How to build Arcane Fighter? (PFS)


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Liberty's Edge

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Hello all,

I've got two somewhat different concepts for an arcane melee character but I don't know how to build them or optimize to not be underpowered.

PFS - Gnome Eldritch Knight:

Requirements -
1) Gnome
2) Effortless Trickery - maintain concentration on 1 illusion as swift action.
3) Threatening Illusion metamagic feat - 5ft space in illusion threatens and provides flank.
4) Eldritch Knight

Aasimar Edlritch Knight:

Requirements -
1) Aasimar
2) Celestial Resistance racial + Unscathed trait = Resistances: 7/cold, 7/acid, 7/electricty. Later picking up Angelic Flesh: Brazen feat to also get 7/fire.
3) Angel Blood feat + Angel Wings feat = creating a Michael the archangel type of character.
4) Eldritch Knight

Anyone that is good at building these types of character I'd greatly appreciate the assistance and feedback. I'm wondering how do-able either of these are and how powerful or underpowered they'd turn out to be.


There are so many feats and books I don't have now.

I guess I could look up Threatening Illusion on d20PFSRD, but I'm too lazy this morning.

But if that feat works as the name implies, ie you could place a threatening illusion wherever you wanted on the battlefield..

Depending on whether you have a lot of melees in the party, particularly rogues, it just seems like you could imact things a lot more with the gnome.


Threatening illusion is shit. Compared to summoning a flanking buddy, this
*Allows an automatic save when cast
*Costs a feat
*Costs an extra spell level
*costs your swift action every time you want to move it
*Allows an additional save to disbelieve once it's terrible AC has been hit, if not before
*Can not actually attack


Sohei Monk 1/Empyreal (Celestial) sorcerer 1/Eldritch Knight X.

Wis for casting, wis to AC, protection from surprise, light armor proficiency, go!

Liberty's Edge

Wait a second, Sohei is debatable whether they retain their monk benefits when wearing light armor due to the wording. I'd rather be safe than sorry since this is PFS. Is there something that would work as an Aasimar Eldritch Knight that wouldn't be banned at half the pfs tables?

Edit: So the Gnome illusion thing is a no go unless I had an insane will save with the illusion I take it. It would be really neat. I was picturing some type of Swordsage of sorts where mirror image and sword fighting took place and trickery. Sort of like that illusion melee class in Guild Wars 2.


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PLay a magus?

Dark Archive

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Be a Magus.

Or Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple

Or Ranger/Wiz/EK/Hellknight Signifier


For PFS i Think the Magus is far better. It Will hurt your utility spells but you Will be a better arcane warrior, by far.

Liberty's Edge

I think the utility is what I'm wanting to keep though.


I haven't found a good use for Eldritch Knight yet. I agree with the chorus about Magus. That makes a lot more sense than Eldritch Knight. You can take the Wand Wielder Arcana and shoot people from the front lines. You can be a Tiefling and pull out just the wand you need as a swift action.

Another option to consider is Alchemist. You can be a fighter and or monk that juices up on chemical cocktails.

In principle, when I make melee characters, I think first about melee effects I want to achieve, then I think about what classes I take to achieve them, maybe alchemist, maybe magus, maybe arcane archer.


ELdritch Knight really comes into its own with the capstone, and the eventual 9th level casting and near full BAB.

In PFS, you can just barely reach that capstone and the BAB difference is at most somewhere around 2-3 compared to the magus. That said, if you want a versatile arcane-style character (Maguses are really focused on melee combat, unless you take a specific archetype) Eldritch Knight is still great, and probably better than the Magus.

Sczarni

A Sohei can flurry in light armor, but does not keep his monk AC bonus:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9rag


This can be fairly simple to do. It's very feat-intensive, but at the end of the day, should be viable. There are a couple routes you can take; both end up dumping Strength to favor Dexterity, but simply because there are methods to remove the need for Strength to Attack and Damage Rolls.

In either case, you will want to be an Elf, as it gives +2 Dexterity and +2 Intelligence at the cost of -2 Constitution. You could try Ratfolk for the -2 Strength, but that comes to being Small-sized, which, while better defensively, hurts your base ability to deal damage for the early game and makes you slower too.

