Goblin Squad Member
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First, Ryan Dancey had stated that this is alpha and there will be some improvements in the graphics.
Second, although this may be the first PC based game for Goblin Works / Paizo, it is not for its lead developer or other devs. Lee Hammock was Lead Designer of Fallen Earth, which was actually a pretty decent MMO and still playable even today.
I too had my concerns over the graphics, but I first saw them through Twitch TV and that was before Ryan's assurances that these are not the final graphics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Google UO, EQ, WoW or GW beta footage and they're all way more simplistic than PFO, and they're all from the late 90's and mid 2000's. Also recall PFO is in alpha and not beta yet.
If you then google pathfinder art, you will see PFO is similarly stylized to it.
Each to their own though I guess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's a 2-page visuals thread with multiple dev comments still on the first page. No reason to start a new thread, nor for us to engage a new thread. If this poster is sincerely interested in contributing positively to the community there are better ways for him to do it; if not, don't feed the trolls.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was kinda ok with the tech demo being what it was, but watching this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKaA2gqINTshas me worried that this game is going to fail.
It's not about looking visually stunning, its about not looking like total crap with graphics, models, and animations look so stiff and lifeless.
First, I want to address your concerns with a simple statement: It's Alpha. The same comments have been said all around the forum here and elswhere: the graphics will improve after they finish making things functional. Especially animations, which admittedly are very clunky, making it feel "stiff" and rough around the edges by far. But these sorts of things are easier to add later in the development period.
As it is, the game has come a long way from it's original iteration two-ish years ago. See Ryan's post here. A lot of the same things you are talking about have been addressed in that thread.
It looks like a late 90s or early 2000s game, not something to come out of 2014.
Please keep in mind that this game isn't even scheduled to release until Q1 2016. If it's come this far in 2 years, then I'm really excited to see what this will look like in the next 2 years!
I know this is your first foray into video games, but clearly an MMO needs to either look and feel really good or be purposely stylized. This looks like neither.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, you should have started simpler, maybe turn an adventure path into a single player rpg experience, get your foot in the door, then once you were cemented into the world of video games, do an MMO. Jumping into the ocean head first without knowing how to swim will be the death of goblinworks.
Before coming to these conclusions, I would definitely search around to see what sort of experience Ryan Dancey (CEO) has under his belt. And Lisa, too. Not to mention, they have the entire arsenal of Paizo and Pathfinder behind them. It's a really good setup. And keep in mind, these guys are not trying to make the next AAA-game overnight. This will take years, and they of course are not trying to be the next "WoW-clone" or "WoW-killer". Those are unreasonable expectations, and these are very reasonable people.
(also before you ask why I funded it if I don't like it, Its because I wanted that super dungeon, but since I funded it, I want it to succeed.)
Honestly, if I had not wanted to see this game succeed, I would not have invested over $1000 into it. Or have convinced all my friends to join me, spending around $1700 into this game in total.
Ultimately, what I'm saying here is three simple things:
- Thank you for your concerns, and bringing your voice to the forums to let the dev team hear them. The more feedback, the better, of course.
- Many of these same concerns have been addressed on the forums already (particularly in that thread that I linked). I would encourage looking through it real fast! :)
- The game is far, far from finished. This is the risk of letting people into their game in such an early part of development. All the recent MMO releases these days have been releasing their "Alpha" and "Beta" at the very latest stages of the development cycles of their games - and it's really at that point just a stress test and a huge publicity stunt. And oh, maybe a little bit of bug squishing.
Goblinworks is doing things differently - and I, for one, appreciate the openness they are giving to the community.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Comparing the visuals at this point to the visuals of WoW is like comparing the plot synopsis on the back of a paperback to the Wheel of Time.
Of course it isn't going to be as detailed; not. Early as much time has gone into the detail. Look at the concept art and high-poly art releases, not the streams or in game pictures.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I figure posts like these will become more common as we get closer to EE and possibly up to OE. People watching clips from Youtube or Twitch. They will come to the PFO forum and create a quick thread on how the graphics 'suck' without checking to see if the subject has been covered. Both by newcomers and backers that haven't been following the crowdforging.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Meh, game mechanics matter more now. Everyone has played "The Theampark" and now it's just a competition to make the newest shiniest one for people to throw money at.
