, you have to run through the phases in order. I imagine that you'd lose paid-for capital before 'earned but not paid for' if you had both types saved up, but that's not really spelled out as far as I can tell. In any case, it seems the best idea is to not have any capital saved up when you leave in the first place... just gp.

Next, if you were away for 30 days or more (and haven't got a manager) you roll to see if you lose the business. Again, since this is all done in order, if you lose the business at this point, you never even get to the capital generating phase... should have invested in a manager!

2. Activity phase:
You choose what downtime stuff you're finishing off or starting.

3. Income phase:
Back to business! This is where your 280 Magic capital comes in. You're right that you lose 4 points (per business if they're seperate businesses) for not being around, but that's not 'attrition' - that was covered in the upkeep phase - it's just a reduction because you weren't around keeping everyone on their toes (or whatever).

4. Event phase:
Is there an event? Fun may follow!

Then you rinse and repeat for the days you're in town (downtime), but once you head of adventuring again, you forget the whole thing until you return.

The key thing is having a manager (per seperate business), so you either need to leave them a bunch of money to make sure they're paid, or set up a business that generates at least their wages in gp per day. That's actually pretty easy, since a manager can come as cheap as 2gp per day. It gets a lot more expensive if you have seperate businesses (in essence, each seperate business can generate you an extra 1gp per day from having it's own roll to generate gp, but since each manager costs at least 2gp per day you're always losing out - the only way round that is to never leave town for more than 30 days to avoid the chance of losing the business, and never leave any unspent capital for attrition to eat away at).

Of course, the GM may also decide to do some of this stuff whilst you're away, particularly events and things, especially if there's a way for your staff 'back home' to communicate with you, or you're all willing to play staff members for a mini event-based side adventure or soemthing. That's why, I imagine, it'll sometimes be better to spring for one of the more expensive managers: they tend more towards heroic classes (Cleric Vs Commoner) and have the sort of skills which may be needed in an emergency... although, depending on how friendly your GM is, you can swing Clerics and Fighters for 2gp a day, and they're all 3rd level no matter what so... may not make that much difference in the end.

But yes, you can (in theory, with the right investment) generate large amounts of capital quickly - as long as you have the gp to convert it into usable/paid for capital then it's great, otherwise, it's kind of pointless. GP is the big limiting factor - you need money to make... well, any sort of capital really. GP accumulating businesses are easy but, as you point out RD, they're ultimately the lowest payoff capital type (even without Feats and the like the same roll that generates 1gp can generate 1 Magic, which is 'worth' 50gp if you can match that investment to pay for it). I imagine that's by design, to stop this stuff getting too out of hand... and to give you some motivation to still go out robbing tombs or stealing from dragons or whatever, even if it is now with an eye towards keeping the engine of commerce ticking over...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks Chemlak. Helpful as always. I just finished rereading the rules for the nth time, and I think I have a much better grasp of it now. I now know that my interpretation in the OP is correct.

Earning Capital: ... It is easier to keep track of your earned capital if you pay for it as soon as you earn it; otherwise, you also need to track earned capital you don't yet have (because you haven't paid gp for it yet).

I do have some more questions though.

Chemlak wrote:
2) Downtime earnings from buildings and organisations are checked when you have a downtime day (usually on return to the settlement), and you make your building/organisation's earnings checks for each day you were absent. Remember, you can change the type of capital earned by a building/organisation each day, and even split the bonus up as much as you want.

When splitting the bonuses, am I now making multiple checks, one for each type of capital? If so, isn't that a sneaky way of earning extra capital (since every time you roll, you're adding 1d20, or 10 if you take 10)?

Chemlak wrote:
3) Capital attrition applies to Possessed Capital, not Earned Capital - your building does not earn less capital due to your absence. You have less capital due to your absence.

Do you have a rule source to back that up? The way I'm reading it, it sure seems like the reverse is true.