From there, the progression needed will amount to Fighter 1/Wizard 9/Eldritch Knight 10. (You're welcome to toy with the Evangelist PRC, going Fighter 1/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 1/Evangelist 10, but you lose on capstones and such for other abilities.) You can mess around with this as necessary, increasing your BAB at the cost of reduced endgame spellcasting, but that's the minimum. You'll end up having a BAB total of ~15 (so 3/4 BAB) with the ability to cast as a level 18 Wizard (you can take a character trait to make your CL be 20). There are also spells that will allow you to have a BAB equal to your hit dice, though you lose your ability to cast.

As for your fighting style, there are two paths; one is fairly limited, but if you can work your way around it, becomes a fairly simple investment. The other is more free, though it ends up costing Base Price Bonus slots for your weapon.

The first route is to try the Dervish Dance feat, allowing you to apply Dexterity to Attack and Damage rolls with your Scimitar (or RAW, anything available that you can attack with attacks), and has a high Critical Hit chance ratio, syncing very well with the EK capstone. This becomes invalid if you break the requirement of needing a free hand and must be wielding a Scimitar (and if the Scimitar is not sized for you). This invalidates the ability to simply use wands or metamagic rods, so be careful with this choice.

The second route is to simply take Weapon Finesse and use a Finessable weapon to make attacks. The Agile weapon property allows you to use your Dexterity to Damage as well, though it doesn't scale for two-handing. A route viable once you can get some decent magic items, but isn't really workable until that point. As with the above, using a Scimitar or other high-critical weapon is optimal, given your EK capstone, which should be available by character level 16.


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Quote:
Fighter 1/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 1/Evangelist 10

why would you EVER do that. You actually downgrade your BAB. You also don't lose any more caster levels than if you use it to advance the wizard (which is actually an upgrade in BAB).

Once you max eldritch knight, you have 3 choices:Hellknight Signifier (if you value caster levels), Arcane Archer if you value BAB, and Evangelist if you want to advance Wizard features along with caster levels.


LoneKnave wrote:
ELdritch Knight really comes into its own with the capstone, and the eventual 9th level casting and near full BAB.

Its also partially duplicated by a 12th level Magus Arcana (Critical Strike). Magus can retain most the the utility by taking Spell Blending a couple times, or simply purchasing spell trigger items. High BAB is somewhat offset by being able to make your weapon perfectly optimized no matter what the encounter. Most eldritch knight builds listed here would not get 9th level spells until well into the 20's.

Regarding the Eldritch Knight capstone. It is great because it boosts action economy. You are able to make a melee attack, and if you score a critical hit, you get to cast a spell. Pretty amazing to get to cast a spell AND attack in the same round... A magus can do that at level 1.


Critical strike arcana is really inferior. Like, massively so. For a 1/day it probably isn't even worth the arcana.

Custom weapons aren't that important when you can have a bound weapon that you can customize at half price anyway. Somewhat good point though.

You can get 9th level spells with a 2 level delay. That's not too terrible, but it is pretty late (but you can also get 7th and 8th level casting so you are still ahead before that). Although, when you think about it, you are only 1 level behind the sorc, so...

PS.: Spellcombat is good, but Spellstrike is the real king, which you can actually duplicate.

Liberty's Edge

Not sure I totally follow here. Even though Melee/Wildshape Druids and Eldritch Knight (or Magus) are two different things like apples and oranges. Which would be a better as a frontline fighter. Wondering since both get an arsenal of spells to fall back on while still being able to get into the middle of fights.

the conversation above flew over my head somewhat. Essentially what it seemed like is that Magus is just the better option compared to Eldritch Knight.

Max level I'm looking at lvl 11, 12th level my character retires. I saw dervish dance but not sure I want to restrict myself to scimitar but it is an option. Since this is PFS, if I went Eldritch Knight I would never get to complete all 10 levels. I liked the Wizard option for the bonded item for spell versatility and the wide range of spells to choose from, Magus I don't believe gets either of those.


For an 'arcane fighter' type, the best character I'd recommend is the Aasimar (Azata) Dervish of Dawn. We had two of them run in our Wrath of the Righteous campaign and not only are they devastating in combat, they were a LOT of fun to play due to their versatility both in and out of combat. If that interests you at all, drop me a line and I'd be happy to show you the basics of the character build.

Liberty's Edge

What is a Dervish of Dawn and is it even PFS legal? I can't find it on Nethys.


Kyoko Hitomu wrote:
What is a Dervish of Dawn and is it even PFS legal? I can't find it on Nethys.

Sorry - its official name is Dawnflower Dervish. It can be found here.

