Item creation, unlimited or 5 / day charge


Rules Questions


Hello !

I would like to get a clear statement, preferably from Paizo staff, that the base price in this guideline table is - in theory - for unlimited use, or for 5 use per day :
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/magicIt emCreation.html

in rows :

Command word Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp Cape of the mountebank
Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp2 Lantern of revealing

The first example is one use per day ( which gives you 5 uses per day if you multiply up. The second is a legacy item.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Could you clarify what your question is?


Is the Base Price in the table Command word Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp and Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp

for unlimited use per day or 5 uses per day for a spell like black tentacles, fireball, or even for invisibility ? ( Not considering the power of the item, or that the DM agrees or not, purely in theory ). By default is the price unlimited use per day, or 5 uses per day ?


Technically both as I read it. This would be because if you gave the command word item 5/day charges it wouldn't change the cost. Same goes for a use-activated item of course. This just means you decide, either at creation or when it's rolled/dropped, which one it is.

Always remember though, those are guidelines and it is up to the GM to help adjudicate and ensure someone isn't using those rules to create something that's out of line with a similar item in terms of cost.


Yes, our debate is about the strict lines of the guide, not if the item is viable or not.

Well, there are assumptions, that 5 a day in practice is unlmited, but here i would like to get a clear one or the other answer. Both cant be.


Levente Dezsi wrote:

Yes, our debate is about the strict lines of the guide, not if the item is viable or not.

Well, there are assumptions, that 5 a day in practice is unlmited, but here i would like to get a clear one or the other answer. Both cant be.

Both unlimited use items and 5/day items are priced exactly the same. You can't really get more clear than that.


So, in theory i can use 6x times a day, if i name it unlimited, but can not use it, or should be more pricey with 6 a day. What is the cost for 6 a day item ?


Levente Dezsi wrote:
So, in theory i can use 6x times a day, if i name it unlimited, but can not use it, or should be more pricey with 6 a day. What is the cost for 6 a day item ?

6/day is the same as unlimited. Anything with 5 or more uses per day costs the same.


Yes, that is what i like to get a confirmation from Paizo staff :)


What's the fixation with getting staff to confirm?


Fixation is, that my mates don't accept other forumer's "opinion" on the subject. They say 6 uses a day is 6/5 of the base price, and so on, so 10 use is double price. They state, that the guide can be read that way, 1 charge is X so 10 is 10X.


Then the GM needs to make a call. The chances of an official Paizo statement are negligible.

And should be. They have better uses for their time.


Their rules are very clear, after all.

Sczarni

Those are the base prices. CL * SL * 2000 or * 1800. These are further increased by: Uses per day in the case of those items. Duration of spell (multiplier) and (material component cost * 100) in the case of the continuous or unlimited items.

The differences in the *2000 versus the *1800 is what kind of activation it has, basically.

Command word items are * 2000 for a couple reasons: A person with UMD can "figure out" the command word and use the item without any further UMD checks (or at least a plus to them). They tend to be x/day items, so they replicate spells per day. So the cost is a little higher.

Use-activated and continuous are a little cheaper because they: actually aren't because of material cost * 100 cost (for items with material costs). Don't have the method of activation written on them. Only replicate long duration spells anyway (continuous).

For instance, you would not have a continuous "true strike" item. For two reasons: A GM would limit this to a x/day. And the spells which are "self" only are supposed to cost even more (2,4,10x is what they advise you in another book). These are supposed to be "caster only" spells so that a fighter type doesn't get to "never miss" or whatever the benefit is.

As always; new magic items must be passed by your GM. Of course, when you "happen across" a 200k +4 dancing icy burst rapier (disguised as a fan from CotCT path) it is a nice day. Throwing it into a scabbard of keen edges is a good cheap way to add that quality to it (you couldn't make a +4 keen dancing icy burst weapon, as it would be +11 total). Asking your GM if you can sell it for 100k and make a +5 Dancing Defending rapier seems like a legit question... lol. Again, put into the scabbard of keen edges for that +11 boost...


Levente Dezsi wrote:
Fixation is, that my mates don't accept other forumer's "opinion" on the subject. They say 6 uses a day is 6/5 of the base price, and so on, so 10 use is double price. They state, that the guide can be read that way, 1 charge is X so 10 is 10X.

Yes the guide can be read that way. Why on earth it would matter I don't know. If your GM is a bit anal or feels like being mean with WBL, he could give you a 10/day charged item, and call it equal to double the normal price of an unlimited use, or 5/day item. If you guys wanna run with that, fine. I see no real reason to do this though, unless for some reason your GM wishes to stick strictly to WBL guidelines, and is specifically looking for ways to screw with you guys. Thus making a command word Magic Missile (for example) item with 10/day uses equal to 3600 GP in wealth. Instead of giving you an unlimited use one for half that. This is of course by strict reading of a table that isn't meant to be read that way at all.


