Stealth in Alpha


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Goblin Squad Member

Decius Brutus wrote:
And when you have research 4, will you train missiles 1 because it takes so little time compared to research 5 and has a passive benefit? Or will you train the skill you will use more often, and get it 10 minutes sooner?

I will not train missiles 1 because in order to use missiles 1 I would need to mount a missile launcher on my ship and that's not useful to an industrial character.

If however I got a free missile launcher with no fitting requirements on every ship I ever flew forever after training missiles 1, you could bet your ass I'd train missiles 1. It would be stupid not to. Hell I'd train missiles to at least 2 or 3.

That's the point I'm arguing. So far nobody has mentioned any stealth/perception related items, slotted abilities, or any downsides to taking them other than training cost. That's broken.

Guurzak wrote:
I don't think anyone wants this...

Based on their comments Decius, Being and Randomwalker all seem ok with it. I don't think they really understand what they are asking for though.

Goblin Squad Member

@ Andius

You can see that there is a trade off for training those skills outside of your bailiwick, can't you? You do realize that there will probably be a large difference between someone that takes a rank or two in a "feat" and someone that goes "all in" with it, don't you?

If those are not true things (the level differentials), then you may have a point.

Goblin Squad Member

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For sure someone with stealth 1-5 will not be nearly as effective at stealth as someone with stealth 20. However they are much better than someone with stealth 0.

When it gets to the point that I can take multiple levels and stealth for a small fraction of the cost of a single level in my main skills, then I'm going to seize the opportunity to do so because that 2% bonus to damage I'm taking 2 weeks to train can wait an extra day or two for me to get the ability to be 10% closer to them before they can detect me.

HOWEVER. If I need to tie up an ability slot or dedicate a piece of my equipped gear to it, then it's less useful to take if I'm not going all in on it.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

For sure someone with stealth 1-5 will not be nearly as effective at stealth as someone with stealth 20. However they are much better than someone with stealth 0.

When it gets to the point that I can take multiple levels and stealth for a small fraction of the cost of a single level in my main skills, then I'm going to seize the opportunity to do so because that 2% bonus to damage I'm taking 2 weeks to train can wait an extra day or two for me to get the ability to be 10% closer to them before they can detect me.

HOWEVER. If I need to tie up an ability slot or dedicate a piece of my equipped gear to it, then it's less useful to take if I'm not going all in on it.

I get your point there. It does seem a bit strange and compelling for everyone to follow that pattern once those lower costs become trivial.

Goblin Squad Member

Here is how I would work it. This is a very rough draft system but the ideas should make sense.

You get a certain amount of passive points. Slotting passive abilities costs passive points.

Passives are:

Passive feat equivalents
Base attack / str and dex bonus equivalents
Spell slots / wis, int, and cha bonus equivalents
Save equivalents
Hit dice / con bonus equivalents
Movement speed bonuses
Skill point / int bonus equivalents

Keeping a dedication bonus in certain roles may require you to slot certain amounts of different types of passives as well as some specific passives.

Certain roles may have a reduced passive point cost for slotting certain passives.

That way, if you want to play a character with a lot of points in a lot of skills you'll have to weigh that against considerations like hit dice, saves, base attack, and feats.

Your equivalent of a high strength low intelligence barbarian would be someone whose chosen to seek the dedication bonus for the barbarian role and put a lot of the points into base attack equivalents while sticking relatively few in base attack equivalents.

Your equivalent of a low strength high intelligence rogue would be someone who has chosen the seek the dedication bonus for the rogue role and put a lot of points into skill equivalents while putting few in the base attack equivalents.

Or someone not seeking dedication bonuses could arrange their passives however they want for the custom role they've designed for themselves.

NOTE: I don't believe crafting/gathering skills should take passive points because people would just re-arrange their role for crafting when they do it. That's more of a nuisance than a balancing factor. This is more talking about skills you are likely to use on your average PvP raid or PvE dungeon run. So lockpicking counts. Swordsmithing doesn't.

Goblin Squad Member

Whew, a whole lot of conversation overnight on this thread. Sheesh! After Ryan's responses in this thead (again, thank you Ryan for spending the time entertaining this thread!), I think I'll make a few statements concerning stealth again, and then possibly duck out.

