Item creation caster level


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

A player of mine has made the argument that as long as he can meet the requirement of having the right item creation feat, he can create items with a higher caster level then his caster level. In this case, he's a 9th level caster, but wants to be able to craft an Ioun Stone. I'm inclined to agree with his read on the rules:

Relevant sections:

(From Magic Item Creation)
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

(From Creating Magic Armor)
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. Magic armor or a magic shield must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any armor or shield special abilities.

(From Creating Magic Weapons)
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.

(From Advanced Player's Guide: Magic Item Descriptions)
The creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and additional requirements may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).

(From Ioun Stone)
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Cost half the market price

My read here is that since Magic Item Creation states that the only hard prerequisite is the item creation feat (and the spell for potions, spell-trigger and spell completion magic items), that not meeting the minimum caster level increases the DC by +5.

Now personally, I think it's ridiculous that a 20th level item is only a little harder (+8) then a 12th level item for a caster that doesn't meet this, I'm inclined to make every level you don't meet a missed requirement. E.g. the requirement is a 12th level caster. Being a 12th level caster it's implied that you must first be an 11th level caster and for that a 10th level caster and finally the implied prerequisite for 10th in this case is met as a 9th level caster. So in this case I would apply +15 to the DC. 5 for the explicit missed prerequisite, and 10 for the 2 implicit missing prerequisites.

Thoughts?

Grand Lodge

The APG is incorrect. He can create items without having the listed caster level, just making a Spellcraft check appropriate to the item's CL (also note that many magic items are listed with a higher CL than the minimum that they need by the guidelines). Where caster level is an actual requirement, it's one of those that can be bypassed with a further +5 to the Spellcraft DC.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Starglim wrote:
The APG is incorrect. He can create items without having the listed caster level, just making a Spellcraft check appropriate to the item's CL (also note that many magic items are listed with a higher CL than the minimum that they need by the guidelines). Where caster level is an actual requirement, it's one of those that can be bypassed with a further +5 to the Spellcraft DC.

Are there any references stating that the APG rule is invalid?

Grand Lodge

Devon Jones wrote:
Starglim wrote:
The APG is incorrect. He can create items without having the listed caster level, just making a Spellcraft check appropriate to the item's CL (also note that many magic items are listed with a higher CL than the minimum that they need by the guidelines). Where caster level is an actual requirement, it's one of those that can be bypassed with a further +5 to the Spellcraft DC.
Are there any references stating that the APG rule is invalid?

I linked to the FAQ. Here it is again:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9n9x


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Sorry, was reading on a phone and the link was hard to differentiate on that display. I appreciate your help, thanks!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In addition to the things the OP mentioned, another hard prerequisite that cannot be bypassed by adding +5 to the Spellcraft DC is the caster level requirement of construct creatures. Ultimate Magic makes this absolutely clear, and it is an exception to the general rule.


Ravingdork wrote:
In addition to the things the OP mentioned, another hard prerequisite that cannot be bypassed by adding +5 to the Spellcraft DC is the caster level requirement of construct creatures. Ultimate Magic makes this absolutely clear, and it is an exception to the general rule.

It's also a very unfortunate rule :-(

Liberty's Edge

Though, as a GM, it is certainly within your purview to rule that the CL requirement must be met. Or a compromise could be made in which it is a +10 to DC instead of +5.

Personally, I am of the mindset that the CL should be a requirement, and would house rule it as such.


I've seen various houserules on how to handle CL requirements for different things. Bottom line is that I rarely see anything too powerful with letting things stay RAW. And even if it happens, when the players are making items that hasn't been specifically printed then it is always subject to GM approval per RAW... So if you see anything outrageous being suggested by the players, don't feel bad saying no (But if you are feeling friendly and want to keep a good atmosphere you might want to explain why).


HangarFlying wrote:

Though, as a GM, it is certainly within your purview to rule that the CL requirement must be met. Or a compromise could be made in which it is a +10 to DC instead of +5.

Personally, I am of the mindset that the CL should be a requirement, and would house rule it as such.

I rule that the caster level requirement is cumulative. Ie, if you are CL 9 and want to make an item that is CL 12 then fine. But in order to be CL 12, you must first be CL 11, in order to be CL 11, you must first be CL 10, et cetera. So the DC modifier is effectively 5x the difference between your CL and the item's CL. This seems to work well because the biggest gap I ever see is 3-4 caster levels.

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