Levente Dezsi wrote:
Fixation is, that my mates don't accept other forumer's "opinion" on the subject. They say 6 uses a day is 6/5 of the base price, and so on, so 10 use is double price. They state, that the guide can be read that way, 1 charge is X so 10 is 10X.

The trouble is there are no rules for new prices. There are guidelines to help GMs but if your GM made a different call than what the guidelines say then why should staff answer such a question? He is doing exactly as the book suggests. If his decision is silly then calmly explain why or find a good GM.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Levente Dezsi wrote:
Fixation is, that my mates don't accept other forumer's "opinion" on the subject.

Well, be prepared to wait for at least 6 years.

We are still waiting on how Overrun works to be FAQ, and had a dev post in 2009 saying the next FAQ would cover it. That hasn't happened yet.


Thank you guys for the answers, what is WBL ? We all agree on that GM can do whatever he feels appropriate. Our GM didn't make any decisions, because this debate is not about a concrete item, which can be measured by power, or compare to other existing items, etc. It's strictly about the lines of the guide. Even here :

maouse wrote:

Those are the base prices. CL * SL * 2000 or * 1800. These are further increased by: Uses per day in the case of those items. Duration of spell (multiplier) and (material component cost * 100) in the case of the continuous or unlimited items.

Maouse is saying to increase the cost with daily use

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
maouse wrote:

Those are the base prices. CL * SL * 2000 or * 1800. These are further increased by: Uses per day in the case of those items. Duration of spell (multiplier) and (material component cost * 100) in the case of the continuous or unlimited items.

The differences in the *2000 versus the *1800 is what kind of activation it has, basically.

Command word items are * 2000 for a couple reasons: A person with UMD can "figure out" the command word and use the item without any further UMD checks (or at least a plus to them). They tend to be x/day items, so they replicate spells per day. So the cost is a little higher.

Use-activated and continuous are a little cheaper because they: actually aren't because of material cost * 100 cost (for items with material costs). Don't have the method of activation written on them. Only replicate long duration spells anyway (continuous).

For instance, you would not have a continuous "true strike" item. For two reasons: A GM would limit this to a x/day. And the spells which are "self" only are supposed to cost even more (2,4,10x is what they advise you in another book). These are supposed to be "caster only" spells so that a fighter type doesn't get to "never miss" or whatever the benefit is.

As always; new magic items must be passed by your GM. Of course, when you "happen across" a 200k +4 dancing icy burst rapier (disguised as a fan from CotCT path) it is a nice day. Throwing it into a scabbard of keen edges is a good cheap way to add that quality to it (you couldn't make a +4 keen dancing icy burst weapon, as it would be +11 total). Asking your GM if you can sell it for 100k and make a +5 Dancing Defending rapier seems like a legit question... lol. Again, put into the scabbard of keen edges for that +11 boost...

You are making a lot of confusion in your post.

1) UMD don't allow you to guess a item command word and don't give you a bonus to future UMD checks.

Knowledge (arcana) can allow you to identify an item so that, for some item, you don't have to active it blindly.

Spellcraft+detect magic allow you to discover a item command word.

2)

PRD wrote:

Command word Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp

Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp

Not the opposite as you claim.

3) Regardless from the kind of item he make, he crafter always pay the cost for a spell material components.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Levente Dezsi wrote:

Hello !

I would like to get a clear statement, preferably from Paizo staff, that the base price in this guideline table is - in theory - for unlimited use, or for 5 use per day :
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/magicIt emCreation.html

in rows :

Command word Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp Cape of the mountebank
Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp2 Lantern of revealing

The first example is one use per day ( which gives you 5 uses per day if you multiply up. The second is a legacy item.

Some useful guideline:

PRD-Ultimate Campaign wrote:

Magic Item Creation

If you have item creation feats (or access to those feats from cohorts or other NPCs), you might want to use time between adventures to craft magic items, either to create new items from scratch or add abilities to existing items. If the desired item is something out of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and you have the appropriate feats, the GM's role is mainly to approve or disapprove the creation of the item (for example, if the GM has decided that the desired item is rare, requires exotic ingredients, or is illegal or forbidden where the downtime takes place). If there is a chance for you to accidentally create a cursed item by failing the skill check by 5 or more, the GM should roll the check in secret so you don't know whether or not the item is cursed.

If you want to create an entirely new type of item (such as a ring that allows you to cast acid arrow three times per day) or add properties to an existing item (such as adding the flaming property to a holy avenger), the process is more complex and requires discussion and cooperation between you and the GM. The following sections address common concerns and problems about magic item creation.

Pricing New Items

The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions.