Basic Graphics + Awesome Mechanics = Largest Audience
People aren't used to seeing alpha footage. Most of the times alpha's are behind very closed doors, and the only visual releases are high quality renderings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pathfinder Online is modeled after EVE. It's meant to start small and build an audience over time as opposed to most MMOs that start big and then slowly decline.
I'm sure I'm not the only person who remembers this.
Don't get me wrong. I fully believe PFO will need it's own Trinity expansion if it is ultimately to succeed, but for the moment they need to be focusing on the meat and potatoes (Mechanics and content) of this game instead of visual fluff. As long as character customization doesn't suck so bad I can't create an avatar I'll identify with then I'll be happy in the visual department for now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want to see polished graphics why are you judging early alpha video? I am so impressed by what such a small group have achieved in ~2 years. Given that OE is at least 1.5 years down the track maybe it would be prudent to come back then.
I personally have played more than half a dozen MMO's that have nice polished graphics (to varying degrees) but what I am craving is a game that has game play that isn't a McWorld of Warcraft clone. This is the attraction to PfO and at this point in development it's more about tuning mechanics than producing awesome visuals.
It's worth stating that a game in this state would almost never be seen by the public, let alone be encouraged to be broadcast on twitch.tv and YouTube.
Anyhow, that's my 2 cents.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't even care to respond to the OP. What I want to say is directed at anyone and everyone even remotely involved with the development of Pathfinder Online, even though they probably already know this:
There are many gamers out here in the real world who care more about the gameplay than the graphics; gamers who will gladly open their wallets to support your efforts as soon as the game gets to a stage of development they find acceptable. Do not worry about the graphics until much, much later.
If you build it, they will come.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lplJnBRMCa8 <= TESO alpha footage. 200 M $ budget.
PFO, what, 2 M $ ?
If what you mean is that PFO won't have 500 000 subscribers, you are absolutely right, but it was never the objective. EvE started with 25K, 50k after one year, 100k after three years, 550k today, after 11 years.
PFO would be a HUGE success, if they get enough money to pay the servers and the employees to continue to work on the game. The CEO has always said that his goal is to create a game on the long run, not to get a short lived success.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If what you mean is that PFO won't have 500 000 subscribers, you are absolutely right, but it was never the objective. EvE started with 25K, 50k after one year, 100k after three years, 550k today, after 11 years.
PFO would be a HUGE success, if they get enough money to pay the servers and the employees to continue to work on the game. The CEO has always said that his goal is to create a game on the long run, not to get a short lived success.
PFO has what, 5 - 10K subscribers now?
Out of that 25, 50, 100 many are duplicate accounts, 1 person playing multiple accounts. (I had 3 at one time, a friend that still plays has 3 as well.)
PFO won't have that (thank god)
Eve had good graphics for the time at release (ok, spaceships on a black background are a LOT easier then characters in multiple settings)
Ok, so its alpha and the games being rushed on a shoestring budget.
None of that negates the op's comments or concerns.
GW needs to bring more people into the game, people who are willing to die a lot and lose everything when they do. They shouldn't have to suffer through crap graphics at the same time which means AT SOME POINT the graphics have to get better.
Quick bit of history here - Back in Vanilla wow I was part of a horde task force comprised of multiple guilds that tried to raid stormwind, the main alliance castle city. We had about 150 people, someone tipped off the alliance so they all rushed to the stormwind to defend and between the two sides we managed to crash the entire world server 5-6 times becasue of too many people on the zone and frame rates wre 1-2 seconds per frame, before the developers basically told us we were not allowed to raid stormwind (at this point in the game the alliance could raid two of the hordes cities with ease, horde could raid none of the alliance) and if we kept trying all of the horde guilds involved would be permabanned from the game.
Now, with that story in mind, I'm looking a year, two years down the road.
Settlement A finally gets fed up with settlement B poaching there monster spawns, stealing the crafting nodes and decides its time to go over and wtfpwn settlement B.
You log in and there are 500 people on your screen trying to wipe your settlement off the map (more then we had in the story above) and then you have your npc's, guards, shopkeeps, etc.
I'd kind of like them to do some sort of tech demo with the proposed graphics level to prove we won't all need $50,000 computers with a $25,000 dedicated sub-zero cooling system so we can overclock the 6 video cards enough to actually run the game at more the 5 frames a second and that the server won't crash if we do.
I'd prefer they do it now, rather then a year from now when they try to implement settlement wars and the server crashes OR the clients crash every time someone tries to do one.
