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How, exactly, does this PFS legal ring function according to RAW?
This ornate gold ring is set with a single round sapphire and platinum stems. When worn, the ring of the sublime protects its wearer from fear effects as if constantly under the effects of remove fear. Wearers of rings of the sublime in Taldor often believe the ring’s ability to combat fear also removes social anxiety, making the wearer a more confident and self-assured member of high society.
So it is a constant remove fear item ...
You instill courage in the subject, granting it a +4 morale bonus against fear effects for 10 minutes. If the subject is under the influence of a fear effect when receiving the spell, that effect is suppressed for the duration of the spell.
Remove fear counters and dispels cause fear.
And here is where the debate comes in. Does the ring of the sublime merely grant a +4 morale bonus against fear effects, or does it render the wearer immune to fear effects?
There are 4 possible stances I can see one taking with this ring at a PFS table:
1) It only confers a +4 bonus vs fear effects
2) It renders the wearer immune to fear effects because it suppresses fear effect indefinitely due to the constant remove fear effect.
3) It grants a +4 morale bonus against fear effects and, in the event of a failed save, it then suppresses the fear effect one round late automatically.
4) It grants a +4 morale bonus against fear effects while worn, but if removed and then placed back on, it would suppress the fear effect.
If the items had been written, "it grants the wearer a +4 morale bonus against fear effects" or "it renders the wearer immune to fear effects", this would be no problem. By stating it is a constant version of a spell that has conditions as to when the spell is cast in relation to the fear effect, it leaves it open to interpretation.
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And another thought just occurred to me. If the wearer has cause fear cast upon them, what happens?
The affected creature becomes frightened. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, it is shaken for 1 round. Creatures with 6 or more HD are immune to this effect. Cause fear counters and dispels remove fear.
would the ring become inert for the duration of the cause fear since it counters and dispels remove fear? Would it be inert for a single round before the constant remove fear kicked in again?
#4
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I lean more toward #3 because of the word "constantly" which was chosen instead of the "continuous" in your example. Constantly, at least to me, implies that that it keeps casting. But I can't prove this either way in RAW.
But, If you are right FLite, I can see situations where the whole party has to dogpile the heavy to grapple and force this darn ring on the heavy's hand before he runs away. What fun.
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Also, I'd agree that the ring would become inert for the duration of a "cause fear" since they counter/dispell each other.
Dispelling is not something that uses a duration; dispelling is permanent.
However, a magic item is not a spell. The only precedent we have for dispelling a magic item is in the text for dispel magic:
If you succeed, all the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers its magical properties.
So really you have two options if cause fear is cast on the wearer:
1) You note that the ability to suppress a magic item is a mechanic unique to dispel magic and not part of the broader magic rules, further note that "as if under the constant effects of X" is not the same as X actually being a spell that's active, and conclude that the "counters and dispels" line of cause fear does not enter the picture; or
2) You follow the only magic item dispel/suppression precedent we have (dispel magic) and have cause fear's "dispel" clause function the same way: suppress the ring for 1d4 rounds.
Not sure which I'd personally pick, but those seem to be the options.
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For this ruling to be made, we would need a RAW definition of "constant effect" I found the following in the Monster rules, and was the only place I could find a reference to a constant effect.
Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier.
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
Format: At will—burning hands (DC 13); Location: Spell-Like Abilities.
as silly as it sounds I would argue #4. The sad part is. If you wer eunder a fear effect that is frightened or paniced, you would be running and not twiddling with a ring.
The sad part is some effects that have a DC to cause fear on you(dirty trick, demolarize) this would not really help.
Train your familiar/companion/party to knock you down and twiddle with your ring if they see you start to run.
<nod>
-j
tackle'em and pull his ring off and put it back on again, trust me!
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#4
As I see it, if someone did cast Cause fear on the ring wearer, the Remove fear effect on the wearer would be removed for 1 round, then the ring would re cast the spell.
A magic item will stop functioning if it is the target of a dispel magic. A dispel magic targeted on the item wearer don't do anything to the item.
The same should apply for Cause fear against this ring, to directly affect the ring with a magical attack you need to target it. But then Cause fear don't do anything to magical items, so the ring would be unaffected.
#3
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#4
As I see it, if someone did cast Cause fear on the ring wearer, the Remove fear effect on the wearer would be removed for 1 round, then the ring would re cast the spell.
A magic item will stop functioning if it is the target of a dispel magic. A dispel magic targeted on the item wearer don't do anything to the item.
The same should apply for Cause fear against this ring, to directly affect the ring with a magical attack you need to target it. But then Cause fear don't do anything to magical items, so the ring would be unaffected.
I think you just described #3 :)
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I think you just described #3 :)#4
As I see it, if someone did cast Cause fear on the ring wearer, the Remove fear effect on the wearer would be removed for 1 round, then the ring would re cast the spell.
A magic item will stop functioning if it is the target of a dispel magic. A dispel magic targeted on the item wearer don't do anything to the item.
The same should apply for Cause fear against this ring, to directly affect the ring with a magical attack you need to target it. But then Cause fear don't do anything to magical items, so the ring would be unaffected.
No.
Failed save = the target is affected.
Cause fear counter Remove fear = remove fear is cancelled, but the target is not affected as the two spell cancel each other.
Against any other form of fear that not counter Remove fear directly both effect will stay in play on the same character.
Remove fear counters and dispels cause fear.
and
Cause fear counters and dispels remove fear.
It will work that way only with a spell/effect with that line in it.
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Failed save = the target is affected.
Cause fear counter Remove fear = remove fear is cancelled, but the target is not affected as the two spell cancel each other.
Note: there's never a save involved when you're talking about a spell dispelling its opposite.
Here's how I read it: You get a +4 (that much is sure). If you still fail, the fear effect is suppressed while you wear the ring. So, if you then take the ring off (and I have seen people "pass the ring around" for other effects) then you become effected.
Of course, if you fail and the fear spell duration ends, you can take the ring off no problems.
Makes sense?
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Note: there's never a save involved when you're talking about a spell dispelling its opposite.Failed save = the target is affected.
Cause fear counter Remove fear = remove fear is cancelled, but the target is not affected as the two spell cancel each other.
Exact.
Mike Bramnik was saying that my interpretation was the same as, n. 3:
3) It grants a +4 morale bonus against fear effects and, in the event of a failed save, it then suppresses the fear effect one round late automatically.
instead they are two completely different things.
I go with #4 as well. It seems to me that the act of wearing the ring (standard action) is identical mechanically to having remove fear and then permanency cast you for as long as you wear the ring. With a standard action you can 'wear' the ring again, re-casting the spell. If you are under the effect of a fear spell when you this the effect is suppressed.