Goblin Squad Member
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I was reading through the stealth thread and considering the merits of buying some Perception when it occurred to me that I have no idea which trainer to seek out if I wanted to do so.
Extrapolating this beyond just this one question, it occurs to me that it would be a handy resource if we could get from the devs or put together ourselves a list of what can be trained from each respective trainer. If the dev team has not provided such a list by the time servers come up in about 5 hours from now, can we get a few volunteers to pick a trainer and report on what all is available?
I'll start by offering to report the Dreadnought Trainer's selection.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was reading through the stealth thread and considering the merits of buying some Perception when it occurred to me that I have no idea which trainer to seek out if I wanted to do so.
Extrapolating this beyond just this one question, it occurs to me that it would be a handy resource if we could get from the devs or put together ourselves a list of what can be trained from each respective trainer. If the dev team has not provided such a list by the time servers come up in about 5 hours from now, can we get a few volunteers to pick a trainer and report on what all is available?
I'll start by offering to report the Dreadnought Trainer's selection.
Truthfully, we need someone to update the existing barren wiki, or take the time to establish and populate their own. But with only a few days of "playtime" each week as Alpha has been (with which, I'm a tad disappointed, btw), who really has the time to sit there and document this sort of thing? I guess numerous screenshots could be taken, and analyzed later.
We could also benefit from knowing the prereq's of each, and the benefits of each. Last week, there was not much information to be obtained through tooltips.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm thinking hand-written notes should suffice if we are meticulous in our reporting. We shouldn't have to support our observations with screenies though it might reduce the writer's cramp.
Then when the weekend is over we can each make a post in a single thread without regard to what others have written just so we can be sure to get it all, then go back over it all in an organized fashion to glean the grain from the chaff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm thinking hand-written notes should suffice if we are meticulous in our reporting. We shouldn't have to support our observations with screenies though it might reduce the writer's cramp.
Then when the weekend is over we can each make a post in a single thread without regard to what others have written just so we can be sure to get it all, then go back over it all in an organized fashion to glean the grain from the chaff.
Mostly I'm thinking of just convenience.
E.g.: Run around and take screenshots of all the trainers' offerings this weekend, and then next week (during "downtime") go through them all and type them out.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Not that I don't want you guys to have the joy of hand-scribing data from windows. But since I can just copy out of the spreadsheets...
The number after the equal sign is the highest level it will train to.
And a little space...
...to get it to wrap nicely around my avatar.
Fighter 2
Axe Specialization=4
Bow Specialization=4
Bravery=2
Dragoon=6
Hammer Specialization=4
Heavy Blade Specialization=4
Light Blade Specialization=4
Polearm Specialization=4
Polearm Specialization=4
Power=8
Ranged Specialization=2