Maybe they need to actually simplify the graphics and go more cartoony rather then more detailed with multiple colors, textured, etc. (YES you can do better cartoony graphics)
Note - before anyone brings up eve's mega battles please engage your brain and think about the simplicity of Eve's ship models, many of which have little relative motion or are small enough they can be rendered as non-detailed blips on the screen, compared to a human figure with arms that move, legs that move, and a blank space background vs. buildings, grass, tree's etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is the blog from Februari,where Ryan talks about how much they spent so far. Less then 2 million
They currently have 20 people working on the game, including Ryan and Lisa. That is a pretty good record so far.
I am curious at what point the game will start making some money from selling game-time. Most backers have game-time included in their pledges (nad maybe bought more as addons) so it looks like it will be a few months before gametime will start to add to the + balancesheet.
Hopefully GW will find ways to sell more EE packages and addons soon, I am thinking Steam and so was Ryan: Steam Greenlight
When people put up with Rust in the thousands (if not tens of thousands) then imo PFO has a bright future. I think the biggest hurdle will be the fact that you have to buy game-time(XP)also in EE(if you do not have any from pledges), however it looks like a single month of gametime (15 dollars) gets you seriously on your way already (level 4-8 when concentrating on a single role?)
Looks like a great try-out for that amount.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...the simplicity of Eve's ship models, many of which have little relative motion or are small enough they can be rendered as non-detailed blips on the screen...
They might reduce the render if you pan out, but did you even pan in to see the details? Every ship is rendered in minute detail, and turrets turning, gears grinding, cannon flare from every shot, and missile launchers blowing debris with every launch. There is a huge amount of detail there. One of my favorite pastimes was loitering outside the station at Dodixie trading hub and zooming in on the fights (there were at least a half dozen at any one time) and watching the intricate details.
It makes sense they would diminish the detail as you panned out, but you could pan in and see the detail. Very similar to the discussion we are having in a separate thread about tree density in the forests of the River Kingdoms.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(brainstorming here with insufficient data and amateur outlook; not so much from a funding perspective but from a "do we have enough players-perspective)
(TL;DR: Barrier of entry for Rust is low, barrier of entry for PFO seems too high to fill up EE sufficiently.)
19.99 dollars for Rust is a low barrier of entry. I think PFO is heading for tough times in those first months of EE.
Barrier of entry is still high because of the high price of the EE package, yet membership needs to ramp up quickly, into the several thousands.
I think if you offered this game from the very start of EE on Steam for 20 dollars that would include a month of gametime, you would see a HUGE surge. You could still throttle the inflow, would probably create some buzz too with people waiting to join. However that would cause a lot of angry backers. So a no go.
But I think you will have a hard time getting the numbers that you want for EE, with the current offerings and prices on the GW store.
A schedule:
- First month of EE: the 100 dollar KS backers: 4500-5000 people including buddy and guildaccounts(not all will come);
- Second Month of EE: the 100 dollar Goblinworks store backers: no idea, not many I am guessing.
- Third Month still for the 100 dollar folks.
- Fourth month of EE: the 35 Dollar KS backers: 2800 peeps(not all will come)
- Fifth month of EE: the 35 dollar Goblinworks Store backers. No idea how many those are.
- Sixth Month of EE: Steam Early Release 20 dollars including a month of gametime. Control the inflow.
Even with this schedule you would still have to wait 5 months before you can truly lower your barrier of entry and seriously get more players. Untill that time you will have to rely on already sold pledges and selling more packages from the GW store.
I think the 100 dollar EE package is too expensive, and the 35 dollar packages have to wait too long. And are still a little steep. 19,99 dollar sounds a lot better on Steam, 35 dollars is more of a "release" price.
(I realize that people are willing to spend 100-150 dollars for an "alpha" but these are usually pretty slick Betas from mulitmillion dollar triple AAA Themepark MMO's like ArchAge (actually already released, Trion), EQNext Landmark, TESO and Wildstar.)I am quoting you here off course. :)
Maybe if you would advertize that a single month of game-time will get a character that focusses on a single role to level 8, that people will be willing to spend 35 dollars on Steam: but I think most people that buy into Steam Early Releases would rather spend a "demo-price" of 10-20 dollars tops.
Again, this is more from a membership perspective then from a funding perspective since I have no clue for how long the funding is secured.
