Can my 5th level Soul Forger really create this good of a magic weapon?


Rules Questions


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So, I play a 4th level soul forger, and am looking at gaining the ability to craft enchantments onto my bonded scimitar at the next level. In downtime, he is a weaponsmith/armorsmith, so his skill progress and traits/feats are geared that way.

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relevant info:
INT 18 (+4)

Traits
Artisan - Craft (weapons): +2 Trait Bonus to Craft (weapons)
Bladed Magic: +1 Trait Bonus on crafting magic or masterwork armor
- I know the bonus from bladed magic doesn't stack with the artisan, but it does help on bows, i think, plus, it still provides the Arcane Pool duration benefit

Feats
Prodigy - Craft (weapons) & craft (armor): +2 untyped bonus on Craft (weapons) and Craft (armor)

This all, along with 5 ranks in the skill, and the Master Smith (Ex) class ability:

Craft (weapons) +23 = 5 (ranks) +3 (class skill) +4 (INT mod) +2 (trait bonus) +5 (untyped from Master Smith) +2 (untyped from Prodigy) +2 (circumstance bonus from masterwork tools working in smithy)

This gives me a guaranteed success by taking 10 on any DC up to 33.

500gp +1 Weapon: DC 8 = 5 +3 (CL)
2,000gp +2 Weapon: DC 16 = 5 +6 (CL) +5 (unmet prereq - CL)
4,500gp +3 Weapon: DC 19 = 5 +9 (CL) +5 (unmet prereq - CL)
8,000gp +4 Weapon: DC 22 = 5 +12 (CL) +5 (unmet prereq - CL)
12,500gp +5 Weapon: DC 26 = 5 +16 (CL) +5 (unmet prereq - CL)

2,000gp +1 Flaming Weapon: DC 21 = 5 +6 (CL) +5 (unmet - CL) +5 (unmet - Fireball)
4,500gp +1 Flaming Keen Weapon: DC 29 = 5 +9 (CL) +5 (unmet - CL) +5 (unmet - Fireball) +5 (unmet - Keen Edge)
8,000gp +1 Flaming Burst Keen Weapon: DC 32 = 5 + 12 (CL) +5 (unmet - CL) +5 (unmet - Fireball) +5 (unmet Keen Edge)

All of these are guaranteed with a take 10. Obviously, cost is an issue, I was just surprised by the capability.

Sczarni

Well.. in order to get Master Craftsman, you need 5 ranks (not plusses, actual ranks) in a skill. So 5th level. And in order to get Craft Magic Arms and Armor, you need 5th Level Caster.

I am curious as to how you got a 5th rank, actual rank, since nothing on the list you posted says "+1 rank". And at 4th level, then, you can only have 4 ranks in any skill.

Now, you might be able to get the latter with a CL+1 bonus for a spell-like ability, but I didn't see that in your build.

Remember, the item creation feat is the only thing required to make items (that can't be substituted with the +5 DC modifier). And folks can't make spell completion and spell effect items without having the spells (being a class with SPELLS class ability). Usually, anyway.

Silver Crusade

I think the OP is showing us the numbers for level 5 and asking "is it really this good?"

The answer is yes. Crafting in PF works like this, and in my opinion is a bit overpowered but I know the removal of the xp costs was a very popular change compared to D&D 3.5.

Liberty's Edge

CraziFuzzy wrote:

So, I play a 4th level soul forger, and am looking at gaining the ability to craft enchantments onto my bonded scimitar at the next level.

All of these are guaranteed with a take 10. Obviously, cost is an issue, I was just surprised by the capability.

I can't find an FAQ in it, but many GMs interpret the 'required caster level' of 3x the enhancement bonus as a requirement that cannot be bypassed.

Also, your crafting costs appear to be half of what they should be, or 25% of the market price, not 50%.


Are you planning to make a +5 weapon and a keen+1 flaming bust weapon? And yes crafting is more limited by gold than by skill in PF.


Usagi Yojimbo wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

So, I play a 4th level soul forger, and am looking at gaining the ability to craft enchantments onto my bonded scimitar at the next level.

All of these are guaranteed with a take 10. Obviously, cost is an issue, I was just surprised by the capability.

I can't find an FAQ in it, but many GMs interpret the 'required caster level' of 3x the enhancement bonus as a requirement that cannot be bypassed.

Also, your crafting costs appear to be half of what they should be, or 25% of the market price, not 50%.

No, any prerequisite can be bypassed by adding a +5 to the craft DC, except for actually requiring the crafting feat and needing to have the spell for consumables. See this FAQ.