Basically you get double effect Inspire Courage except it only works on you... and as an Azata using its Favored Class Bonus, you accelerate the rate at which you progress in that ability, meaning you get Inspire Courage +3 (actually +6) by eighth level. You get Dervish Dance for free and you also get the benefits of feats like Arcane Strike, spells like Dance of a Hundred Cuts, the ability to cast Cure spells as a move action as well as the usual array of Bardic skills.


Soul Forger magus gets a bonded weapon. Tradeoff is reduced spell count.


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dawnflower dervish is the actual name--pfsrd had to say dervish of dawn to avoid copyrights once paizo decided to crack down (makes tracking down stuff a lot more annoying, and makes religion-specific feats nigh impossible to use--pfsrd doesn't list the deities they're locked to since paizo could sue).

personal advice:

aasimar [spellcasting class] 1/[full BAB class] 1/EK 10/hellknight signfier 8

bab 17 (0|1|1/1/1 / 1/1/1/1/1 / 1/1|0/1/1 / 1/0/1/1/1)
9th-level spells (effective level 17)

for the full BAB-class i'd say:
-urban barbarian (if your GM says you can cast during controlled rage),
-ranger (whatever archetype you want, preferably one that trades favored enemy for something more flexible)
-sword saint samurai (particularly order of the staff for the challenge bonus to spellslinging after you smack them--a free katana is also nice)
-lore warden or dawnflower dervish fighter
-while not full BAB, magus is worth mentioning

caster can be anything you want (i'd say arcanist if you're allowed to use playtest stuff).


AndIMustMask wrote:

dawnflower dervish is the actual name--pfsrd had to say dervish of dawn to avoid copyrights once paizo decided to crack down (makes tracking down stuff a lot more annoying, and makes religion-specific feats nigh impossible to use--pfsrd doesn't list the deities they're locked to since paizo could sue).

personal advice:

aasimar [spellcasting class] 1/[full BAB class] 1/EK 10/hellknight signfier 8

bab 17 (0|1|1/1/1 / 1/1/1/1/1 / 1/1|0/1/1 / 1/0/1/1/1)
9th-level spells (effective level 17)

for the full BAB-class i'd say:
-urban barbarian (if your GM says you can cast during controlled rage),
-ranger (whatever archetype you want, preferably one that trades favored enemy for something more flexible)
-sword saint samurai (particularly order of the staff for the challenge bonus to spellslinging after you smack them--a free katana is also nice)
-lore warden or dawnflower dervish fighter
-while not full BAB, magus is worth mentioning

caster can be anything you want (i'd say arcanist if you're allowed to use playtest stuff).

Keep in mind the OP likely won't see this character get any play past 11th level, so he has to watch it with potentially late-blooming builds. Play at levels 1-4 need to be just as effective and fun as they are 10-12.

Liberty's Edge

Wiggz wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

dawnflower dervish is the actual name--pfsrd had to say dervish of dawn to avoid copyrights once paizo decided to crack down (makes tracking down stuff a lot more annoying, and makes religion-specific feats nigh impossible to use--pfsrd doesn't list the deities they're locked to since paizo could sue).

personal advice:

aasimar [spellcasting class] 1/[full BAB class] 1/EK 10/hellknight signfier 8

bab 17 (0|1|1/1/1 / 1/1/1/1/1 / 1/1|0/1/1 / 1/0/1/1/1)
9th-level spells (effective level 17)

for the full BAB-class i'd say:
-urban barbarian (if your GM says you can cast during controlled rage),
-ranger (whatever archetype you want, preferably one that trades favored enemy for something more flexible)
-sword saint samurai (particularly order of the staff for the challenge bonus to spellslinging after you smack them--a free katana is also nice)
-lore warden or dawnflower dervish fighter
-while not full BAB, magus is worth mentioning

caster can be anything you want (i'd say arcanist if you're allowed to use playtest stuff).

Keep in mind the OP likely won't see this character get any play past 11th level, so he has to watch it with potentially late-blooming builds. Play at levels 1-4 need to be just as effective and fun as they are 10-12.

What Wiggz said. Build needs to be somewhat decent in first couple of levels and the highest level this character will see is lvl 11. So Dawnflower Dervish would give me access to bard spells while being a decent melee combatant. How would my survivability look near the front line compared to an Heavy Armor melee/caster or a combat druid?