- Chapter 1 -

When looking at the Leveling Achievements again, I notice that perception is not a requirement for any of the other existing classes. That being said, I can't see a whole lot of players picking up "deep" perception (e.g. essentially wasting tons of XP on the exponentially more expensive levels of perception). On the same coin, though, Rogues have Stealth as a requirement for progression, and therefore they will always be forced to take Stealth, and will definitely naturally have the better half of the formula of stealth-vs-perception on a daily basis. With the rare exception of perhaps those players that decide to waste a ton of XP on the deepest levels of perception (but then, they would be obviously weaker at something else because of this).

So what I'm saying with the wall-o-text above is: Rogues for the most part will always be better at stealth than other players are at perception. That is, of course, unless a new role is introduced that has perception as a requirement for leveling up. Such a thing would mark a Rogue's stealth nearly completely worthless in PvP, and I hope that it never happens.

- Chapter 2 -

Now, regarding stealth-vs-perception and the formula Stephen gave us, I think Stealth still seems a tad bit under-powered. I'm hoping this will be tweaked a bit more (either with the general, overall "visibility range" variable being tweaked (preferred?), or the formula itself being tweaked). If not, I'm hoping that the deepest levels of stealth will provide massive bonuses to the Stealth skill - making a high-level Rogue practically unnoticeable to a player who doesn't have the XP waste going "that deep" into Perception.

- Chapter 3 -

One final note is the question of the perception level of NPCs in general. I believe that it would accurately reflect other general MMO game mechanics if all NPCs had a very, very low perception skill. Take for example the super-nasty Chaotic-Evil monsters that live out in the plains. They obviously don't see people coming from miles away (literally) as they should if an MMO was realistic to real life (or even the tabletop). No monster (unless otherwise completely distracted) would say to himself, "Oh look, an adventuring party about 75ft away. I won't attack them until they get to 62ft, and I'll let them rest, buff up, and prepare while I sit here." With the massive number of players running around in an MMO, these sorts of mechanics are obviously required. No changes here are required. But what I'm saying is that their perception should probably match their behavior, and be extremely low. This would obviously give the Rogue's stealth meaning, and truly be worth it being a requirement for its class. Let me know if I need to clarify what I'm talking about here more.

Goblin Squad Member

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Stealth may mean more than we assume it does. Perception may well mean much more than we can assume it does.

Example: I proposed an idea in the crowdforger tool that a force (or at least a force commander) should get updates to his map from his forward recon scout. I'm looking at the higher the perception skill the more info that field commander has to work with.

There may be more to all this than a stabbity stab bag-o-tricks.

Goblin Squad Member

Being a rogue, I plan on heavily training in stealth. But I also plan on being a scout, so I'll heavily train in perception too.

Teamspeak:
Me > "Hey, Commander Fult. Got a goblin encampment north of you. Might want to bypass if we are going to hit that bandit hideout in full strength."

Fult > [Gives his usually funny in-character reply.]

Goblin Squad Member

Banesama wrote:

Being a rogue, I plan on heavily training in stealth. But I also plan on being a scout, so I'll heavily train in perception too.

Teamspeak:
Me > "Hey, Commander Fult. Got a goblin encampment north of you. Might want to bypass if we are going to hit that bandit hideout in full strength."

Fult > [Gives his usually funny in-character reply.]

Huh?! Banesama is silly scout. If team bypass, how team is going to hit in full strenght? Go back stealthy and shout to let Fult know you reached location.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:

Stealth may mean more than we assume it does. Perception may well mean much more than we can assume it does.

Example: I proposed an idea in the crowdforger tool that a force (or at least a force commander) should get updates to his map from his forward recon scout. I'm looking at the higher the perception skill the more info that field commander has to work with.

There may be more to all this than a stabbity stab bag-o-tricks.

If you mean that as a justification for letting everyone take stealth for nothing but the training cost I'd like to point out that there will constantly be new low level players joining this game. I really hope low level stealth and perception aren't such common skills that they have no value to offer as scouts.

Goblin Squad Member

After getting higher stealth skill this evening, I noticed that it was starting to make a significant difference with the low-level NPCs. With players, it was still possible to see each other from a decent ways off down the road, even when stealthed and they have no Perception.

I'll have to experiment more throughout the weekend. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

It might always be the case that when using stealth vs another player, you will have to use the environment to get close or to slip by undetected. Hiding behind trees, slipping behind a rock, etc...

Goblin Squad Member

They could also solve some of that problem by having the role bonuses apply to certain skills. So even if the Rogue and Fighter have the same exactly stealth rank, the rogue gets a role bonus for currently being slotted as a Rogue cause that makes sense, essentially mimicking the 'class skill' bonuses that TT has.

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

Some messing around with Stealth video here.