Btw, I am not worried at all about the graphics. I played Dust. :) I think people on Steam would gobble this game up for 20 dollars. I am sure you will get a lot of churn initially, but that is ok. People would still have 1 month worth of game time. I keep checking back on games constantly too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tyncale,
Everyone in the KS prior to hitting 1 million was told they would be in month 1. If they include everyone who backed and intends to play, about 16k or less and that is on the high end.
Then should not think of months of staggering but weeks. 5000 per week for the first month.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As someone that has actually played the game, I can say that I am happy with the current graphical fidelity of the game. The texture resolutions are higher than I was expecting, and mesh work on most assets is decent enough. There are a few things that I hope get improved (mostly character model assets), but all in all I could see myself playing the game and not constantly wishing that it looked better.
The gameplay that the developers have stated they intend to include doesn't support AAA level graphics. This is good enough for now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wish ppl could communicate more effectively. I know I struggle most times when I post.
The objection is valid, the criticism is not. What counts is if enough ppl don't object and understand the real criticism.
To me, that is how successful at formulating an online community where graphics are one component eg net hack still goes "strong".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan doesn't want a huge surge. He wants a small, stable community that grows at a pace fast enough to make money but slow enough not to outgrow its culture. He's in this for the long haul, not a first month peak.
I figure he's probably smart enough to drop the EE fees if he's not getting enough activity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tyncale,
The whole point of this system is controlled growth. The people that GW wants in early are the people that can afford it. Ryan said it a few times a while ago, their target audience is people who can afford to shell out more than your average subscription. They need people early on that give them more income per player than most games get.
We do not need a bunch of bargain hunters flooding the game for 3 weeks, then leaving a heap of useless hardware sucking up funds.
Rust is not an MMO. MMO's require a lot more work and money. You can't compare costs.
I doubt steam would even sell this game for EE. For one it will have no ESRB, and second I have never heard of a limited release game selling on Steam. Maybe when OE comes around, and the gates are completely open.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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PFO has what, 5 - 10K subscribers now?
Out of that 25, 50, 100 many are duplicate accounts, 1 person playing multiple accounts. (I had 3 at one time, a friend that still plays has 3 as well.)
PFO won't have that (thank god)
It will. Multiple accounts = multiple payed characters, no difference.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Guurzak and Valkenr. Guys, I know about the controlled growth, that is why I said that they could and should throttle the influx.
I think there's nothing wrong with "a bunch of bargainhunters", they are just gamers like us. I am a bargainhunter myself! I do not think us hardcore followers are some special kind of snowflake, they will drop the game almost as easily as a bargain hunter. And a good chance the first will be more vocal about falling out with the game. I do not think "controlled growth" as a PR angle is a strong enough incentive to take that 100-dollar hurdle for most. The concept should definately stay but the price should go down I think.
1200 people showing up to vote for the landrush, of about 6000+ Kickstarter EE backers (including buddy and Guild) is an indication that as of yet they are not crowding at the door to get in. And these people payed already.
I am just a little worried that it will be tough to fill up EE sufficiently with the current 100 dollar entry-barrier. I do not see that change much, even with viral marketing and lots of cool youtube-vids. A Low Entry Steamdeal could change that.
Just needs some smart planning as to when and how, to not anger the backers (as a triple EE account owner myself I would not mind letting them in sooner rather then later).
And I know Ryan is on top of this so we agree on that.
I am just a little worried that it will be tough to fill up EE sufficiently with the current 100 dollar entry-barrier.
The fact that we have to pay a monthly fee during EE is not insignificant, either. For that same fee gamers have their choice of any and every finished product on the market. I understand that gameplay > graphics, but the gameplay is not there yet either. Vision and potential are basically what you are buying for that 100 + monthly, right now.
I'd personally feel a lot better about the price point if the monthly fee were less than all the other games out there, even at like $10/mo. This is a "minimum viable product" after all. For $15/mo I have my choice of polished, established brands.|
Goblin Squad Member
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For $15/mo you have your choice of polished, established brands, but there's nothing you can do which will leave a mark on that polish. I think the attraction of the sandbox will, for a significant number of players, outweigh the polish of the theme parks.
There being no level cap also makes a difference. Starting early means you'll always have more training under your belt than anyone who comes later. Yeah, the power curve isn't steep, etc, but the oldvets will have a notoriety and credibility that goes far beyond their combat effectiveness.