Chemlak wrote:
4) Only downtime activities that explicitly tell you that you can spend capital on them allow you to spend capital on them. So you can spend magic capital on crafting magic items, but not on crafting mundane items.

However, if I am making a magical sword, isn't the sword included in the magical cost, and can thereby be covered by magic capital? After all, I would most likely need choice materials to get the arcane energies to flow properly or some such abstract thing.

The Exchange

Ravingdork wrote:
When splitting the bonuses, am I now making multiple checks, one for each type of capital? If so, isn't that a sneaky way of earning extra capital (since every time you roll, you're adding 1d20, or 10 if you take 10)?

It looks like you can make 1 roll for each capital type the business generates per business per day, splitting the bonuses provided by the individual elements (room 'a' to Magic, room 'b' to gp, for example), so kind of a sneaky extra 1d20, but not that much in the grand scheme of things, and no point if you don't need that capital type for anything.

As for making money churning out magic items and selling them for half their listed value, that's an old discussion and I'd suggest that if you start doing that the GM would probably say that the downtime rules you're using supercede the normal 'sell anything no matter what' rules: the basic core book rules for selling stuff are to make everyone's lives uncomplicated. If you start to try to use them as a business model then that's something else...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Potts: Capital attrition is where you lose capital every 7 days (or 14 with a manager).

Business attrition is where you risk losing the entire business.

Managers help with the former, but does nothing for the latter. What is needed to avoid business attrition is staying in contact with your employees. And yes, you can send your manager in your stead, but it stands to reason that you have to be able to contact him to do so!


Ravingdork wrote:
When splitting the bonuses, am I now making multiple checks, one for each type of capital? If so, isn't that a sneaky way of earning extra capital (since every time you roll, you're adding 1d20, or 10 if you take 10)?

Yes, However attrition affects each form of capital seprate, so it would affect you more

Ravingdork wrote:
Do you have a rule source to back that up? The way I'm reading it, it sure seems like the reverse is true.

from ultimate campaign :For every 7 days you

were away from the settlement (whether downtime days
or normal days), reduce your Goods, Inf luence, Labor, and
Magic by 1 each (minimum 0). This decrease represents
spoilage, theft, allies moving on or having higher priorities,
workers finding other employment, and so on.

Ravingdork wrote:
However, if I am making a magical sword, isn't the sword included in the magical cost, and can thereby be covered by magic capital? After all, I would most likely need choice materials to get the arcane energies to flow properly or some such abstract thing.

No the sword would be considerd the 'goods' capital


ProfPotts wrote:
As for making money churning out magic items and selling them for half their listed value, that's an old discussion and I'd suggest that if you start doing that the GM would probably say that the downtime rules you're using supercede the normal 'sell anything no matter what' rules: the basic core book rules for selling stuff are to make everyone's lives uncomplicated. If you start to try to use them as a business model then that's something else...

True enough, problem with that is that with downtime rules they, at least trie to, merge those two together. and the point is that if you have an enchanting shop, what else are you going to make your money with?

The Exchange

Ravingdork wrote:

Potts: Capital attrition is where you lose capital every 7 days (or 14 with a manager).

Business attrition is where you risk losing the entire business.

Managers help with the former, but do nothing for the latter.

They completely prevent the latter, as they count as 'having contact' with the business, resetting the '30 day countdown timer of doom' to zero each day. It's on page 82 of the book...

Ultimate Campaign wrote:
... Having contact with the business requires visiting it personally, sending a qualified representative on your behalf (such as a cohort or manager, see page 88), or sending a formal letter or magical communication (such as a dream, sending, or whispering wind); doing so resets your number of days to 0.

... That's why managers are vital: who cares about capital attrition anyway? Spend all that stuff before you go!