Goblin Squad Member

Dakcenturi wrote:
Some messing around with Stealth video here.

Nice. Thanks for posting that. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Kitsune Aou wrote:
Dakcenturi wrote:
Some messing around with Stealth video here.
Nice. Thanks for posting that. :)

Great video, but I was left thinking, if stealth is only useful from that far away how useful is it really?

If I recall correctly, Rogues are supposed to engage in combat, then take the opportunity to back out again through the use of stealth, and then reengage. Even with the distraction of others, to have to move that far out to return to stealth is impractical.

Now I AM NOT saying we should have the WoW-esque stealth right next to you, nor the nearly invisible stealth without any type of cover.

There has to be a compromise between the two extremes.

Goblin Squad Member

How far can a bow shoot? Is it as far or further than the stealth distance shown in the video?

I agree with Bludd though, stealth needs to be 'powerful' enough to get the character close enough to engage in melee - or at least give them a good chance of getting close enough without being spotted.

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

Also, I'm not sure how much Stealth Feat Kit had taken at that point. Maybe higher levels of stealth decrease the range. As for the bow distance if it isn't that far it is pretty close.

Goblin Squad Member

Stealth may be not so efficient in combat for sneak attacks as of now, but think about smugglers (commoners with maxed load and stealth) and you will get a broader picture. Well, melee fighters with stealth and charge abilities aren't so bad either... :D

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
If I recall correctly, Rogues are supposed to engage in combat, then take the opportunity to back out again through the use of stealth, and then reengage. Even with the distraction of others, to have to move that far out to return to stealth is impractical.

What about Pathfinder Rogues gives you that impression? Because looking over the Pathfinder Rogue, here's what I see about Stealth: It's a class skill, but as has been mentioned before, it's trivially easy to get Stealth as a class skill in Pathfinder. Four, out of approximately a hundred and ten rogue talents give a enhancement of some kind to stealth. One lets you take time to build a ghillie suit, so maybe Power-consuming Rogue ability that gives you a temporary bonus to stealth, sure. One that lets you stealth without movement speed penalty, I could support something like this as a role devotion bonus. One that, if you are in concealemnt *and* the enemy consciously ignores you to the point of provoking an AoO, lets you make a stealth check as an AoO to get to treat them as flat-footed for 1 round, not really sure how that would work in PFO, there are ways, I'm just not sure which would be right. And one that lessens the stealth penalty for sniping. Again, those are out of over a hundred possible talents a rogue can take. That's it.

I cannot see anything about the Pathfinder Rogue that suggests they should be trying to stealth out of the middle of combat. If you want to hit and run harry a group, that's ranged attacks and sniping, not running into the middle of them, poking a guy, and running away again. And even with sniping, if the group has nothing better to do than track you down, they're going to.

Stealth in Pathfinder is not primarily a combat skill.

Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
If I recall correctly, Rogues are supposed to engage in combat, then take the opportunity to back out again through the use of stealth, and then reengage. Even with the distraction of others, to have to move that far out to return to stealth is impractical.
What about Pathfinder Rogues gives you that impression?
Dev Blog wrote:

Sneak Attack

The Rogue role feature is Sneak Attack. Just like Fighters' Weapon Specialization, slotting a Sneak Attack precludes slotting another role feature.
There are multiple different versions of Sneak Attack, depending on the style of fighting you plan to do as a Rogue. Each of them triggers on the Flat-Footed state, which can be applied by feats like Feint (and automatically in other situations if you don't have Uncanny Dodge). The standard version of the feat is currently called "Cut-Throat" and additionally gets Sneak Attack against any target that isn't targeting the Rogue. This essentially represents both flanking and attacking an unaware target from the tabletop: if you don't have the Rogue selected, you're not able to give him enough attention to keep him from poking you in your vulnerables. Additionally, we're looking into alternate versions of the feat like Daredevil and Opportunist that get Sneak Attack in different ways.
Like the generic attacks for Opportunity, many light weapons include attacks with a special effect on any Flat-Footed target, and Rogues will likely be the primary users of these attacks. But when Sneak Attack is available, every attack does additional base damage (making even simple weapons like daggers as good or better than a Fighter's weapons), and has a chance to apply stacks of the Afflicted damage-over-time (DoT) effect. This should mean that, in straight-up combat, a Rogue is a suboptimal damage dealer, but becomes the best source of physical damage in the game when Sneak Attacking.
Rogues have counterparts to the Fighter's Master of Opportunity feats, which are reactive feats that do something extra on any attack if the target is Flat-Footed. For example, Bleeding Attack grants the Bleeding DoT effect and Befuddling Strike grants extra stacks of the Oblivious debuff (a penalty to attack and Perception).

