Goblin Squad Member
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This is a crowdforging thread. Please refrain from replying unless giving constructive feedback. For more information on what to post and not to post in a crowdforging thread read this.
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The Mark of Pharasma is the source of our character's Immortality. Pharasma also known as the "Lady of Graves" is the true-neutral god of death, fate, prophecy, and rebirth.
Our characters have somehow been marked by Pharasma causing us to return to life after we die.
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying this raises more questions than it answers though. Why would a true-neutral who has the job of shepherding the deceased to the afterlife grant a group of individuals of all alignments and faiths a mark of immortality. Especially when some of them will be necromancers and Pharasma abhors the undead?
Giving possible answers to some of these questions that haven't already received developer answers as a community may be a fun exercise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are a few possible answers I think might be worth looking at.
A response to a threat. There could be some group or even creature that poses such a great threat that the other god's petitioned Pharasma to create a solution. Our character's could either be chosen by Pharasma to fight the threat, or we could say that the mark was somehow accidentally placed on some individuals it wasn't intended to through some form of mistake.
I tend to favor the latter since some of our characters will have no interest in fighting the threat.
Two cool things to think about with the "threat" story though.
1. We know our characters will not have to worry about "save or die" spells and probably will have either immunity or reduced effect from any kind of mind control ability. Those kind of abilities are powerful enough to merit a response from the god's if any large group of creature's or followers of some group had easy access to them. Making near immortals that can resist "save or die" and mind control effects may be merited to deal with the threat.
2. We know there will be a huge catastrophe that wipes out all the proto-settlements. This threat could be the culprit.
We are in a parallel reality. And we're probably already dead. For some reason we've been thrown into an afterlife that is a mimicry of the real world.
One big upside to this idea is it allows us to re-write some of Golarions history through our actions without heavily effecting the reality the P&P takes place on. So players can travel to the Western River Kingdoms without having the fact they didn't find Aragon or Calambea break the lore.
Through some level of communication with the normal plane and perhaps some special events where we can "break free" the developers could still let our actions change the main storyline of the Pathfinder setting sometimes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding was that the effect was more for an area of the world rather than to specific individuals, which I think would cover why it would apply to people of varying alignments and faiths.
I understood there was an area restriction but does that apply to every creature in the area including NPCs?
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding was that the effect was more for an area of the world rather than to specific individuals, which I think would cover why it would apply to people of varying alignments and faiths.I understood there was an area restriction but does that apply to every creature in the area including NPCs?
I would say that it does. I can't recall many MMO's in which NPCs of all types don't respawn after being slain. Unless it is a storyline quest type singular performance thing.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Guess that would explain why we keep seeing the same goblins camping in the same place and taking over the same lands.
Though even if this wasn't the case maybe I think the next most logical explanation would be, like you mentioned, there was a greater threat. Maybe from the Worldwound or Numeria. I could especially see things from Numeria with all the space aspects which could link into the elder gods somehow being pulled into Golarion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The main reason I disfavor all NPC's being marked by Pharasma is that means when we go out and kill 500 goblins there should still be 500 goblins and we're supposed to be able to reduce escalations.
I think some named Pharasma marked NPC bosses that keep re-emerging could be fun, but I'd rather it not be every goblin and wolf.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, well, well. A thread that is actually dear to my heart. I am pretty keen on revolving a good amount of RP around this. Why do we have the Mark and why did the marked descend on the river Kingdoms? I think it's something best left open ended, as an eternal meta plot the characters aim to solve but maybe never will. All of the reasons given here are valid beliefs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe some wizard somewhere was trying to create a new spell. An Arcane Mass Resurrection spell that went wrong. Maybe a demon lord tampered with it or a rival deity of Pharasma wanted to mess with her and 'adjusted' the spell to Resurrect certain people in the River Kingdoms and the spell is continuous, infecting new people (new players) as time goes by.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, well, well. A thread that is actually dear to my heart. I am pretty keen on revolving a good amount of RP around this. Why do we have the Mark and why did the marked descend on the river Kingdoms? I think it's something best left open ended, as an eternal meta plot the characters aim to solve but maybe never will. All of the reasons given here are valid beliefs.
I like the open ended part. The Gods might have the answer but they haven't elected to tell us semi-immortal and mortals yet. Causing a lot of rumors and misinformation to be spread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, well, well. A thread that is actually dear to my heart. I am pretty keen on revolving a good amount of RP around this. Why do we have the Mark and why did the marked descend on the river Kingdoms? I think it's something best left open ended, as an eternal meta plot the characters aim to solve but maybe never will. All of the reasons given here are valid beliefs.
