May I ask for your advice about how to run a mythic game?

[Yuugasa]

Hello all! I am soon going to be GMing a game of Pathfinder with the Mythic Rules.
I've only recently started to get a good handle on the Pathfinder rules and I have never
played a mythic game before. My group has been clamoring for it though and I
have a good story in my head for it.

While thematically and story wise I have full confidence in my ability to run this game
game balance wise I have no confidence at all. I have implemented hero
points in my regular games because I've learned I am not very good at eyeballing how
difficult an encounter will be for my parties. Some combat encounters seem to go well
but others end with either the PCs steamrolling the enemies or being steam rolled in turn.
I have no problem with PCs insta winning but the tpk is rather less desirable, though
they are rare in normal games and hero points save the PCs.

My question to the paizo community: While I have read all the advice in the Mythic book
do you guys have any additional advice about how to run a mythic game? Including balancing
combat encounters, things I should be aware of about how the mythic rules change the gameplay,
and any commonly encountered surprises I might not be fully aware of until I'm in the game?

Thank you for your time!

[KenderKin]

I may be far off, but we used to call games over 20th level epic.

And they were!

But imho the reason was our PCs and all those levels getting there!
I don't think I would ever just.start a game at that point.....

I guess my advice is run them through an entire AP and then lead them into mythic adventures!

[Bandw2]

for those who don't really know what mythic is: bloop

[Yuugasa]

Are the Mythic rules not that commonly used perhaps?

[Seannoss]

I don't like the mythic rules but one of it's strengths is the fact it can be used at any level. My suggestion is to go slow so you know your parties strengths and weaknesses. The mythic rules build upon itself very easily and it doesn't take long for damage and abilities to get very high.

[Nearyn]

So far there's only been one adventure path published that use the Mythic Rules, as far as I'm aware. I cannot give much advice, as I've not played in a Mythic game myself.

The AP in question is called Wrath of the Righteous.

-Nearyn

[stuart haffenden]

OK so the book says that two mythic levels is about the same as one extra regular level so a fighter 10/mythic whatever 2 is a CR 11 but in my experience each mythic tier is worth more than half a level.
I would assume each tier is 1 extra CR.
Use the normal CR system with your adjusted CR's to create encounters and go from there if you need to make any adjustments - these will depend on your players ability to powergame or their system-mastery.
This way, if anything, you'll be slightly under challenging them - but that's a better way to start off! Make sure the PC'S gain at least 2 regular levels between mythic tiers - basically do it slowly so you can gauge how your players deal with the mythic monsters.

[Craig Bonham 141]

Understand that Mythic really needs to be kept in your hands. YOU are the one who decides how to introduce it and what to allow. My first mythic game the DM handed out all mythic powers, made all choices in regards to paths, powers and feats that we achieved from mythic events. And it was very fun. Less a "how do I really trick this mythic hero out" and more "wow, so that's what happens when you cross the line into badassery?"

[LazarX]

Yuugasa wrote:

Are the Mythic rules not that commonly used perhaps?

They are a tertiary adjunct of the game.

I'm going to give you this piece of advice. Don't let your friends push you into something before you're ready.

If you nonetheless are that determined to run a mythic campaign. I would suggest that you run Wrath of the Righteous. It can somewhat ease you into both high level and mythic play at the same time. It puts good constraints on PC wealth and downtime which will go a long way towards keep ing your game under control.

[Cuttler]

In our game, our GM gave only one level of mythic level when we were around level 12...our power has increased dramatically.

For example, one player became Hierophant and got the Recalled blessing power. with this ...he basically got the potential to cast up to 5 additional spells of his highest power level per day!!!!!!

The mythic feats are extremely powerful also...For example, mythic spell focus increased the dc of one school by +1 but also by spending 1 mythic power (out of 5 at level 1) he could make the target reroll his saving throw twice (so basically a mythic surge= persistent spell feat free)

The GM indicated that against non mythic creature, that was a considerable boost and without any adjustment, the players may become overpowered.

I believe this is probably balanced against mythic creature, but since we are not playing WotR, we haven't meet any...

So my only recommendation is be cautious and be prepared about this power level increase....

[Dazz]

I haven't done any mythic campaigns myself (not including the one PFS scenario that gives you access to it) but I can give you one suggestion. Go slow with it--as far as I know, even Wrath of the Righteous doesn't give mythic powers until the end of the first module (level 3-4 depending on party size etc) and I would say that would be a bit early. I'm planning on running a campaign including mythic powers, and my plan is for them to get it at level 7 or so, and by the end of the campaign I probably won't give them more than 5 mythic tiers at level 15 (if they even get that many.

Mythic powers are extremely powerful, and if you have trouble building appropriate encounters this will definitely add to the difficulty. I would give them another mythic tier maybe every 3 or 4 levels while everyone gets used to it, and definitely don't feel pressured to let them get to 10 tiers by the end of the campaign--that would be like saying every campaign has to go until they hit 20th level. If it seemed like a big hit and you all can handle it, try for a quicker progression in the next campaign.