Magus spell recall helps simulate some of this flexibility, and blending gives a wider spell choice. It does have a slower progression.

The choice depends on what you see yourself doing. If you just want the flexibility spells give you, magus gives you fewer choices. But the synergy between spells and combat is hard to simulate outside of the Magus' spell combat/spellstrike. Remember, Eldritch knight on its own does not give you the ability to cast spells in armor. The arcane armor feats can let you do so, but require a swift action every round (so no arcane strike that round, e.g.) and 3rd level caster.

If you do plan to wear armor, be cautious about dumping STR too much due to carrying capacity (only matters in some campaigns). Also remember Dervish Dance begins at 3rd level (~1/5 of your total career will be without it).


Kyoko Hitomu wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

dawnflower dervish is the actual name--pfsrd had to say dervish of dawn to avoid copyrights once paizo decided to crack down (makes tracking down stuff a lot more annoying, and makes religion-specific feats nigh impossible to use--pfsrd doesn't list the deities they're locked to since paizo could sue).

personal advice:

aasimar [spellcasting class] 1/[full BAB class] 1/EK 10/hellknight signfier 8

bab 17 (0|1|1/1/1 / 1/1/1/1/1 / 1/1|0/1/1 / 1/0/1/1/1)
9th-level spells (effective level 17)

for the full BAB-class i'd say:
-urban barbarian (if your GM says you can cast during controlled rage),
-ranger (whatever archetype you want, preferably one that trades favored enemy for something more flexible)
-sword saint samurai (particularly order of the staff for the challenge bonus to spellslinging after you smack them--a free katana is also nice)
-lore warden or dawnflower dervish fighter
-while not full BAB, magus is worth mentioning

caster can be anything you want (i'd say arcanist if you're allowed to use playtest stuff).

Keep in mind the OP likely won't see this character get any play past 11th level, so he has to watch it with potentially late-blooming builds. Play at levels 1-4 need to be just as effective and fun as they are 10-12.
What Wiggz said. Build needs to be somewhat decent in first couple of levels and the highest level this character will see is lvl 11. So Dawnflower Dervish would give me access to bard spells while being a decent melee combatant. How would my survivability look near the front line compared to an Heavy Armor melee/caster or a combat druid?

We had a Paladin in the group that we played in, and from that experience it strikes me that the Dervish is best used as a secondary melee fighter rather than the tank. Versatility and the ability to deal damage would be your forte, not necessarily withstanding the kind of punishment other martials can take.

Having said that, you'll be a high Dexterity character with excellent mobility and initiative and starting at 8th level you'll be able to cast Cure spells as a move option which can be exceedingly valuable.


?

i'm not sure what you mean by a late-blooming build--the caster/fullbab/EK10 class plays like a sorcerer (i.e. one level behind a wizard's progression) on the caster side and like a full bab class (full bab -1) on the other side until after 12th level which is irrelevant as you said.

even a simple wizard/fighter/EK will still have lots of ways to apply themselves even from the beginning--just go for staple spells and carry on as normal. you might not have the fancy class features of other folks, but you've got a solid base regardless.

Liberty's Edge

AndIMustMask wrote:

?

i'm not sure what you mean by a late-blooming build--the caster/fullbab/EK10 class plays like a sorcerer (i.e. one level behind a wizard's progression) on the caster side and like a full bab class (full bab -1) on the other side until after 12th level which is irrelevant as you said.

even a simple wizard/fighter/EK will still have lots of ways to apply themselves even from the beginning--just go for staple spells and carry on as normal. you might not have the fancy class features of other folks, but you've got a solid base regardless.

How do you go into EK at level 2? I understand that I need 1 level of wizard and 1 level of fighter at least but not sure how I fulfill the 3rd level spell requirement to go into EK at 3rd level?


AndIMustMask wrote:

?

i'm not sure what you mean by a late-blooming build--the caster/fullbab/EK10 class plays like a sorcerer (i.e. one level behind a wizard's progression) on the caster side and like a full bab class (full bab -1) on the other side until after 12th level which is irrelevant as you said.

even a simple wizard/fighter/EK will still have lots of ways to apply themselves even from the beginning--just go for staple spells and carry on as normal. you might not have the fancy class features of other folks, but you've got a solid base regardless.

How Can you be only one level behind the wizard? And Does playes like a sorcerer meen that he should go for spontanious casting?