That's a really interesting way of doing it I would hope if done that way though they had NPC's mention it, and maybe even slip some clues into the world about the nature of the mark.
I mean there is a lot of room for "Oooooh a mystery!" with that, and I think that could really appeal to people but I could also see it coming off more as "The developers were too lazy to come up with a good story."
Andius, you forgot the "Have a nice day!" part of the disclaimer. 1/10
The main reason I disfavor all NPC's being marked by Pharasma is that means when we go out and kill 500 goblins there should still be 500 goblins and we're supposed to be able to reduce escalations.
Don't worry, the immortal goblins are really stupid. It takes them ages to find their way back from the spawn area. :)
Anyways, I have a feeling Paizo already has ideas in mind on the story, so I don't know if this can really be considered crowdforging. It's fun to speculate, though. :D
I really liked the theory that this is some sort of grand plan Pharasma hatched with Aroden relating to the false prophecies and Groetus. Sure, it's nuts, but it's nuts in an awesome way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, well, well. A thread that is actually dear to my heart. I am pretty keen on revolving a good amount of RP around this. Why do we have the Mark and why did the marked descend on the river Kingdoms? I think it's something best left open ended, as an eternal meta plot the characters aim to solve but maybe never will. All of the reasons given here are valid beliefs.I like the open ended part. The Gods might have the answer but they haven't elected to tell us semi-immortal and mortals yet. Causing a lot of rumors and misinformation to be spread.
Yeah, to try and decide one reason for it would be an RP trap But different groups could decide for themselves what they believe and use it to explain their in game actions.
For example, an evil group could decide they were given the mark to rule over lesser beings that don't have it (Magneto style). Good groups could decide they have it to protect the weak, a Neutral group could say they want better, worlds, all of them...and a bandit type group could say "we don't care, let's just use it to our own advantage."
Scholars could research the answer and priests can explain for their Gods. Etc. etc.
I have plans for Grickin to have his own deranged theories about the Mark, actually. I definitely hope the explanation isn't canonically revealed any time soon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Upon death, souls migrate to Pharasma's Boneyard in the Outer Sphere, which sits atop an impossibly tall spire that pierces the Astral Plane. Pharasma makes no decision on whether a death is just or not; she views all with a cold and uncaring attitude, and decides on which of the Outer Planes a soul will spend eternity. Pharasma is also the goddess of birth and prophecy: from the moment a creature is born, she sees what its ultimate fate will be, but reserves final judgement until that soul finally stands before her. As the goddess of death and rebirth, she abhors the undead and considers them a perversion.
Many of Pharasma's priests have lost their faith or have gone mad as a result, but those who remain, are finding that Pharasma's hold over prophecy is becoming less important, while her domain over death, birth, and fate, are growing stronger. It's a time of change for Pharasma and her faith.
There is something occurring within the Emerald Spire. Something that is weakening Pharasma's powers of prophesy and drawing her Boneyard to superimpose itself over the Spire. There are souls that She can no longer "see" the future of, yet She can now "hold" or control their fate. This control is in place in an irregular radius from the Spire and will increase as Pharasma draws more of these strange unreadable souls to the area. She will not release them, or perhaps cannot, until the mysterious forces pulling Her own Spire and Boneyard are released from what ever "thing" within Emerald Spire is resolved or ended.
I would love to see a novel or such released some time later on dealing with the Marked by Pharasma phenomenon. I would definitely buy it to read.
I was gonna buy it to prop up the short leg on the dining room table, but whatever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, well, well. A thread that is actually dear to my heart. I am pretty keen on revolving a good amount of RP around this. Why do we have the Mark and why did the marked descend on the river Kingdoms? I think it's something best left open ended, as an eternal meta plot the characters aim to solve but maybe never will. All of the reasons given here are valid beliefs.That's a really interesting way of doing it I would hope if done that way though they had NPC's mention it, and maybe even slip some clues into the world about the nature of the mark.
I mean there is a lot of room for "Oooooh a mystery!" with that, and I think that could really appeal to people but I could also see it coming off more as "The developers were too lazy to come up with a good story."
Well I did ask Ryan directly if they would at least start us off with something as simple as "The marked have arrived in the River Kingdoms and nobody knows why" as an official meta plot and was shot down :(
So I guess it's up to us. I have brought it up in things like the "RP council" we had about 6 months back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pharasma was wounded in a battle with Urgathoa over control of the boneyard. Though she pushed the forces back, her lifeblood mixed with the storms raging across the river lands, and those drenched in the Fate Storms wrath have been marked by the experience.
I like the premise of unintentionally spilled blood.