Stealth

One way to get Sneak Attack is to keep targets unaware of you, and the Stealth skill can help with this. Whenever you're in Stealth stance (your typical crouched, sneaky walk), the distance at which other players can see and target you is based on a comparison of your Stealth total and their Perception total. This ratio scales from 90% of the normal distances (for minimum Stealth vs. maximum Perception) to 10% of the normal distances (for maximum Stealth vs. minimum Perception), with equally matched characters resulting in a 50% reduction of sighting and targeting distances.
We expect these distances to be moderated by the server: the system doesn't even inform your client that there's someone around until you can see them, and attacks won't work if the server knows they're too far away for you to target. This means that the system should be resistant to client hacking. On the client side, we do expect to apply a translucency effect to a stealthed character when they're between their visible and targetable ranges, so if you're paying attention you might see the Rogue before flipping through targets happens to select him but it won't be an automatic thing.
Stealth breaks when you begin attacking, and then individuals further away might understand why your target was suddenly freaking out. But by that point, you've likely gotten off a few solid hits and can run away and enter stealth mode again, should you so desire.

It is not "What about Pathfinder Rogues gives this impression?" We should be asking, "What will Pathfinder Online Rogues be able to do with Stealth and Sneak Attacks?"

We have been told several times, the translation from TT to MMO will not be exact. I'm honestly not concerned at all how Rogues are handled in TT, that has no bearing on the game I'm looking to play.

Goblin Squad Member

I think stealth will not always be a super useful combat feature, but will be one of the ways you can get into position to sneak attack. It will not however be the only way. I think that's something important to keep in mind. Theoretically even walking by someone and suddenly attacking them would trigger sneak attack based on the description of the 'Cut-Throat' version.

CEO, Goblinworks

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I think you should think of rogue abilities in two buckets.

Bucket 1: Sneak attack

Normally this happens due to having another character apply the flat-footed condition on the target. In other words, it's something you do with a partner, not something you do by yourself.

Bucket 2: Stealth

Normally this is an ability you would use when trying to avoid being detected while scouting or spying. Sometimes you might get lucky and manage to make a Sneak Attack against a foe because of your stealth, but that would be the exceptional use of the ability rather than the common use.

And then you should think there's a 3rd bucket that hasn't been discussed much:

Bucket 3: Rogue skills

This is stuff like picking locks, setting traps, using magical devices, etc. You may find that many rogue characters rarely engage in PvP and are instead competent adventurers who use these abilities in the traditional manner associated with the tabletop game.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Bucket 3: Rogue skills

This is stuff like picking locks, setting traps, using magical devices, etc. You may find that many rogue characters rarely engage in PvP and are instead competent adventurers who use these abilities in the traditional manner associated with the tabletop game.

This must be about when the Thief, lost its backstabbing ability and focus on stealing (pickpocketing) and became the much more lame dungeoneering (Rogue)or the Acrobat which was more of a burglar type than the traditional Thief.

I certainly hope that with skill / feat entitled "Cutthroat", that the ability matches up with the name.

CEO, Goblinworks

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It would be terrible to have one-shot kills in an MMO.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
It would be terrible to have one-shot kills in an MMO.

Actually the backstab rarely lead to a one-shot, it was more of a finishing move, which would fit in nicely with a name like "Cutthroat", just saying.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:


Based on their comments Decius, Being and Randomwalker all seem ok with it. I don't think they really understand what they are asking for though.

Speaking only for myself, the issue isn't that I disagree with your description of the problem, but that I think the problem is a small one. Maybe I just expect stealth (and thus perception) to be a lot less powerful than you do.

If stealth becomes a key pvp skill and active/equipment bonuses are not a key part for stealth/perception you are obviously right.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
It would be terrible to have one-shot kills in an MMO.

What about a rank 20 archer against some idiot running around naked?

I agree, one-shots suck for 50% of the people that participate in them. But if the lowest defense, against the strongest attack doesn't result in a one-shot, there is little motivation to advance you character very far, if the last 2 years of their training result in a 5% increase.

CEO, Goblinworks

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The advantage is that you may be effective against lots of different opponent types, you can use lots of different keywords, you can inflict and leverage lots of effects, you can optimize several different builds, etc.