The Exchange

Diekssus wrote:
ProfPotts wrote:
As for making money churning out magic items and selling them for half their listed value, that's an old discussion and I'd suggest that if you start doing that the GM would probably say that the downtime rules you're using supercede the normal 'sell anything no matter what' rules: the basic core book rules for selling stuff are to make everyone's lives uncomplicated. If you start to try to use them as a business model then that's something else...
True enough, problem with that is that with downtime rules they, at least tried, merged those two together. and the point is that if you have an enchanting shop, what else are you going to make your money with?

Yeah, it's all abstracted of course, but I always think something like an enchanting shop may sell a magic sword once in a blue moon, but the value to you for that is spread out so that you don't need seperate rules for any different business. So a magic sword emporium may sell one magic sword in five years, but overall that equates to the same 1gp per day (or whatever) you're getting out of your tavern down the road... Magic shops probably work on comissions and advanced fees and stuff a lot, I'd guess... rules-wise, it's not important.

Of course, if you churn out magic killer longbows and issue them to the hundred and one 'elite archers' units you recruited, you could just be looking at the start of a Tarrasque hunt instead... ;)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Like your other employees, a manager won't know you're alive--much less how he should continue running your business--if you can't/don't keep in regular communication with him in some way.


ProfPotts wrote:

Yeah, it's all abstracted of course, but I always think something like an enchanting shop may sell a magic sword once in a blue moon, but the value to you for that is spread out so that you don't need seperate rules for any different business. So a magic sword emporium may sell one magic sword in five years, but overall that equates to the same 1gp per day (or whatever) you're getting out of your tavern down the road... Magic shops probably work on comissions and advanced fees and stuff a lot, I'd guess... rules-wise, it's not important.

Of course, if you churn out magic killer longbows and issue them to the hundred and one 'elite archers' units you recruited, you could just be looking at the start of a Tarrasque hunt instead... ;)

haha indeed. however you should remember that there are plenty or area's in the world where magic items are on constant demand. In the land of the linnorn kings you'd be selling dragon bane weapons a lot more, or holy weapons in the world wound. And considering most Adventure paths take place over a smaller period then 5 years I'd say that you can count on about 1 million gold from a random adventuring party on some epic quest, lot of magical swords for that!

edit: also you'd think that if merchants in town are willing to buy infinite amounts of your magical thingies you find in dungeons, there has to be a market for that right? otherwise magical gear would be used to pave the streets at that rate.

The Exchange

Ravingdork wrote:
Like your other employees, a manager won't know you're alive--much less how he should continue running your business--if you can't/don't keep in regular communication with him in some way.

It's specifically what they're for...

Page 88 wrote:

...A manager is a competent employee qualified to run a business while you're gone, even for weeks or months at a time. A manager is authorized to make certain decisions about your property while you're away, such as paying tax collectors, banning cultists from your store, and handling emergency situations.

Having a manager delays capital attrition (Upkeep phase step 3) from 1 every 7 days to 1 every 14 days. As long as the manager's pay is up to date, having a manager look after your business prevents business attrition...

... bolds by me for emphasis, of course. The only problem could be if something weird GM-wise crops up 'back home' and the manager has to make a decision (GM decides that the town goes kosher all of a sudden - do you want to keep running a pig farm?) but if they can't contact you they make the best choice they can - that's what you pay them for.


Ravingdork wrote:
Like your other employees, a manager won't know you're alive--much less how he should continue running your business--if you can't/don't keep in regular communication with him in some way.

frankly that wouldn't matter would it, if you hire someone to look after your store and he's allowed to take payment from that profit you earn. He's earning a wage for the job he's been hired to do, why would he need communication unless its an emergency. that's how its described in UC anyway

The Exchange

I've a sneaking suspicion that the more expensive manager types are in there to control things like excess Magic capital creation. Unless you can swing a Warden by convincing your GM that your Magic factory is a prison churning out wands instead of number plates (or whatever) a 'magic' business is likely to end up needing an Abbot or Master Smith or something to run it. That's 4gp per day required to break even. Also remember that you lose 7gp per week you're away (no type of 'attrition' - the business just earns less) and you only roll to gain stuff every 5 days out of 7. So your Magic business really needs to be generating 5 and a bit gp per day to break even before you even think about generating any Magic... Unless you risk not having a manager, or run the thing at a gp loss and just leave part of your vast adventurer wealth with your factor to pay the guy's wages whilst you're away... That means you're looking at needing about a +50 gp check bonus on your business before you put any rooms towards Magic generation...