Kyoko Hitomu wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

?

i'm not sure what you mean by a late-blooming build--the caster/fullbab/EK10 class plays like a sorcerer (i.e. one level behind a wizard's progression) on the caster side and like a full bab class (full bab -1) on the other side until after 12th level which is irrelevant as you said.

even a simple wizard/fighter/EK will still have lots of ways to apply themselves even from the beginning--just go for staple spells and carry on as normal. you might not have the fancy class features of other folks, but you've got a solid base regardless.

How do you go into EK at level 2? I understand that I need 1 level of wizard and 1 level of fighter at least but not sure how I fulfill the 3rd level spell requirement to go into EK at 3rd level?

Aasimars and Tieflings allow a backdoor entry for such prestige classes due to their inherent racial SLA ability - a legal rule interpretation that I am in vehement disagreement with.


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I was just looking at Eldritch Knight, and while I still recommend being a Magus, I do have advice on how to build an Eldritch Knight.

The Prereqs for Eldritch Knight are the ability to use all Martial Weapons and the ability to cast level 3 arcane spells.

It has been FAQed that spell-like abilities count as the ability to cast spells for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes.

Aasimar have the spell like ability Daylight, a level 3 arcane spell.

Start out as an Aasimar Fighter at level 1. At level 2, take a level in Wizard. Then just take levels in Eldritch Knight. You'll get all the Wizard Spells + a Fighter's BAB -1. By the time you are level 12, you will be like an 10th level Wizard with a BAB of +11. That's my recommendation for Eldritch Knight, anyway.

You will still suffer Arcane Spell Failure if you wear armor. My preferred solution is to wear Darkleaf Cloth Lamellar Leather Armor or Darkleaf Cloth Hide Armor, and take Arcane Armor Training. Between the 2, your ASF = 0%. This solution is somewhat unpopular with contributors on these forums because the AAT feat requires a Swift Action to activate, so no Quickened Spells among other things. Mithril Kikko armor with give you +1 AC compared with the other options I mentioned, but costs more than 3000gp extra.

I iterate and stress, however, that I just don't think a class-based approach to building a powerful melee fighter is the thing. I think the thing you should do is dream up the awesome combination of feats, weapons, and special abilities that make you smile, THEN pick the classes you need to get it done.


Wiggz wrote:
Kyoko Hitomu wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

?

i'm not sure what you mean by a late-blooming build--the caster/fullbab/EK10 class plays like a sorcerer (i.e. one level behind a wizard's progression) on the caster side and like a full bab class (full bab -1) on the other side until after 12th level which is irrelevant as you said.

even a simple wizard/fighter/EK will still have lots of ways to apply themselves even from the beginning--just go for staple spells and carry on as normal. you might not have the fancy class features of other folks, but you've got a solid base regardless.

How do you go into EK at level 2? I understand that I need 1 level of wizard and 1 level of fighter at least but not sure how I fulfill the 3rd level spell requirement to go into EK at 3rd level?
Aasimars and Tieflings allow a backdoor entry for such prestige classes due to their inherent racial SLA ability - a legal rule interpretation that I am in vehement disagreement with.

He ask how you Can start EK at level 2. I dont Think that is possible without getting Martial weapon prof from race and that is not for PC races.


Technically... Magus 1+ Aasimar does it.

Liberty's Edge

What I had envisioned is a wizard/fighter gish that has decent AC and to-hit/dmg (maybe not excellent, but decent). Using spells like Mirror Image, Blur, or other arcane buffing spells to make things interesting. Having a wide range of spells to choose from and not being just a nuke bot, which from my understanding a Magus is.


Kyoko Hitomu wrote:
What I had envisioned is a wizard/fighter gish that has decent AC and to-hit/dmg (maybe not excellent, but decent). Using spells like Mirror Image, Blur, or other arcane buffing spells to make things interesting. Having a wide range of spells to choose from and not being just a nuke bot, which from my understanding a Magus is.

Its what a Dervish is, certainly.


Also... if you want look at the ACG, the Bloodrager could be something you might want...

You can reflavor the "Bloodrage" as a sort of Arcane Trance. From what it sounds you would like the Arcane Heritage Bloodrager. When they rage, they get the benefits of things like haste and blur for free.

Liberty's Edge

Is Daylight the only 3rd level spell like ability that meets EK requirements or do any of sub-aasimar races also work? (Emberkin, Plumekith, Musetouched, Lawbringers, Angelkin, or Idyllkin) Wondering if I'd have to go with the vanilla Aasimar or if I could go with one of the other ones.