[Covent]

From my experience, Mythic is... Different.

It definitely ups the power level of the game especially if you get any kind of mythic spell casting, however it is in my opinion fun to use in some games.

In the Games where you are going for a more Golden/Silver age feel and want your heros to be truly legendary I feel that mythic is an excellent addition.

In gritty games or games that focus on the fragility of life, not so much.

In short I approve of mythic in its place like all parts of pathfinder.

For advice:

1.) Take it slow, but realize the first two mythic tiers can come quick.

2.) Realize that mythic is geometric not linear and all of the base game assumptions change, your PC's will be punching well above their level.

3.) Watch out for Mythic Vital strike, it is very very strong. If focused on it may be possible to one shot almost anything.

For example: Level 6 Mythic tier 1 Fighter wielding a greatsword.

To hit: (6 BaB + 1 Weapon Training + 1 Magic Weapon + 5 strength - 2 power attack) = +11 to hit/ +6 to hit

Damage Normal: 2d6 (+ 1 Weapon Training + 1 Magic Weapon + 7 strength + 6 Power attack) = average of 22 damage.

DPR normal (AC 19): {[(0.60*22)+(0.60*22*1*0.10)] + [(0.35 *22) + (0.35*22*1*0.10)]} = {[(14.4) + (1.44)] + [(7.7) + (0.77)]} = {[15.84] + [8.47]} = 24.31 DPR

Damage Vital Strike: 4d6 (+ 1 Weapon Training + 1 Magic Weapon + 7 strength + 6 Power attack) = average of 29 damage.

DPR Vital Strike (AC 19): (0.60*29) + (0.60*22*1*0.10) = (17.4) + (1.44) = 18.84 DPR

Damage Mythic Vital Strike: 4d6 + [( 1 Weapon Training + 1 Magic Weapon + 7 strength + 6 Power attack)*2] = average of 44 damage.

DPR Mythic Vital Strike (AC 19): (0.60*44) + (0.60*37*1*0.10) = (26.4) + (2.22) = 28.62 DPR

This is all while keeping their move actions and also not using any mythic power.

It gets much much worse when Improved and Greater Vital strike come online, multiplying the damage gained by x4 and x6 respectively. This is all due to the fact that you do not multiply by the Vital Strike modifier but by the number of damage dice rolled for that feat.

Of course this is still not as powerful as some of Mythic spellcasting, that is why I recommend simply keeping an eye on it rather than banning it outright.

Anyway I hope this helps and please have fun!

[voska66]

I found mythic just meant taking more time to create encounters. I had to be more creative. As well I find changing the reward from loot to information makes the game work better. Information can be leveraged for loot. What this gets away from is kill and loot mentality. Kill and loot is ok for time but you need more to drive a story at high level and with mythic tiers.

I like to make just killing the bad guy a worse situation. Like if you scry and fry the Wizard King dictator. The replacement is that much worse and has much more support than the old dictator. Had the players played some politics and set up their own representative thing would be much better.

[maouse]

I only introduced Mythic after an entire adventure path. If I had been doing it all along, I think the characters would have been out of hand real real real early. Mirror Dodge (3rd tier) at 3rd-6th level would be way OP.

Now, keep in mind that at about 3rd level the characters took down a giant (an NPC died due to a rock). And they have been doing some relatively epic things since, all the way through the CotCT adventure path (such as passing the tests to get into the sun tribe, etc...). There were even a few monsters high enough CR rating that they would have had about 10 tiers by now (17th level) instead of 3.

I would suggest this: #1 don't let them take the Dual Path feat (as this gives them two abilities/tier and will REALLY REALLY unbalance things). #2 DOUBLE or more all the required tier requirements if starting at low level. Remember, all they have to do to get a "trial point" is kill something 3+ CR higher than their party. Which, honestly, is the end monster in almost every adventure path module... if not 3-4 monsters IN the path module. But if they end up skipping to the end "somehow" then they'd still get a trial point... Don't forget the HP boosts (another reason not to let them get two paths....)

The first in CotCT for example has like 4 CR 4 and one CR 6 enemy. So that would be like 5 trials... BING tier 4. Too much, too soon. IMHO.

[Yuugasa]

Thank you guys, this is some very helpful advice.

[AmyGames]

@maouse
not trying to start a fight over this, just wanting to make sure information is correct
if you actually read the ability
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-feats/dual-path-mythic
it doesn't give you the Hp bonus, and it certainly doesn't give you two abilities per tier

other than that, mythic vital strike is incredibly powerful
my cavalier is going down the full chain
mounted combat becomes a lot easier in mythic, although your mount doesn't gain any abilities

mythic can be fun
mythic can be overpowered
as long as your players aren't power-gamers, you can do it

don't be afraid to challenge them
mythic makes characters A LOT less squishy
they have a lot of things they can get to increase survivability