... But the nature of the beast is that anything beyond that is essentially just free stuff - once you've invested the basics, time is on your side.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

Thanks Chemlak. Helpful as always. I just finished rereading the rules for the nth time, and I think I have a much better grasp of it now. I now know that my interpretation in the OP is correct.

Earning Capital: ... It is easier to keep track of your earned capital if you pay for it as soon as you earn it; otherwise, you also need to track earned capital you don't yet have (because you haven't paid gp for it yet).

I do have some more questions though.

Always happy to help. I like the downtime and kingdom rules a lot, so I spent an age wrapping my head around them, what they mean, and what they're for. I'm probably not up to the level of the author (whoever that was), but I can usually fathom the intent and work back to the rules from there.

Quote:
Chemlak wrote:
2) Downtime earnings from buildings and organisations are checked when you have a downtime day (usually on return to the settlement), and you make your building/organisation's earnings checks for each day you were absent. Remember, you can change the type of capital earned by a building/organisation each day, and even split the bonus up as much as you want.
When splitting the bonuses, am I now making multiple checks, one for each type of capital? If so, isn't that a sneaky way of earning extra capital (since every time you roll, you're adding 1d20, or 10 if you take 10)?

Yes, and yes. However you're increasing your costs (you still have to pay for the extra earned capital), and you're splitting your earning focus: at the end of the day, an extra gp here or there doesn't break the game, but an extra magic capital can mean the difference between starting a new building now and having to wait while you rescue the princess.

Quote:
Chemlak wrote:
3) Capital attrition applies to Possessed Capital, not Earned Capital - your building does not earn less capital due to your absence. You have less capital due to your absence.
Do you have a rule source to back that up? The way I'm reading it, it sure seems like the reverse is true.

What Diekssus said.

Quote:
Chemlak wrote:
4) Only downtime activities that explicitly tell you that you can spend capital on them allow you to spend capital on them. So you can spend magic capital on crafting magic items, but not on crafting mundane items.
However, if I am making a magical sword, isn't the sword included in the magical cost, and can thereby be covered by magic capital? After all, I would most likely need choice materials to get the arcane energies to flow properly or some such abstract thing.

That's between you and the GM, really, but the magic item crafting rules for making a magic sword require you to have a masterwork sword to work on: crafting a +1 sword takes 2 days, 1,000 gp and a masterwork sword. The 1,000 gp is the bit you can spend magic capital on. I wouldn't let my players spend magic capital on the 315 gp for the masterwork longsword. But I could be persuaded to let them use goods capital. And the downside to using magic capital rather than just paying the full 1,000 gp is that unless you've racked up 100 magic capital (or can somehow source a +990 magic capital bonus to earn 100 in one day) it's going to take a lot longer to earn the capital than it is to plonk down the cash for the item crafting. Adventuring has its advantages.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Regarding the managers discussion: I think managers are one of the least-well-implemented parts of the downtime rules. There is no consistent pricing for them, and how they interact with businesses and organisations is a bit of a mish-mash. They're one of the few parts of the rules where I'm inclined to give players the benefit of the doubt on working the system, with one tiny rule addition: a manager acts in good faith as long as he has already been paid. Pay him in advance. Fail to pay him and you will suffer effects as if he wasn't there.