Trophy Charm Implement Proficiency=1
Two-Handed Melee Specialization=2
Unbreakable=6
Master of Opportunity: Suffer=2
Master of Opportunity: Stand Still=2
Master of Opportunity: Stop=2
Master of Opportunity: Slip=2
Master of Opportunity: Stumble=2
Rogue 2
Befuddling Strike=2
Bleeding Attack=2
Chameleon=6
Crippling Strike=2
Cut-Throat=4
Daredevil=4
Opportunist=4
Perception=8
Power=8
Rogue Kit Implement Proficiency=1
Scout=6
Slow reactions=2
Stealth=8
Swashbuckler=6
Wizard 2
Abjurer=4
Binder=6
Conjurer=4
Enchanter=4
Evoker=4
Illusionist=4
Arcana=8
Mage=6
Necromancer=4
Power=16
Scholar=6
Spellbook Implement Proficiency=1
Transmuter=4
Cleric 2
Crusader=6
Charm Domain=4
Fire Domain=4
Glory Domain=4
Holy Symbol Implement Proficiency=1
Luck Domain=4
Religion=8
Power=16
Protection Domain=4
Strength Domain=4
Sun Domain=4
Travel Domain=4
Trickery Domain=4
Water Domain=4
Weather Domain=4
Skirmisher 2
Base Attack Bonus=4
Bow Weapon Proficiency=1
Bullseye Shot=4
Compound=4
Deafening Critical=2
Deception=4
Distant Shot=4
Evasion=1
Feint=2
Footwork=4
Half Draw=4
Hit Points=6
Impact Critical Shot=4
Impaling Shot=4
Light Armor Proficiency=1
Light Blade Weapon Proficiency=1
Light Melee Attack Bonus=4
Lightning Reflexes=2
Parry=4
Patient Anchor=4
Pinpoint Targeting=4
Press=4
Ranged Attack Bonus=4
Rattle=4
Recovery Bonus=4
Reflex Bonus=4
Round=4
Shank=4
Stop Cut=4
Stunning Critical=2
Thrust=4
Tiring Critical=2
Trip=2
Dreadnaught 2
Axe Weapon Proficiency=1
Base Attack Bonus=4
Beat=4
Bull Rush=2
Bulwark=2
Carve=4
Charge=2
Chop=4
Cleave=4
Club Beat=4
Club Conk=4
Club Escape=4
Club Inertia=4
Club Shillelagh=4
Club Shove=4
Club Thump=4
ClubThwack=4
Conk=4
Cross Blow=4
Escape=4
Exhausting Critical=2
False Edge=4
Fortitude Bonus=4
Gore=4
Great Fortitude=2
Hack=4
Hammer Beat=4
Hammer Conk=4
Hammer Escape=4
Hammer Inertia=4
Hammer Shillelagh=4
Hammer Shove=4
Hammer Thump=4
Hammer Thwack=4
Hammer Weapon Proficiency=1
Hamstring=4
Heavy Armor Proficiency=1
Heavy Blade Weapon Proficiency=1
Heavy Melee Attack Bonus=4
Hew=4
Hit Points=8
Hoist=4
Inertia=4
Medium Armor Proficiency=1
Passing Step Thrust=4
Puncture=4
Recovery Bonus=4
Shear=4
Shield Bash=4
Shield Block=4
Shield Slam=4
Shield Weapon Proficiency=1
Shillelagh=4
Shove=4
Sickening Critical=2
Skewer=4
Slash=4
Spike=4
Stab=4
Staggering Critical=2
Swing=4
Thousand Cuts=4
Thump=4
Thwack=4
Toughness=2
Understrike=4
Whirlwind=4
Wind-Up=4
Wrath Guard=4
Wrathful Strike=4
War Wizard 2
Arcane Attack Bonus=4
Arcane Weapon Proficiency=1
Acid Dart=4
Arctic Winds=4
Boiling Blood=4
Bright Rune=4
Clothing Armor Proficiency=1
Deafening Roar=4
Eel's Touch=4
Electric Brand=4
Flare=4
Frost Ray=4
Hellflume=4
Shard Spray=4
Sonic Thrust=4
Windrider=4
Winter's Caress=4
Wyrmling Breath=4
Burning Ray=4
Burning Flume=4
Freezing Ray=4
Freezing Torrent=4
Shocking Ray=4
Shocking Strike=4
Melting Ray=4
Melting Stream=4
Thundering Ray=4
Thundering Torrent=4
Midnight Ray=4
Midnight Strike=4
Mental Ray=4
Mental Strike=4
Invisible Ray=4
Invisible Strike=4
Occultist 2
Arcane Weapon Proficiency=1
Blinding Ray=4
Chill Touch=4
Downburst=4
Electric Brand=4
Frighten=4
Ghostly Grasp=4
Grasping Shadows=4
Nightmarish Foe=4
Remove Energy=4
Shadow Ray=4
Telekinetic Fist=4
Torporous Rune=4
Willpower Bonus=4
Seminary 2
Battle Rage=4
Bleeding Touch=4
Dazing Touch=4
Defending Weapon=4
Destructive Smite=4
Dispelling Touch=4
Divine Attack Bonus=4
Doom=4
Fire Bolt=4
Holy Lance=4
Icicle=4
Liberation=4
Lightning Arc=4
Minor Cure=4
Focus Weapon Proficiency=1
Touch of Darkness=4
Willpower Bonus=4
The skill trainer 2s all train up to 8 in the skills they can train:
Alchemist's Lab: Alchemist, Dowser
Apothecary: Apothecary, Forester
Arcanist Workshop: Sage, Dowser