Example: Rob's cleric wants to create a heavy mace with a continuous true strike ability, granting its wielder a +20 insight bonus on attack rolls. The formula for a continuous spell effect is spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp, for a total of 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica, the GM, points out that a +5 enhancement bonus on a weapon costs 50,000 gp, and the +20 bonus from true strike is much better than the +5 bonus from standard weapon enhancement, and suggests a price of 200,000 gp for the mace. Rob agrees that using the formula in this way is unreasonable and decides to craft a +1 heavy mace using the standard weapon pricing rules instead.

Example: Patrick's wizard wants to create bracers with a continuous mage armor ability, granting the wearer a +4 armor bonus to AC. The formula indicates this would cost 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica reminds him that bracers of armor +4 are priced at 16,000 gp and Patrick's bracers should have that price as well. Patrick agrees, and because he only has 2,000 gp to spend, he decides to spend 1,000 gp of that to craft bracers of armor +1 using the standard bracer prices.

Some new items are really existing magic items with a different weapon or armor type, such as a dagger of venom that is a rapier instead of a dagger or a lion's shield that's a wooden shield instead of a metal shield. For these items, just replace the price of the nonmagical masterwork item with the cost of the new type of item. For example, a rapier of venom has a price of 8,320 gp instead of the dagger of venom's price of 8,302 gp.


Yes, exactly, so "Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions."

Is it unlimited by default or 5 a day by default ? :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

WBL is Wealth By Level, specifically the table on page 399 of the CRB (for player characters) and the one on page 454 of the CRB (for heroic and basic NPCs).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Levente Dezsi wrote:

Yes, exactly, so "Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions."

Is it unlimited by default or 5 a day by default ? :)

The problem is that you can't get a reply that is always valid.

To make some example:
- The constant Shield shirt crafted using the guidelines for constant effects is clearly a not allowed item (it should be priced on the basis of the AC bonus it give, plus the protection from magic missiles that should cost more than a brooch of shielding that use no spaces).
- Use activated? No again, you can't use activate this kind of item.
- command word with 5 uses/day? For 1.800 gp? It is a under priced item. Compare it with a wand with the shield spell, the item require a standard action to activate it, the wand a standard action + a UMD check if you haven't shield in your spell list, and that UMD check can fail with a roll of 1 and stop the wand from working for 24 hours. Add that you can draw a wand as part of your movement or as a move action (but not with quickdraw) but putting it away is a move action that provoke, and you will see how 1.800 gp and a body slot against 750 gp and a wand is a bargain.

- constant Endure elements shirt. A few items do that, generally with added effect. I think that no one will bat an eye at it.

As you see it is impossible to give a correct answer without checking every spell, a prohibitive endeavour.

- * -

5 uses vs 6 uses. I would have you pay more. If you feel that you will benefit from having access to a item powers more than 5 times in a day it mean that the item is more valuable for you if it has more uses. And if we weren't pricing the item that way it would mean that 5+ uses in a day is the equivalent of unlimited uses.

Note that there are items that work that way. to cite two, the ring of invisibility or the ring of feather falling can be both activated an unlimited number of times in a day.


Diego Rossi wrote:


5 uses vs 6 uses. I would have you pay more. If you feel that you will benefit from having access to a item powers more than 5 times in a day it mean that the item is more valuable for you if it has more uses. And if we weren't pricing the item that way it would mean that 5+ uses in a day is the equivalent of unlimited uses.

That means, the base price is for 5 uses / day. Because you apply charges by default, aka 5 uses worth x, than if 6 is more useful, the price goes up. Is this the strict lines of the table ? Try to abstract from concrete items. My friends saying the items with unlimited uses are "legacy" items.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Looking Ultimate equipment

PRD wrote:

Glowing Glove

Price 2,000 gp; Aura faint universal; CL 1st; Weight—

The wearer of this slender white leather glove may, as a standard action, press it against any surface or object and cause a luminous handprint to appear. This print glows any color the wearer wishes, sheds light as a candle, and is easily visible from a distance of up to 60 feet. Such handprints last for 1 day before fading away. The glowing handprint matches the wearer's hand in terms of size, position of fingers, and so on.

Construction Requirements

Cost 1,000 gp

Craft Wondrous Item, arcane mark

A mix of arcane mark and light, with unlimited daily uses, use activated, not legacy.

I think there are a few other items like this, but usually only low level powers have unlimited uses in the day.


Thank you for the example. I'm on the side of the default unlimited use. My reasons are, that the daily limitation is in the Special part of the table, and from there there is even a direct implication at the charges part, that "1/2 price of the unlimited base price" which is not "1/2 of the daily 5 uses per day base price". And completely agree on other factors, and examine every item, compare to other existing, etc.

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