Chemlak wrote:
with one tiny rule addition: a manager acts in good faith as long as he has already been paid. Pay him in advance. Fail to pay him and you will suffer effects as if he wasn't there.

not really an addition, as that's pretty much how they are written up. The only exception was a manager who also happens to be a cohort or follower. He'd also still demand to be paid, but he'd be loyal enough to still do as you ask.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What did Diekssus say to support your view on capital attrition, Chemlak? I only saw him parroting rules that didn't really answer my question. Both sets of capital are "yours," you just can't really use one. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me to have goods and other capital in my possession and care to "get stolen" or "spoil." It makes absolute sense to me for the capital left in my businesses warehouse to degrade because I'm not there to better maintain things.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Keeping my distinction between "earned capital" and "possessed capital", wherein earned capital is waiting for you to pay for it before it becomes possessed, Step 3 of the Income Phase only makes sense if it applies to possessed capital:

Quote:
Step 3—Determine Capital Attrition: For every 7 days you were away from the settlement (whether downtime days or normal days), reduce your Goods, Influence, Labor, and Magic by 1 each (minimum 0). This decrease represents spoilage, theft, allies moving on or having higher priorities, workers finding other employment, and so on.

Note that this is not "per building or organisation". It applies to your capital. Further, since you have not made a capital earnings check for your buildings/organisation for at least the last 7 days to even be using this step of the phase, there is a fair chance that your buildings/organisations do not have any earned-but-not-possessed capital sitting on them (if you paid for it all last time, to simplify your bookkeeping). There is only your possessed capital. Against which you assess Capital Attrition before you determine what capital your buildings/organisations earned in your absence, since that's Income Phase Step 1. Those earnings are reduced for extended absence, yes, but this is not Capital Attrition.

Shadow Lodge

Pointless, since WBL fairies (socialist fey responsible for the redistribution of wealth) keep you at WBL regardless.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Huh? Aren't both earned capital and possessed capital "your" capital? After all, it's your business(es) generating all of it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Fair question, and this is why I've actually been clearly differentiating between earned capital and possessed capital.

Earned capital is capital in potentia. You have not paid for it, and therefore you do not have it. It's the treasure you can see under the dragon in the dragon's hoard: it's yours, if you take the necessary steps to obtain it. With the dragon's hoard, you need to defeat the dragon. With capital, you have to pay for it. No amount of rules, penalties, or anything short of GM fiat can take it away from you, because you do not have it yet. The instant you pay for it, though, it goes into the pile of possessed capital, and can be subject to capital attrition. The business absence rule strikes earned capital by reducing the amount you earn, not by removing capital already earned.

Possessed capital is capital you can do things with, as defined in the downtime rules. You can spend it to craft magic items, build buildings, recruit organisations, get bonuses to checks. It is yours, and how you choose to spend it is up to you. Capital attrition strikes this pot.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But if you have it, how are thieves and the like effecting it?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You "own" it, but it's not really something you take with you.

Goods is material, it's wood, and metal, and bolts of cloth, and crafted items like planks, swords, dresses. It might be sitting in your home, or it might be that you know a guy who can get you what you need for the right price. The abstraction of the rules is that you pay in advance to have it available to you when you want to use it. Capital attrition is people stealing it, other people buying it because you weren't there and the guy you know needed to make a quick buck.

Labour are people you can hire. It might be you hiring them directly by standing in the village square and offering money, or you might have enough clout to just put a poster up in the local tavern and people will come to do the work you offer, or you might know a guy who has some friends who'll be happy to help you out if you pay them. Like goods, the abstraction of the rules is that you pay in advance to have access to them when you want to. Capital attrition is other people hiring them while your gone, for good terms, on long-term contract, or that guy you know dying, so his friends won't be able to help this week because they're at a funeral.

Influence is your ability to persuade people to let you do things. It's greasing the mayor's aide's palm because you know he's the guy you need to persuade to let you build your mansion in town, it's working with the captain of the town guard to create your small personal bodyguard that they won't object to. Same rules abstraction. Capital attrition is the people in town believing that you're not invested in their settlement, because you go off adventuring, or the captain hearing a rumour that you're trying for a coup, so he's less willing to be persuaded.