Armorer: Armorsmith, Engineer
Artificer's Workshop: Artificer, Dowser
Geologist: Gemcutter, Miner, Stonemason
Iconographer: Iconographer, Dowser
Jeweler: Jeweler, Scavenger
Leatherworker: Leatherworker
Library: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nature, Religion
Loom: Weaver, Scavenger
Sawmill: Sawyer, Carpenter, Forester
Smeltmill: Smelter, Miner
Spellcraft: Spellcraft, Dowser
Tailor: Tailor, Scavenger
Tannery: Tanner, Nature
Weaponsmith: Weaponsmith
Woodshop: Bowyer, Carpenter
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, this post of yours deserves a page in the Nihimonicon - immediately across from your thread on Leveling Achievements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Burning Flume sounds just so ... so ... so ..., not sure if it sounds cool or weird or hinky. But it sounds so ...!!! :-)
Are we going to have some sort of "informed" skills tree choice? So if I wanted Burning Flume 4 and Hellflume 4, I could click on them and all the skills/feat needed would light up so I could tell what I needed to purchase?
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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And I'm outside of my editing window now that I just realized that today's build should also be missing the redundant Club/Hammer/Mace feats (the training gives you any variations for all three weapons). I should have updated my files to get Lee's changes before posting :) .
The real list is:
Dreadnaught 2
Axe Weapon Proficiency=1
Base Attack Bonus=4
Beat=4
Bull Rush=2
Bulwark=2
Carve=4
Charge=2
Chop=4
Cleave=4
Conk=4
Cross Blow=4
Escape=4
Exhausting Critical=2
False Edge=4
Fortitude Bonus=4
Gore=4
Great Fortitude=2
Hack=4
Hammer Weapon Proficiency=1
Hamstring=4
Heavy Armor Proficiency=1
Heavy Blade Weapon Proficiency=1
Heavy Melee Attack Bonus=4
Hew=4
Hit Points=8
Hoist=4
Inertia=4
Medium Armor Proficiency=1
Passing Step Thrust=4
Puncture=4
Recovery Bonus=4
Shear=4
Shield Bash=4
Shield Block=4
Shield Slam=4
Shield Weapon Proficiency=1
Shillelagh=4
Shove=4
Sickening Critical=2
Skewer=4
Slash=4
Spike=4
Stab=4
Staggering Critical=2
Swing=4
Thousand Cuts=4
Thump=4
Thwack=4
Toughness=2
Understrike=4
Whirlwind=4
Wind-Up=4
Wrath Guard=4
Wrathful Strike=4
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Goblin Squad Member
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Burning Flume sounds just so ... so ... so ..., not sure if it sounds cool or weird or hinky. But it sounds so ...!!! :-)
Are we going to have some sort of "informed" skills tree choice? So if I wanted Burning Flume 4 and Hellflume 4, I could click on them and all the skills/feat needed would light up so I could tell what I needed to purchase?
Right now if you mouse over it in the Unavailable tab, it will tell you what it's prereqs are in a popup tooltip.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Oops, looks like Lee's changes didn't quite make it in. So the original list I posted for Dreadnaught is correct (don't buy any of the feats with Club, Mace, or Hammer as a prefex; they're redundant and don't actually give you any feats; buy the unprefixed version) and Engineer didn't make it in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I noticed in the summary of the crafts and crafting structures there is no stonecutters shop, so no support for quarries or sculptors. I argue for those structures, as Dwarves are known for their stonework, and many of the "Civic Assets' that will go in the settlements (whatever they will be crowdforged to be called) require stonework. Fountains, graveyards, public baths, aqueducts, paved streets, statuary, fortified entrances and battlements.