And if it turns out that's not enough to draw people in at the desired rate, GW has plenty of options for addressing that.
@Tyncale
- Fifth month of EE: the 35 dollar Goblinworks Store backers. No idea how many those are.
- Sixth Month of EE: Steam Early Release 20 dollars including a month of gametime. Control the inflow.
Unless it was changed, the 35$ dollar Goblinworks Store backers do not get Early Enrollment, they get Open Enrollment (eta January 2016).
This means you would have to charge at least 50$ for Steam Early Release and offer the option for the 35$ store backers to upgrade their memberships.
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@Tyncale
- Fifth month of EE: the 35 dollar Goblinworks Store backers. No idea how many those are.
- Sixth Month of EE: Steam Early Release 20 dollars including a month of gametime. Control the inflow.
Unless it was changed, the 35$ dollar Goblinworks Store backers do not get Early Enrollment, they get Open Enrollment (eta January 2016).
This means you would have to charge at least 50$ for Steam Early Release and offer the option for the 35$ store backers to upgrade their memberships.
I think the idea here is that during Alpha, and EE they will be giving out "beta" passes to other subscribers to join in and start playing EE along with the others in order to gradually increase server load.
Meaning even 100$ GW store buyers may get an invite into alpha or EE/beyond etc.
@Tyncale
- Fifth month of EE: the 35 dollar Goblinworks Store backers. No idea how many those are.
- Sixth Month of EE: Steam Early Release 20 dollars including a month of gametime. Control the inflow.
Unless it was changed, the 35$ dollar Goblinworks Store backers do not get Early Enrollment, they get Open Enrollment (eta January 2016).
This means you would have to charge at least 50$ for Steam Early Release and offer the option for the 35$ store backers to upgrade their memberships.
I think the idea here is that during Alpha, and EE they will be giving out "beta" passes to other subscribers to join in and start playing EE along with the others in order to gradually increase server load.
Meaning even 100$ GW store buyers may get an invite into alpha or EE/beyond etc.
Thank you for the information.
My above point was that you can not charge 20$ on Steam and give them EE when the 35$ store bakers don't even get EE by default.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're comparing games that are 14+ years old (uo, eq) to a modern day "next gen mmo"Google UO, EQ, WoW or GW beta footage and they're all way more simplistic than PFO, and they're all from the late 90's and mid 2000's. Also recall PFO is in alpha and not beta yet.
If you then google pathfinder art, you will see PFO is similarly stylized to it.
Each to their own though I guess.
Yes, yes I was...and so was the OP
It looks like a late 90s or early 2000s game, not something to come out of 2014. I know this is your first foray into video games, but clearly an MMO needs to either look and feel really good or be purposely stylized. This looks like neither.
His main point has been refuted and therefore his premise is incorrect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Carbon D. Metric and Zindarak: you are both right, the schedule I made up was indeed meant to be *fair* to the KS backers, so that once all KS backers got in (also the 35 dollar backers who normally would not be allowed in untill one month before OE), they could start letting Steam-people in for a lower pricepoint.
I think the entry fee is the greatest hurdle. The game-time cost probably less, for the reasons Guurzak states: you keep the merits of the game-time you payed for because of how the game's XP and monetization is set up. So if they would include 1 month of gametime in that 20-dollar Steam deal, people could already get a serious taste of the game for that money: I believe up to level 8 or some in a single role?
When people decide the game is too barebone still, they can drop it for now, knowing they can come back later and still have that XP they already paid for. And if they like it, they will most likely pay for another month without much hesitation.
Do not forget that KS backers, also the 35 dollar backers, have at least 2 months of gametime included. So there's still a nice boon for the backers, even when Steam-folk start joining them one month later.
Edit: I feel a bit bad about bumping this thread, because of its negative title: I personally think the graphics are fine, and that's just looking at the alpha footage. Probably also a personal taste for style, I really dislike EQnext landmark graphics(the bloom is killing me) and style for instance, can't play it. Shroud of the Avatar and PFO graphical style is right up my alley.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Giorgio, I think it is a bit too early for that and may be a bit controversial now. Ryan was actually the one that sort off opened my eyes to the whole Steam thing about 6 months ago by saying that they may consider a Steam Greenlight campaign at some point. So Ryan is on it, and I think if GW wants to do something like that they will probably bring it here to the forums themselves. It's not that they need our permission, but they may want to gauge general feelings about it when the need arises.