That is a very good way to have it happen "accidentally". I think adding something about the blood being attracted to those with a spark of greatness in them or inspiring a spark of greatness in those it touches could help explain why our characters are so much more rich and powerful than the average commoner.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Upon death, souls migrate to Pharasma's Boneyard in the Outer Sphere, which sits atop an impossibly tall spire that pierces the Astral Plane. Pharasma makes no decision on whether a death is just or not; she views all with a cold and uncaring attitude, and decides on which of the Outer Planes a soul will spend eternity. Pharasma is also the goddess of birth and prophecy: from the moment a creature is born, she sees what its ultimate fate will be, but reserves final judgement until that soul finally stands before her. As the goddess of death and rebirth, she abhors the undead and considers them a perversion.Many of Pharasma's priests have lost their faith or have gone mad as a result, but those who remain, are finding that Pharasma's hold over prophecy is becoming less important, while her domain over death, birth, and fate, are growing stronger. It's a time of change for Pharasma and her faith.There is something occurring within the Emerald Spire. Something that is weakening Pharasma's powers of prophesy and drawing her Boneyard to superimpose itself over the Spire. There are souls that She can no longer "see" the future of, yet She can now "hold" or control their fate. This control is place in an irregular radius from the Spire and will increase as Pharasma draws more of these strange unreadable souls to the area. She will not release them, or perhaps cannot, until the mysterious forces pulling Her own Spire and Boneyard are released from what ever "thing" within Emerald Spire is resolved or ended.
That is really interesting.
No, one is the inconveniently heavy one we break off when we need to beat smartass humans' kneecaps in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really liked the theory that this is some sort of grand plan Pharasma hatched with Aroden relating to the false prophecies and Groetus. Sure, it's nuts, but it's nuts in an awesome way.
I've been proposing that idea as it has come up, so I'll expand on it.
Perhaps Groetus is basically entropy itself. While Rovagug might want to smash the planet into rubble, Groetus wants to unmake reality.
He creeps ever closer, and Pharasma pushes him back with the souls of those who didn't want to be bound up with gods or an afterlife anyway: atheists, in the context of a world in which the divine is demonstrable. People who are more concerned with their personal survival probably think it's crazy, but whether they know it or not, the godless are effectively sacrificing their own existences for the protection of the existence of everyone and everything else.
I think Aroden may have worked with Pharasma to find a way to break a prophecy, making the future more malleable, so it may no longer be deterministic and doomed. He apparently sacrificed himself in the process, so maybe his life is the power supply for the somewhat-immortal defenders of reality that our characters may one day become. Fighting over territory in a corner of the RK is basically just an elaborate training exercise, and whether we come to love or hate one another is irrelevant when the experiences of love and hate are themselves on the line.
For Pharasma's part, she's going to die too if Groetus dissolves reality. Though it may weaken her to violate her own codes, helping to break a prophecy and allowing free resurrections for certain people in a certain region are rational moves, given the stakes. These are strange aeons, in which even Death may die.
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Would it better if called "Marked of the Gods" and mean that gods are blessing us to fight for our objectives endless? Or "Marked of XXX" where XXX is the name of our assigned God (as Neverwinter did).
Maybe Cayden Cailean freeing us from shackles of death. Calistria and Asmodeus trickering the death of their cult. Erastil need champion to fight against immortal Asmodeus worshipers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would love to see a novel or such released some time later on dealing with the Marked by Pharasma phenomenon. I would definitely buy it to read.I was gonna buy it to prop up the short leg on the dining room table, but whatever.
It isn't set in the right universe, but my novel Modulus is precisely 11/16" thick at the spine. I'd love to make the sale, but a partial deck of playing cards is more easily adjustable.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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In one of the Supernatural season 4 episodes, the Reaper of a little city was incapacitated. It resulted in everybody in the city to be incapable of dying, even with a bullet in the heart.
Maybe Pharasma has been weakened, by some sort of event, and was forced to "let go" of a little piece of the world. The River Kingdoms being a very chaotic and unorganised land, maybe she chose it, because it was the only place to let go of, without creating a major unbalance in the world politic.
The mark would then be more of a scar from being cut-off, a little like a belly button.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think any potential hypothesis is required to include a corollary about the second mark only some marked have to be complete.
That occasional second mark seems to me to rule out anything in the "accidental" category.
And really, how often do gods explain to mortals what's going on? I'm in favor of narrowing it down to a few strong theories you can pick from based on bias but no one ever knows for sure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the first mark is "accidental", there is no reason for the second mark to not also be able to be "accidental." Either through increased exposure to the accident, or if there were two accidents in a short amount of time, and the twice-marked just happened to be the cosmic chew toys that were in both places at the wrong time.