You could also base it on the diviner wizard, as their first level school power counts as a 3rd level spell SLA iirc.


Kyoko Hitomu wrote:
What I had envisioned is a wizard/fighter gish that has decent AC and to-hit/dmg (maybe not excellent, but decent). Using spells like Mirror Image, Blur, or other arcane buffing spells to make things interesting. Having a wide range of spells to choose from and not being just a nuke bot, which from my understanding a Magus is.

A Magus covers all of the above except, maybe, a 'wide range of spells'. Perhaps if you could indicate what other spells you're interested in, we could help you get there. The Magus spell list is loaded with some of the highest rated spells and Spell Blending allows you to add to that.

When someone says arcane fighter, I can't help but think Magus. It is loads of fun to play.

Liberty's Edge

LoneKnave wrote:
You could also base it on the diviner wizard, as their first level school power counts as a 3rd level spell SLA iirc.

This is true if a bit imprecise.

You can manage the early entry trick with any race if you go Diviner (Scryer Subschool) very specifically for your Wizard level. That gives a 3rd level spell-like ability as well as an initiative bonus. The default Diviner doesn't work.

The Exchange

So, with the SLA trickery you could go Fighter 1/Wizard 1/ElK 9? Ends up with BAB +10, casting as a level 9 Wizard (but CL 11, 'cos of the Magical Knack trait the Amalgamated Union of ElKs makes you take) so 5th level spells (base of 19 spells per day as a specialist wizard), 5 bonus Feats (1 Fighter, 1 Wizard, 3 ElK), and you qualify for Feats as a Fighter or Wizard of your character level -1. Also gets 1st level Wizard school powers.

Magus 11 would have BAB +8, be casting 4th level spells (base of 15 spells per day), 2 bonus Feats (3 counting Medium Armour), and qualifies for Feats as a 5th level Fighter (but only for levels 10 & 11). Also gains 3 Arcana (worth a Feat each), arcane pool, spellstrike, improved spell recall, improved spell combat, & knowledge pool.

So it's the usual differences between the ElK and the Magus: ElK gets more raw power (BAB and spell level), Magus gets more tricks. The problems for the ElK here is that he's still only just reached the level where he's starting to outpace the Magus when he hits 11th. The Magus gets 2nd level spells at 4th, the ElK at 5th, both get 3rd level spells at 7th, then the ElK gets 4th level spells at 9th and the Magus at 10th, and the ElK gets 5th level spells at 11th and the Magus not at all. ElK does better at BAB (beating the Magus at 1st, matching him at 2nd to 4th, then beating him from 5th onwards) but overall is it enough to justify having to spend Feats to cast in armour, and not getting any of the Magus's tricks? Also, PFS eliminates the Wizard's Scribe Scroll Feat, doesn't it? That helps reduce the ElK's advantage of having a wider spell list. Also, the ElK will need to buy all his spells apart from those he starts with, as new spells in the book isn't covered by the ElK's +1 to spellcasting feature. That'd not be a huge problem in standard play, but how are these things worked out in PFS? Equipment and ca$h is done in a strange and unusal way, correct?

I'm a big fan of the ElK, but under the PFS restrictions I'd say the Magus comes out better... so be an Arcane Duelist Bard instead! ;)


Kyoko Hitomu wrote:
Is Daylight the only 3rd level spell like ability that meets EK requirements or do any of sub-aasimar races also work? (Emberkin, Plumekith, Musetouched, Lawbringers, Angelkin, or Idyllkin) Wondering if I'd have to go with the vanilla Aasimar or if I could go with one of the other ones.

Only vanilla Aasimar works for early Eldritch Knight. It's a great way to run the wisdom-based-Sorcerer/Sohei/Eldritch combo. Flurrying with a Temple Sword and whatnot. You can even work Crane Style in there with the EK bonus combat feats if you want to dish out ripostes from behind your Mirror Images, in between two-handed power attack flurries.

If you want a Wizard EK, consider an Elf with the Scryer subschool to get into EK early instead, and wield an Agile Elven Curved Blade. Again, the nearly full BAB with two-handed Power Attack is going to hit nice and hard while your high dexterity makes life better.