It shouldn't be about having overwhelming damage against individual targets. That is just the road to making high level characters death machines versus newbies.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Bucket 3: Rogue skills

This is stuff like picking locks, setting traps, using magical devices, etc. You may find that many rogue characters rarely engage in PvP and are instead competent adventurers who use these abilities in the traditional manner associated with the tabletop game.

These are the kind of things I was going on about when referring to rogues as utility characters.

Surely you can see that if people can quickly train the low levels of these skills and thereby make them a permanent part of their character that nobody will care about having low level rogues in their group.

Surely you can also see that in order to take wizard spells a fighter must give up their dedication bonus, even if they have already reached their capstone. Should they not also have to give it up for taking more rogue skills than any P&P fighter would ever have the skill points to train?

It's not the fighter with stealth and perception I'm concerned about so much as the fighter with climbing, swimming, intimidate, sense motive, stealth, perception, lockpicking, disable device, use magical device, spellcraft, acrobatics, and knowledge engineering all maxed out.

Capstone or no capstone a fighter with a ton of skills they can actively use should hit like a wet napkin and they should never be able to take as many skills as a rogue or bard potentially could

Goblin Squad Member

Jiminy wrote:

How far can a bow shoot? Is it as far or further than the stealth distance shown in the video?

I agree with Bludd though, stealth needs to be 'powerful' enough to get the character close enough to engage in melee - or at least give them a good chance of getting close enough without being spotted.

There is a bow feat that permits a shot from much farther than that, and it has a fairly quick cool down.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Being wrote:
Jiminy wrote:

How far can a bow shoot? Is it as far or further than the stealth distance shown in the video?

I agree with Bludd though, stealth needs to be 'powerful' enough to get the character close enough to engage in melee - or at least give them a good chance of getting close enough without being spotted.

There is a bow feat that permits a shot from much farther than that, and it has a fairly quick cool down.

Yes. The long-range bow attack is actually longer range than the maximum targeting distance.

Quantitative Stealth testing is on the list of things to do Real Soon Now. Has anyone hit a feat or ability score requirement that limits stealth training yet?


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Hey, let me tell a story from the demo room.

So I'm watching this lady playing the demo, hanging out in town. Apparently, someone's shooting at her, but she can't see where he is. He keeps shooting, and finally, she realizes where he is.

He's using Stealth, shooting, and Stealthing again, making him very hard to spot.

He tries to close, and a single Thorn Guard comes zooming across town like this PC killed his father. The attacker runs off, pursues offscreen by the Thorn Guard.

He attacks again later. Again, the demoer is injured. Again, the Thorn Guard finally notices and streaks over to chase the guy off. We imagine the Yakkity Sax playing.

This happens a couple more times.

The main point is in the third paragraph. Stealth is actually still effective—you just have to be clever with it, and use other mundane hideyholes as backup.


Put a six second cooldown on stealth generally, or when using an attack from stealth. Permastealth issues go away then.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Quantitative Stealth testing is on the list of things to do Real Soon Now. Has anyone hit a feat or ability score requirement that limits stealth training yet?

I did some more testing in my final stream of the weekend (e.g. approaching as far as I can to groups of mobs and/or "threading the needle" - with 50 stealth. It was fairly effective. I wasn't able to train Stealth 6 for some reason, but I don't remember why. I will see if I can find that in my videos... Or I'll just look again this weekend (if applicable).

Goblin Squad Member

I've seen the advantages of stealth since it was first described. I'm not concerned there won't be good uses for it. I'm concerned that even people who don't have stealth and perception as a primary focus will keep it a few levels behind their primary focus because it's useful enough to justify that on every single character, and so far there is no good reason not to. That nerfs the usefulness of it for those who specialize in it because everyone will have decent perception and stealth will be super common, meaning people will be anticipating it more.

Goblin Squad Member

Kitsune Aou wrote:
I wasn't able to train Stealth 6 for some reason, but I don't remember why.

According to the spreadsheet I got from Lee, Stealth 6 requires Adventure 8 (that is, 8 "Adventure" achievements) and Dexterity 12.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
I've seen the advantages of stealth since it was first described. I'm not concerned there won't be good uses for it. I'm concerned that even people who don't have stealth and perception as a primary focus will keep it a few levels behind their primary focus because it's useful enough to justify that on every single character, and so far there is no good reason not to. That nerfs the usefulness of it for those who specialize in it because everyone will have decent perception and stealth will be super common, meaning people will be anticipating it more.