Magic is spellcasters and magic items that you can hire or borrow. You know a priest who can consecrate your temple. You know a guy who's an amateur alchemist who can help you with magical reagents for your crafting project. Capital attrition is the same as the others: as time goes by, the opportunity to use the goodwill and potential services you've accrued diminishes. Something happens that reduces your ability to leverage assets you've previously taken the time to acquire. It might be theft, death, rumours, someone moving away. The point is that it's something that you have no control over because you weren't there to prevent it.

The Exchange

I'd be very careful if you're ruling that non-paid-for capital can't suffer attrition, as it pretty much instantly makes capital attrition a non-issue (just never pay for any of it until you need it).

It also doesn't make much logical sense. I understand the 'you can't lose what you don't have' concept, but with non-paid-for capital you do have something: the potential to buy that capital. It's abstracted, of course, but if you (for example) spend a day working to earn Goods, but don't pay for them, are the people who 'owe' you those Goods really likely to still cough them up twenty years later (or whatever)? Even more so with more ephemeral capital like Influence. In other words: you make a check to create the opportunity to spend gp on capital, but opportunities don't hang around waiting forever.

Using the 'dragon's horde' analogy: you may not possess the horde until you make the effort to claim it, but there's no reason to believe it'll still be around to claim if you don't make the effort in a reasonable time frame.

That's why it's best to always pay for capital when you earn it: keeps it all nice and simple. If you are willing to let players track paid for and non-paid-for capital then I'd suggest the paid for capital suffers attrition first, but that the non-paid-for follows after that ('cos the other way round you'd still be getting a benefit from being a cheapskate and not paying for capital).

Just my 2cp, of course.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Fair point.

I shall consider the matter more and get back.


I need a little clarification. Are we talking about a building that offers +10 to magic capital checks or generates 10 magic capital per turn?

The cheapest way I can quickly think of to generate magical capital a rate of 10 per day is a rather cheesy alchemy lab + 10 classrooms (costing about 3000gp). This building adds 90 to your capital roll, guaranteeing 10 magic capital per day. I only ask because magic capital is only generated by a small subset of rooms and being able to generate at this rate is rather unusual. Granted, you might be running a large magical academy, but most rooms generate zero magic capital.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Couldn't have put it better myself, ProffPotts. EDIT: Should have finished reading your post. I still don't think possessed capital suffers from attrition.

Corvino, in my example above, the business is earning 10 units of magic capital per day of active business.


The highly abstracted nature of the downtime rules make it hard to apply 'common sense' to how they operate. I understand why they are so abstracted, and I understand why they designed it to not interfere too much with 'Uptime', but I think there are some ways of handling it that do make more sense, and are not a lot more work.

The first problem is how you are describing the first day back in settlement. The 'Step 1 for Days 1-28', then 'Step 2 for days 1-28', etc. This system completely negates capital attrition, and really doesn't flow. The business operates while your gone, so your presence or not really should not have a fundamental impact on it's performance. I process it as 'Step 1 for Day 1', then 'Step 2 for Day 1', and so on for each day you were gone.

Then there are events. You presence should not have an impact on whether the rats infest your bakery, or the burglars attempt to raid your stores. I feel events should be able to occur whether you are there or not. This is where a good manager comes in handy, as he'd be able to react to the event with his own skill checks, or even combat. This is why I like to have the manager fleshed out completely. Then at least decent stat blocks for each major employee type you've got hired. It can be a nice diversion after your 12th level trek through a deep dungeon, to come back and have the players take over your 3rd level manager and 2-3 1st level laborers as you attempt to 'resolve' the rat problem in the cellar. This occurred while you were gone, but as you don't have a direct connection between your and your businesses, and downtime events have no effect on you while you are gone, there is no problem resolving the events on 1st day back for the time you were gone.

With a little more attention, Downtime can turn into a much more fleshed out system, provide great content, and be more than just 'that passive income we roll for after each adventure'.