Kyoko Hitomu wrote:
What I had envisioned is a wizard/fighter gish that has decent AC and to-hit/dmg (maybe not excellent, but decent). Using spells like Mirror Image, Blur, or other arcane buffing spells to make things interesting. Having a wide range of spells to choose from and not being just a nuke bot, which from my understanding a Magus is.

I'm concerned that as an Eldritch Knight, you will be short on feats, which is what I one usually goes for in a melee character.

That being said, as a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight, you will have a much more diverse spell book than you would have as a Magus, and that normally leads to more flexibility, and flexibility is good.

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that your Eldritch Knight ends up being much less a magically augmented fighter and much more a wizard who can fight in a pinch. That wouldn't be terrible: most parties can use another wizard.

I have an idea. Since shields are problematic due to Arcane Spell Failure, use a big weapon like a Greatsword, a Scizore, or an Earthbreaker. Use Power Attack and cast True Strike. Get Vital Strike feats, and then use the spell Mirror Strike, so you have lots of damage that you can divide between your opponents. That way, you can combine your fighting and spell casting to be an effective melee combatant against 1 target or more than one.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Kyoko Hitomu wrote:
What I had envisioned is a wizard/fighter gish that has decent AC and to-hit/dmg (maybe not excellent, but decent). Using spells like Mirror Image, Blur, or other arcane buffing spells to make things interesting. Having a wide range of spells to choose from and not being just a nuke bot, which from my understanding a Magus is.

I'm concerned that as an Eldritch Knight, you will be short on feats, which is what I one usually goes for in a melee character.

That being said, as a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight, you will have a much more diverse spell book than you would have as a Magus, and that normally leads to more flexibility, and flexibility is good.

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that your Eldritch Knight ends up being much less a magically augmented fighter and much more a wizard who can fight in a pinch. That wouldn't be terrible: most parties can use another wizard.

I have an idea. Since shields are problematic due to Arcane Spell Failure, use a big weapon like a Greatsword, a Scizore, or an Earthbreaker. Use Power Attack and cast True Strike. Get Vital Strike feats, and then use the spell Mirror Strike, so you have lots of damage that you can divide between your opponents. That way, you can combine your fighting and spell casting to be an effective melee combatant against 1 target or more than one.

The best way to play an Arcane Fighter is not to be a Magus ironically enough... If you want to cast spells WHILE fighting, then your best best is to be a magus. The strength of the EK is that you can look at an enemy decided this:

A) If Martial creature, stay back and out caster the creature.

B) If Caster creature, use spells to get in melee and out melee the creature...

Your best way to achieve this is to also get the Dimensional Dervish feat chain... That way you can pop up next to a caster and full attack their face... or you can sit back and drop Black Tentacles on mooks/Martial guys.

Oh! And on a side note: EKs can be deadly if you utilize the Dimensional Dervish feats... I think the best build for a EK would be to:

A) Be a dervish build that focuses on the Critical feats and Dimensional Dervish.

B) Be a polymorph specialiist and pretty much combine the power of spells like Form of the Dragon and such with the power of a full BAB martial. At this point though you would pretty much be playing like a Wildshape focused druid... just with arcane magic vs Divine.

Liberty's Edge

So is Elf or Half-Elf the better choice here? With HE I could get EWP ECB, no penalty to Con, and +8hp with favored class bonus due to Multitalented. Or I could go Elf and get the +2int/dex with -2con, gain ECB since it's martial, and have Elven Magic.

I'm assuming I want Combat Casting feat since I'll be near the frontline. Any particular feats for Elf or Half-Elf that would be really useful? I'm not sure if the +2 to 1 stat is worth the 8hp or not but Elf does give the +2 vs SR.

I like the ECB idea.

Liberty's Edge

Not sure where you are getting the +8 hp from FCB, since you cannot use a PrC for a favored class regardless of race.

Combat casting is kind of a trap. It seems great at 1st level, but very quickly diminishes in value and also only applies to very specific rolls, not to every concentration check.

Your feat selection should be based entirely upon your intended focus... will you be a magically enhanced warrior with some extra options, or a wizard with some fighting skills and extra HP? (This is assuming you are planning to go the Ftr/Wiz/EK route.)

ECB is great but, it needs a feat tax in the form of Weapon Finesse if you plan on being a dex based combatant, and if not then why not just use a No Dachi?

Being an elf is a great choice for a wizard, but the hit to your con on a gish class with limited armor options can be problematic.