I don't think this will happen. To get higher rankings of stealth, they will have to get other skills that are pre-reqs. Even if they keep stealth as a secondary, and maybe half of their primary, they will have to invest alot of points into it via the pre-reqs.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Kitsune Aou wrote:
I wasn't able to train Stealth 6 for some reason, but I don't remember why.
According to the spreadsheet I got from Lee, Stealth 6 requires Adventure 8 (that is, 8 "Adventure" achievements) and Dexterity 12.

Ah yes. Because of the way my character was resetting each time, that makes sense (kept wiping out nearly all my achievements, etc. so I would have had to go get 6 before spending all that XP... never happened in that order).

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tigari wrote:
I don't think this will happen. To get higher rankings of stealth, they will have to get other skills that are pre-reqs. Even if they keep stealth as a secondary, and maybe half of their primary, they will have to invest alot of points into it via the pre-reqs.

Well I know whatever character type I go with I'll probably be balancing several factors as best I can, listed in order from most to least importance

1. Movement speed
2. Burst damage output
3. Stealth / the ability to evade detection
4. Enough survivability to survive bursting down opponents.
5. The ability to track / detect other players.

In this open world format I think that's going to be a pretty common list of concerns. Characters built with these concerns in mind will evade most fights they don't want, come into most fights they do want with the upper hand / be hard to escape from, and be able to quickly win / move on from the fight before support arrives.

If stealth/perception aren't easily available to my build without a lot of cross training then I'll change my build if that doesn't have me sacrificing a lot of speed and damage output or make me unreasonably fragile.

Goblin Squad Member

Open field PVP is a very different game from siege warfare. Being able to avoid a fight does nothing for you if there's an important fight in a fixed location that you cannot afford to skip. Optimizing for a skirmish playstyle may make you very suboptimal for tower assaults or defenses. (And vice versa, of course.)

I think it would be a mistake to assume that skirmish will be the predominant mode of PVP interaction. I think it would be even more of a mistake to overlook the fact that the most critical battles in any war will not be skirmishes.

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:

Open field PVP is a very different game from siege warfare. Being able to avoid a fight does nothing for you if there's an important fight in a fixed location that you cannot afford to skip. Optimizing for a skirmish playstyle may make you very suboptimal for tower assaults or defenses. (And vice versa, of course.)

I think it would be a mistake to assume that skirmish will be the predominant mode of PVP interaction. I think it would be even more of a mistake to overlook the fact that the most critical battles in any war will not be skirmishes.

I think what you're going to see pretty rapidly is multiple builds evolving.

From reports from alpha it sounds like the XP to level is doubling for each level. I can't recall where I heard it said but I believe someone said it takes 1500xp for level one and 3000xp for level 2 so that could suggest:

1 - 1500
2 - 3000
3 - 6000
4 - 12,000
5 - 24,000
6 - 48,000
7 - 96,000
8 - 192,000
9 - 384,000
10 - 768,000
11 - 1,536,000
12 - 3,072,000
13 - 6,144,000
14 - 12,228,000
15 - 24,576,000
16 - 49,152,000
17 - 98,304,000
18 - 196,608,000
19 - 393,216,000
20 - 786,432,000

The curve is probably less extreme. If there aren't any factors modifying learning rate then we could tell by multiplying the XP earned in one day by 730 about how much level 20 will take, but based on the fact people are talking about hitting level 6 already and and it takes 2 years to hit 20 we do know it's a pretty extreme curve.

I'm guessing what most serious PvP groups will have is the builds that the members can train on their own time which will likely revolve around small group PvP since there will only be so many sieges going on.

For sieges we'll see it happen like EVE where there are certain roles the fleet needs and they tell you what skills to train and gear to fit if you want to fill that role.

So personal builds will likely be fast and evasive while the equivalent of EVE fleet doctrine builds will be designed to fight in formations.

Training straight to 20 in a single build will be almost unheard of.

I'm guessing a pretty popular one will be training a light armor archer for skirmishes and donning heavy armor for formation combat.

Goblin Squad Member

The XP gained for Alpha might not be the same for EE/OE. It could take longer to 'level' when EE starts.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nobody has hit level 6 from KS α XP yet.

I'm also pretty sure that the costs of faster overland movement will be more significant than they were in DFUW.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
I'm also pretty sure that the costs of faster overland movement will be more significant than they were in DFUW.

Well decreased movement speed from heavy armor is already in so we know movement speed is already a factor. I would be surprised if barbarians, monks, and wildshape druids don't move faster given that. But either way we still know for sure armor speed penalties are a factor.

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