For a mundane example:
I could accidentally fall on a knife. It would leave a mark. That doesn't prevent the possibility that I could have fallen on two knives, both leaving marks. It also doesn't prevent the possibility that I could fall on a knife again tomorrow, that leaves a mark as well.
Ha, thats a nice angle, the legendary "thrice marked".
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is fun ;-)
(disclaimer: this post was left unsubmitted for a day, i may have been ninjaed by an army of posters)
I ask myself: Why does Pharasma not want us to go to afterlifes?
Possible answers I've come up with for myself, and that I see already in the thread:
1) Doing so would disrupt something
2) She made promises to the other gods
3) It's all part of the "grand secret plan"
in more detail:
1) Doing so would disrupt something
Pharasma was wounded in a battle with Urgathoa over control of the boneyard. Though she pushed the forces back, her lifeblood mixed with the storms raging across the river lands, and those drenched in the Fate Storms wrath have been marked by the experience.I like the premise of unintentionally spilled blood.
That is a very good way to have it happen "accidentally". I think adding something about the blood being attracted to those with a spark of greatness in them or inspiring a spark of greatness in those it touches could help explain why our characters are so much more rich and powerful than the average commoner.
My expansion: Pharasma fears that sending the marked ones through to the afterlives might dilute her power (kill a little bit or herself), or that the lords of the respective planes could use the marked ones to somehow tap into her portfolio and tamper with the balance (or simply bypass her judgement).
2) She made promises to the other gods
Would it better if called "Marked of the Gods" and mean that gods are blessing us to fight for our objectives endless? Or "Marked of XXX" where XXX is the name of our assigned God (as Neverwinter did).
Maybe Cayden Cailean freeing us from shackles of death. Calistria and Asmodeus trickering the death of their cult. Erastil need champion to fight against immortal Asmodeus worshipers
My Twist: It's a bet/game/research experiment between the other Gods where they want to see who has most influence, or simply want to see what (if anything) humans can achieve if left alone. We are the playing pieces (this is much how i run alignment/religion in PnP games...). Pharasma has promised to lay off the champions until the game is over.
3) the grand secret plan:
I really liked the theory that this is some sort of grand plan Pharasma hatched with Aroden relating to the false prophecies and Groetus. Sure, it's nuts, but it's nuts in an awesome way.I've been proposing that idea as it has come up, so I'll expand on it...
My twist: Combine with (1) above. Aroden's 'essence' is somehow distributed among a selection of mortals (for safekeeping, as a result of a failed last-ditch rescue attempt, or whatever secret reasons). As long as they are kept among the living, there is still hope of bringing Aroden back. In the meantime, the essence drives the marked ones towards every greater achievements.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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The intention is not that everyone has the Mark. PCs do, and maybe we'll have some NPCs that do, but certainly not all of them. Once we get a tutorial in, I think it's our plan to frame it around the basic setup of the Mark.
We do have a plan for what's going on, and Paizo has approved at least the generalities, if not yet all the particular plots we want to tie to it. We're planning to treat it as one of our lore mysteries that will guide our development of PvE content over time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The intention is not that everyone has the Mark. PCs do, and maybe we'll have some NPCs that do, but certainly not all of them. Once we get a tutorial in, I think it's our plan to frame it around the basic setup of the Mark.
We do have a plan for what's going on, and Paizo has approved at least the generalities, if not yet all the particular plots we want to tie to it. We're planning to treat it as one of our lore mysteries that will guide our development of PvE content over time.
HUUUUUuUuuuUUUUUzzzZZZZZzzZZZZZAaaAAAAAAHHHHHHHHh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Something to consider, as people have been posting as if they are already experienced characters, perhaps they are at the start but the Mark of Pharasma when applied had a rebirth like effect which stripped away any previous being/experience, reformating if you like, everyone marked back to the core basics ie: commoner .
This free's those marked to be themselves while relearning or newly learning what they must to survive in this river-kingdoms.
As for the second Mark well that could do anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We do have a plan for what's going on, and Paizo has approved at least the generalities, if not yet all the particular plots we want to tie to it. We're planning to treat it as one of our lore mysteries that will guide our development of PvE content over time.
So it seems we shall have a reason for the mark, and one that Paizo will stamp as acceptable lore when complete.
When considering character back-story, my question is - for how long has the mark been doing its thing with our characters?
Here's why I ask. When considering our character's back-story, I doubt most of us are envisioning that they burst into existence on day one of EE (unless that's the plan mentioned above by Stephen). Certainly the local geography, and at least Thornkeep, precede our character's arrival.