And yeah, the prices listed are wrong. The standard formula for a magic weapon is enhancement squared x 2,000; if you are crafting then you take that divided by two.


maouse wrote:

Well.. in order to get Master Craftsman, you need 5 ranks (not plusses, actual ranks) in a skill. So 5th level. And in order to get Craft Magic Arms and Armor, you need 5th Level Caster.

I am curious as to how you got a 5th rank, actual rank, since nothing on the list you posted says "+1 rank". And at 4th level, then, you can only have 4 ranks in any skill.

Now, you might be able to get the latter with a CL+1 bonus for a spell-like ability, but I didn't see that in your build.

Remember, the item creation feat is the only thing required to make items (that can't be substituted with the +5 DC modifier). And folks can't make spell completion and spell effect items without having the spells (being a class with SPELLS class ability). Usually, anyway.

I'm not talking about taking Master Craftsman, there's no need, as a Magus IS a spellcaster. And, as others have clarified, I'm doing the math based on when I am "at the next level".

And to the others, yes, I showed the gp wrong. I had written it up differently before, and was showing the basis for the crafting time, which for a Soul Forger, is half the normal cost. Somewhere, I deleted that note. I'd go fix it, but unfortunately, I cannot edit it anymore.


Cap. Darling wrote:
Are you planning to make a +5 weapon and a keen+1 flaming bust weapon? And yes crafting is more limited by gold than by skill in PF.

No, it was an illustration of various DC's. I will be crafting whatever I can afford into my bonded scimitar, but will likely be doing the crafting work for the party as well (charging them for it, of course).


The big thing holding you back is time and how much your dm gives you. In many cases this is the biggest obstruction.

I'd suggest commingle to an agreement with your dm. The goal here is ro have fun for everyone. By raw you can skip the caster x3 thing but it is likely better for your game if that stays as a limiter. But that is between you and your dm.


maouse wrote:
Well.. in order to get Master Craftsman, you need 5 ranks (not plusses, actual ranks) in a skill. So 5th level. And in order to get Craft Magic Arms and Armor, you need 5th Level Caster.

A Soul Forger Magus is a caster and they can form an Arcane Bond with a weapon the same way a Wizard can. They don't need to take Craft Magic Arms and Armor to enchant a weapon that they're bonded to.


Suma3da wrote:
maouse wrote:
Well.. in order to get Master Craftsman, you need 5 ranks (not plusses, actual ranks) in a skill. So 5th level. And in order to get Craft Magic Arms and Armor, you need 5th Level Caster.
A Soul Forger Magus is a caster and they can form an Arcane Bond with a weapon the same way a Wizard can. They don't need to take Craft Magic Arms and Armor to enchant a weapon that they're bonded to.

While correct, they can craft on the bonded weapon without the feat, the trade-off is that the enchantments forged in this way are tied to the bond. Noone else can gain the benefits of bond-crafted enchantments. I will be taking the Craft Magic Arms & Armor feat at 5th level anyway, so all crafting will be done with that instead. This will allow me to not just craft on my bonded weapon, but all armor and weapons in the party.


Mojorat wrote:

The big thing holding you back is time and how much your dm gives you. In many cases this is the biggest obstruction.

I'd suggest commingle to an agreement with your dm. The goal here is ro have fun for everyone. By raw you can skip the caster x3 thing but it is likely better for your game if that stays as a limiter. But that is between you and your dm.

Our campaign already has plenty of downtime (using the Downtime rules in Ultimate Campaign). I've already been crafting masterwork weapons and armor for the party. Biggest limit on this capability will certainly be the price, so we'll be crafting as the loot comes in. A lot of the crafting will likely be adding enhancements to items found otherwise as loot.


Quote:
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. --Link
Quote:
The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.

Not that it says 'prerequisite' not 'special prerequisite'.

So it could easily mean you can't create magical weapons whose "+" or "total special ability equivalent +'s" are more than three times your caster level.


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Splendor wrote:
Quote:
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. --Link
Quote:
The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.

Not that it says 'prerequisite' not 'special prerequisite'.

So it could easily mean you can't create magical weapons whose "+" or "total special ability equivalent +'s" are more than three times your caster level.

The FAQ specifies that the only requirements you cannot bypass are needing the crafting feat and the spell for consumables. It also specifically mentions the three times enhancement prerequisite as an example of things that can be bypassed.


Ah indeed it is specifically mentioned. Now my character in rise of the runelords can make a +5 weapon at 7th level and I have a FAQ to point too.


I had mentioned in another thread the idea of toning this back a little, by making the level bypass scale. +3DC/level you are lacking. Seems a little more acceptable.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I highly recommend the Focused Overseer feat. It will allow you to craft your gear at 1/8 its market value. Stacking it with various traits and other abilities I have been able to get as much as a 92.5% savings on item crafting. (See this thread for more details.)