Sorry for questioning you, RavingDork. You've specialised/optimized the hell out of this building in order to create that much magic capital per day. You deserve to accumulate this much capital this quickly!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The good Professor has swayed me.

I am still firmly of the opinion that possessed capital can suffer from attrition, for the simple fact that the rules tend to assume you pay for earned capital immediately, in which case there is no difference between earned and possessed, or, more precisely, earned capital exists for such a short period of time that references in the rules to capital refer to possessed capital.

Because we are examining the case where earned capital is not immediately paid for, we are stepping (slightly) outside the scope of the rule assumptions and have to account for that. The minimal impact scenario (that which causes the least deviation from the rules) is that any capital (earned or possessed) with your name on it can be affected by capital attrition.

As for whether to have attrition impact earned capital or possessed capital first: expect table variance. Personally, I would let the player choose each day where the attrition hits.

I have a small treatise on post-absence capital gains that I'll post in a little while.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In many ways I'm with CraziFuzzy, but the rules are pretty clear: in the Upkeep phase, you calculate capital attrition as one lump and deduct it. In the Income phase your building/organisation earnings over the absence period are rolled, one after the other, for the absent days, reduced as appropriate, and added to your earned capital.

Day 1 covers all of the prior absent days in this way, and those days do not go through full downtime turns, so you will roll a single event for day 1, even if you've been absent for 60 days.

Whilst I generally agree that events should continue regardless of your presence in the settlement (side note: capital is tied to a particular settlement, not just the character), to keep it abstracted these events are covered by capital attrition, business attrition and reduced building/organisation earnings. You only need to worry about events which occur while you can do something about them: those which happen on Downtime Days.


Quote:
For convenience, the GM may increment the chance of having an event and roll for events only when you are in the settlement, as dealing with events while you are away for long periods creates extra bookkeeping.

This is really the crux of the rules. The entire system is very loose and dependent on GM decision making, with most of it erring with whatever is 'easiest'.

The rules also refer to a 'Downtime Day' quite often. This refers to a day you have in the settlement with no other campaign commitments. This goes back to my comment on the design criteria for the system being to not impact 'Uptime' (adventuring).

My point was that those two design criteria are the very basic version of a downtime system. Expanding them so that a 'Downtime Day' is in reference to the Activity Phase only makes perfect sense to me, as everything else is completely independent of player action, and occurs on every 'Business Day'. Making the downtime system 'easiest' is done so that this does not become the main focus of the game - personally, I feel that this should be able to become a main focus of the game, just like kingdom building can. I contend that you could run an entire campaign based strictly off of the downtime rules, and the triggers the events provide - but only if you change the 'downtime' system into a 'fulltime' system.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chemlak wrote:
I am still firmly of the opinion that possessed capital can suffer from attrition, for the simple fact that the rules tend to assume you pay for earned capital immediately, in which case there is no difference between earned and possessed, or, more precisely, earned capital exists for such a short period of time that references in the rules to capital refer to possessed capital.

Except the rules don't assume that at all, they merely recommend that as a means of easier bookkeeping. Big difference that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, okay, yes, there's a difference, but for that difference to matter there would need to be an unambiguous rule explicitly dealing with a reduction in capital earned but not yet paid for.

You can't spend capital you've earned but not yet paid for. Half of this discussion has been about the ambiguity in capital attrition affecting capital you've earned but not yet paid for. The rules even make a distinction between capital you possess and capital you have earned but not yet paid for:

Quote:
earned capital you don't yet have (because you haven't paid gp for it yet).

Emphasis mine.

I don't want to get into parsing the language, but I consider that to be a pretty clear statement that earned capital that is not possessed capital is capital you don't yet have. Which is why I'm solid on possessed capital being subject to capital attrition, because how can "capital you now have" (to invert the negatives in the quote) not be "your capital"?

1 to 50 of 57 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Earning capital with the downtime rules; Am I understanding this correctly? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.