I would suggest almost creating the concept of the character in your head, imagining how you would play them or how you would portray them fighting in a story, and then when you have that concept in mind you can decide on the mechanics that best fit your goals. The great thing about the EK PrC is that there are so many different directions you can go.


I don't think Multitalented gets you a favored class bonus for Eldritch Knight because of the rule that prestige classes may NEVER be a favored class. I'd love to be wrong though. Where the Half-Elf spends a feat to get ECB, the Elf could just take Toughness and make up their hp gap if they were so inclined...

*Edit* Or the Half-Elf could take Ancestral Arms. Hmm.

If this is for PFS, you get a Spell Focus feat for free to replace your scribe scroll. This means that you already have the prerequisite for Spell Specialization: +2 caster level to a single spell. Planning to zap things with Scorching Ray a lot? Get extra rays much sooner. Want a +3 weapon by level 10 while spending your money on Keen and Agile? Bump the level of Greater Magic Weapon. Mage Tattoo is also a single feat away, and will grant a +1 to caster level to all spells of one school.

As a note on the whole Magus vs EK thing... I don't think they're quite as far apart in melee as people think. The typical Magus with a scimitar is way behind the damage of a high-bab curved blade power attack until he starts casting spells, and his extra attack (which drops in significance by a ton after Haste and iteratives) is coming at the price of managing spellcasting at point-blank range. One reason I like the Sorcerer/Sohei/EK build with temple sword flurry is that it not only gets as many attacks as a Magus without any special effort, the damage bonuses it gets on every attack put it into the same ballpark as a Magus using Frostbite or Shocking Grasp over the course of a full attack.

Liberty's Edge

Fomsie wrote:
Your feat selection should be based entirely upon your intended focus... will you be a magically enhanced warrior with some extra options, or a wizard with some fighting skills and extra HP? (This is assuming you are planning to go the Ftr/Wiz/EK route.)

Magically enhanced warrior with some extra options. I was thinking of my character looking similar to the Elf King, Thranduil, in the 2nd Hobbit movie with medium/heavy armor if possible. So Elf is probably the way to go with ECB.

I think i'm going to go the Fighter route and not the Sohei since I don't think I want to stay in light armor.

Going to take a stab at a build here -

Elven EK Warrior:

Class –1 Wizard / 1 Fighter / 9 Eldritch Knight
Race – Elf

Traits -
* Armor Expert
* Magical Knack: Wizard

Wizard School -
* Scryer (Divination)

Opposed Schools -
* Enchantment
* Evocation

Stats -
Str: 14
Dex: 15 + 2 = 17
Con: 15 - 2 = 13
Int: 14 + 2 = 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 7

1) Fighter 1: Bab +1, Weapon Finesse (lvl 1), Power Attack (fighter), +1 hp
2) Wizard 1: Bab +1, Spell Focus: Transmutation (wizard), Arcane Bond: Ring
3) Eldritch Knight 1: Bab +2, Nimble Moves (lvl 3), Weapon Focus: ECB (EK)
4) Eldritch Knight 2: Bab +3, +1 Dex, +1hp
5) Eldritch Knight 3: Bab +4, Arcane Armor Training (lvl 5)
6) Eldritch Knight 4: Bab +5,
7) Eldritch Knight 5: Bab +6/+1, Arcane Armor Mastery (lvl 7), Weapon Spec: ECB (EK)
8) Eldritch Knight 6: Bab +7/+2, +1 Con, +1 hp
9) Eldritch Knight 7: Bab +8/+3, Arcane Strike (lvl 9)
10) Eldritch Knight 8: Bab +9/+4
11) Eldritch Knight 9: Bab +10/+5, GWF: ECB (lvl 11), Critical Focus: ECB (EK)

Is the Elven "Elemental Resistance" racial trait better than the "Elven Immunities" racial trait?

Also, should I remove something and add "Breadth of Experience?"

I took Nimble Moves so I can 5ft step in an area where I "Stone Call" whereas enemies must take a move action and lose their full attack. At least that's the idea, not sure how great that'll work out though.

I took Arcane Strike at 9th level. It adds a decent amount of extra damage and I'm either going to be casting a spell or attacking that round, not both and I won't see EK lvl 10 in my PFS career. I figure this gives me versatility to deal more damage or cast a spell easily in some type of Mithril Heavy Armor with only a 5% chance of ASF.

EDIT: Thanks for the info on FCB, didn't know Prestige classes didn't get this.

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