How will stonemasonry be implemented. We have not seen anything but the references to "bulk stone" used for generic settlement construction. We Dwarves want to see some support for the stonemasonry craft. It is a large part of the lore of Dwarves and I would like to see an effort to have that skill set detailed. I can see it in the "Geologist" training facility, but what will they do?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some other skills I don't see (but they might be under another category);
Potter
Limner/Painter (this is the guy that will make store signs, road signs, etc; might be superfluous)
Glassblower (under artificer maybe? got beakers, vials, lenses, chemical grenades, mirrors, lighting)
Farmer
Cook (debate on Ideascale on use of food for necessity or buff only; most prefer buff only)
Wainwright (making wagons; maybe introduced at the same time mounts come in perhaps?)
Animal Tamer/Animal Husbander (once mounts, taming, and breeding are introduced, if ever)
Bookbinder, Scribe, Papermaker (who makes the spellbooks and scrolls?)
Entertainer (Musician, Artist, Author...much later, but interesting)
Cartographer/Surveyor
Haberdasher (might be under tailor?)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Errr...and I do not see a Forge. It might be under another structure, but I don't see an obvious fit. I see the smeltmill (not really a Forge), the weaponsmith, armorsmith, and Artificer's Workshop. We Dwarves gotta have us a Forge. It's what we do!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Is there a way to get my Lesser Cure ability back? It disappeared from my bar when I was playing around with what-gear-goes-where, and I removed my ... I think it was my holy symbol ... from the slot. And now it's gone and I have no idea how to get it again.
I did manage to train up to Cleric 2 (thinking that might be an issue), but no luck thus far >.<
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Goblin Squad Member
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We Dwarves want a forge though. A training forge isn't really a forge now, is it? It's like wanting to run a fine inn with an excellent kitchen and someone gives you a campfire. Just not the same. A true forge should be an upgradable structure unto itself with the ability to craft more pieces of metalwork of a higher quality at the same time or having more queues available than a smaller facility. I am hopeful there is a separate structure dedicated to the forge. It would be the centerpiece of our settlement (much like a library would be the centerpiece of a settlement doing arcane research).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say the smelt mill is for refining the base ore and the weaponsmith and armorsmith are for making the appropriate metal gear. Since there is no gear that a normal blacksmith would make that has use in the game just stick the smelt mill, weaponsmith and armorsmith structures all in the same area and call that your Forge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...just stick the smelt mill, weaponsmith and armorsmith structures all in the same area and call that your Forge.
We may have to do just that, but it is not the ideal I had imagined. It is a practical solution though. Right next to the brewery (which I also do not see, making this Dwarf a very sad Dwarf indeed).
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Nope, there's no way to get your starter expendable back if you change implements, unfortunately. Like most of the other prebuild stuff that's on your character, it's created by sheer fakery and probably not saved the way it would have been if you learned it through the normal processes.
Had a conversation with one of the programmers today at PaizoCon about who exactly is responsible for getting learning expendables from your inventory working, and there may be a programmer duel on Monday, followed by me having more visibility on who's having to make it work and therefore how long it will likely be before it works ;) .
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Goblin Squad Member
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OK. So Experts will have 20ish different refining and crafting skills to choose from. Commoners have only 4 gathering skills: Miner, Forester, Scavenger, and Dowser- plus there's the Knowledge skills which improve ability to harvest from relevant nodes.
Paradoxically, the Commoners will be the best educated characters on the map.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Commoners are focused on all the Professions, so they do gathering AND refining. Likely individual Commoners will further focus on one or the other to a large extent, but they're the role that gets access to feats to improve refining. Experts focus on Craft skills, so specialize in the final stages of production.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not that I don't want you guys to have the joy of hand-scribing data from windows. But since I can just copy out of the spreadsheets...
I don't know how I missed this at the time.
Stephen, any chance you could share a portion of the Feats By Trainers spreadsheets with us? I have a feeling what you posted above is pretty out-of-date.