Suddenly, gold isn't such a limiting factor anymore.


D20pfsrd wrote:
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a 1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.

As I read this The level prerequest cannot be bought off with +5 DC...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

I highly recommend the Focused Overseer feat. It will allow you to craft your gear at 1/8 its market value. Stacking it with various traits and other abilities I have been able to get as much as a 92.5% savings on item crafting. (See this thread for more details.)

Suddenly, gold isn't such a limiting factor anymore.

I'm extremely surprised that you can apply these feats to crafting specific gear (be it weapons, armor, rings, etc) rather than abstract capital such as "Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic". I'm not familiar with the source, but if it really allows that to happen, then it is seriously broken, and not RAI.

Also, the limit of +1 per 3 levels of crafter seems like a hard limit in the "special prerequisite". It isn't clear whether you can bypass a "special prerequisite" by adding +5 to the crafting DC.


If any GM is actually worried about this, simply do not allow "Take 10" and everything is much more reasonable. The DCs were not designed with Take 10 in mind at all.

As for the OP - with all those choices dedicated to crafting, that is all quite reasonable.

Splendor wrote:
Ah indeed it is specifically mentioned. Now my character in rise of the runelords can make a +5 weapon at 7th level and I have a FAQ to point too.

You certainly can, although Good luck getting the gold and uninterrupted time together :)

Bacon66, Wheldrake: Read the FAQ that Chaoseffect links to. It *very clearly* allows bypassing the "special prerequisite". It's not really that special, it's simply not found in the usual place because there is no weapon entry with crafting requirements for a generic "+1 weapon, +2 weapon".


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Wheldrake wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

I highly recommend the Focused Overseer feat. It will allow you to craft your gear at 1/8 its market value. Stacking it with various traits and other abilities I have been able to get as much as a 92.5% savings on item crafting. (See this thread for more details.)

Suddenly, gold isn't such a limiting factor anymore.

I'm extremely surprised that you can apply these feats to crafting specific gear (be it weapons, armor, rings, etc) rather than abstract capital such as "Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic". I'm not familiar with the source, but if it really allows that to happen, then it is seriously broken, and not RAI.

Also, the limit of +1 per 3 levels of crafter seems like a hard limit in the "special prerequisite". It isn't clear whether you can bypass a "special prerequisite" by adding +5 to the crafting DC.

I would be terribly surprised if it wasn't RAI in this instance, as the RAW reads very clearly in this case. The downtime rules clearly state that you can put magic capital towards the crafting COST of magical items. This feat let's you earn magic capital for 25gp each, and then turn around and apply it towards creation costs at 100gp per point applied.

And I don't think it's broken either. The real balancing factor is that you have to spend additional downtime days earning the capital in the first place. An item that could be crafted in a day or three may take a month to save up for the necessary capital to see this kind of savings.

It is an absolutely terrific option if you are a time traveler, have a lenient GM who isn't stingy with downtime, or are playing Kingmaker.


Bacon666 wrote:
D20pfsrd wrote:
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a 1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
As I read this The level prerequest cannot be bought off with +5 DC...

Read the FAQ linked above. It is specifically mentioned as bypassable.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
blahpers wrote:
Bacon666 wrote:
D20pfsrd wrote:
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a 1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
As I read this The level prerequest cannot be bought off with +5 DC...
Read the FAQ linked above. It is specifically mentioned as bypassable.

Unless you are making constructs. Ultimate Magic makes it absolutely clear that you cannot forgo the Caster Level requirement for constructs even with the +5 DC option.


Ravingdork wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Bacon666 wrote:
D20pfsrd wrote:
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a 1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
As I read this The level prerequest cannot be bought off with +5 DC...
Read the FAQ linked above. It is specifically mentioned as bypassable.
Unless you are making constructs. Ultimate Magic makes it absolutely clear that you cannot forgo the Caster Level requirement for constructs even with the +5 DC option.

Yeah, that's annoying. Not because of the restriction, but because it makes an already-complicated rule set more complicated by introducing yet another "exception to the exception to the rule".


CraziFuzzy wrote:
(charging them for it, of course).

Protip: charge them at least twice what it costs you to make stuff.

So if your costs are 25% you can charge them 50%: they get a discount and you get extra gold to craft even more stuff.

Had an artificer in a party once. With the discounts we were still barely keeping up with Wealth By Level (not GM discretion, the dungeon was actually written that way). The extra gold went into making a clay golem (at 4th, yeah, if it went crazy it would have murdered us), various scrolls, wands, and other things. That stuff saved our bacon on a dozen occasions.


My intention was to charge them 75% of base price, where crafting cost is 50%, so they are saving 25%, and I'm earning very well. Make up for the craft focused character being rather gimped in other areas.

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