From a back-story, lore-ish point of view, I'm assuming most of us are planning at least a little history of where our characters were prior to appearing in Thornkeep.
So if our back-stories include having been in the River Kingdoms before that moment, how long have we been immortal? Is this a recent event, or could this have been happening for years, centuries, etc.?
I know if we say that the mark has been in effect for any lengthy period of time, it begs the question of our lack of skills. But then, even if the mark hasn't begun its resurrectionist work until recently, unless we really did just burst into existence with the start of EE, any amount of back-story begs that same question. It's one bit of disbelief I can suspend as a RPer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here are some additions from Stephen, earlier this week:
Our PFO characters have some history and background of their lives before they got Pharasma's mark. We should start off as functional wizards, fighters, etc.. not as peasants with clubs.Don't want to expound on this too much, since whenever we get story elements into the tutorial it will cover this but:
- You start the game having just had your first resurrection (nobody knows they'll have the mark until they die and rez with it).
- Your stuff was not threaded prior to this death. If you had a bunch of gear, presumably it's wherever you died the first time (somewhere not appearing in your new available stomping grounds, or somewhere you'll find has already been looted by the time you get back to your first corpse... just saying, story-wise, it's gone).
- We're hoping to be intentionally vague about the memory-affecting elements of the first death. Were you basically a callow youth fresh off the farm heading up to fight at the Worldwound, with no loss in skills because you never really had any? Were you a powerful hero who has lost most of your practical knowledge and now has to build it back up? Do you have total amnesia, or do you remember your life just not your skills? It's up to how you want to roleplay it.
- Subsequent deaths are easier than the bumpy ride of the first one, so you retain your full memories and have the benefit of threads.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobs - I think our characters start day 1 of EE with 1000 xp. They gain 100 xp per hour. The mark hasn't been doing its thing long. There might have been a similar Pharasma event before, but I think this one has just started.
I think the first thing our characters had in common is that they did die. They might have died penniless or alone or just away from a cleric and weren't able to be resurrected. Or they died and were taken by Pharasma, and somewhere a cleric is explaining that the spell doesn't always succeed. Or they died peacefully in their sleep, not in a traumatic event.
The second thing we have in common is that we appeared in Thornkeep, probably naked and without gear, and were given rudimentary gear by the priests of Pharasma (Pops?). None of us appeared earlier than Day 1. Maybe someone did, but it wasn't one of us. And we know people will appear after us.
I think our backstories can have us in the River Kingdoms before Pharasma marked us. For some of us, like owners of taverns or the like, it makes perfect sense that we have resources here to fall back upon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Our characters have somehow been marked by Pharasma causing us to return to life after we die.
Its marked "of" Pharasma, not marked "by" Pharasma, which makes quite a large difference.
A mark by Pharasma implies Pharasma decided to place the mark there for her own reasons.
A mark of Pharasma could have been placed by some other power as a signal or warning to the goddess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my head, I'm picturing this town. Some priests were given a calling to be here, at this moment. Then people started appearing, naked and helpless. We might have actually appeared 10 hours ago, weak and befuddled. We were given clothes, allowed to rest, and told to find our way to the statue when we were ready.
The priests likely starting asking us for our stories, at least at first. Perhaps they stopped in the flood of miracles, or perhaps they are still asking each newcomer what they remember.
We characters have already been comparing stories. Many of us might remember dying. Some of us don't. Some of us died in the River Kingdoms, don't remember dying, but will find out from family that there was a body and it was buried.
The possibilities are endless. A character can be in deep denial that she ever died. Others will nod at her story, and politely not ask, "So how did you end up on the slab, newborn? How were you shorn of your knowledge and skills and finery? Pharasma's Sheep, that's what we are."
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Goblin Squad Member
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The possibilities are endless.
But only if they fit the lore GW is providing.
Not being much of a Pathfinder lore buff, I was trying to do a little research to tie one of my characters into the actual lore of the area. I found something I liked, but the pivotal event occurred over 200 years prior to present date. This character being human (rather than one of the longer lived races) I had wondered if he could have been wandering about the River Kingdoms for that long, already resurrecting over the years when killed, due to the Mark.
From Stephen's comments, that's not going to work. I can roll with that. It's certainly not the first time I've had to tweak a character to make something happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nice idea. I try not to have my toons sound too "magical"...at least not more so than the norm (even for a fantasy setting).
I do, however, tend to like player made lore and reasons for how things work as much or better than what comes prepackaged in most MMOs. I just don't want to seem to purposefully clash with the lore, so I'm asking questions in advance. :)