My Shovel-Fighter concept revisited


Advice


So I have been pouring thru as many sources as I have access to because I really want to create my shovel-fighter type PC. He will be a half-orc with his main weapon being a shovel. My issue is that I really want him to crank out the damage so I came up with a combination of fighter / barbarian. My issue is that I am looking for archtypes that will help me maximize damage. I am going to give a trait that gives him Use Magic Devise as a skill so I can buy wands of Enlarge Person and Lead Blades. I chose Titan Mauler as one archtype (for when I get an oversized shovel) and at first the two handed fighter archtype...but here is where the issue begins. One of my feats will be catch off guard, one of my traits will be surprise weapon (+@ to hit with improvised weapons), and later on I will take improvised weapon mastery. The problem is that in the equipment books it says if a shovel is used as a weapon then treat it as a ONE HANDED improvised weapon that does damage equal to a club of its size. That makes the two handed fighter archtype with my shovel usage pointless. HOWEVER, in the Pathfinder Roleplaying reference document it mentions two types of shovels.

Shovel

This tool lets you dig a pit at a rate of 2 cubic feet per minute. If a shovel is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of it's size.

But here is the second type of shovel mentioned...

FOLDING SHOVEL: A folding shovel is a FULL-SIZED shovel with a study sectional handle that folds into pieces no longer that the shovel blade, allowing it to fit into a smaller space such as a backpack. Converting the shovel from its folded state to suable (or vice versa) is 2 full round actions.

So my question to all the Pathfinders stat crunchers and bright minds out there is how can I take my shovel concept to a level where he will do good damage? What archtypes and feats would you suggest?

His stats will be - Strength - 18, Dex - 14, Con - 14, Int. - 8, Wis - 12, Cha - 10 (yes, I want him to be a bit slwo witted but still moderately likable ).

Scarab Sages

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You could use a Monk's Spade instead. It's a Martial weapon, it actually is a shovel, and it's a double weapon.

Shadow Lodge

Rene Alfonso wrote:
The problem is that in the equipment books it says if a shovel is used as a weapon then treat it as a ONE HANDED improvised weapon that does damage equal to a club of its size. That makes the two handed fighter archtype with my shovel usage pointless.

Why?

If you take Catch Off Guard at 1st level, you can buy a large shovel and swing at -2 to hit. That's a two-handed weapon for your archetype.

A medium one-handed weapon becomes a two-handed weapon for a medium creature when it is a size large item. There doesn't seem to be anything in the Two-Handed Fighter archetype that restricts this. You just swing at -2.

I don't know what a size large shovel would cost. Maybe 2x medium shovel price?

The weakness of these plans is that a size Large shovel only deals 1d8 base damage. That and the -2 attack penalty will put you a little behind for a while.


Since the shovel is a one-handed weapon (not light), you can put two hands on it to treat it as a two-handed weapon. The die and crit range don't increase, but you get to use 1.5x STR and the two-handed Power Attack bonus.

Then, if you need to use one hand for something else, just take a hand off of it. You'll still threaten, because the weapon is a one-handed weapon.


Tomos wrote:
Rene Alfonso wrote:
The problem is that in the equipment books it says if a shovel is used as a weapon then treat it as a ONE HANDED improvised weapon that does damage equal to a club of its size. That makes the two handed fighter archtype with my shovel usage pointless.

Why?

If you take Catch Off Guard at 1st level, you can buy a large shovel and swing at -2 to hit. That's a two-handed weapon for your archetype.

A medium one-handed weapon becomes a two-handed weapon for a medium creature when it is a size large item. There doesn't seem to be anything in the Two-Handed Fighter archetype that restricts this. You just swing at -2.

I don't know what a size large shovel would cost. Maybe 2x medium shovel price?

The weakness of these plans is that a size Large shovel only deals 1d8 base damage. That and the -2 attack penalty will put you a little behind for a while.

OMG!! You are right and with my Surprise Weapon trait it absorbs the penalty of the oversized weapon!!! Plus I just looked up the 2 handed fighter archtype and the weapon training changes to a generic two handed weapon category. Plus I toss in my Improvised Weapon mastery feat, wands of enlarge person and lead blades and the damage and fun could reach ridiculously awesome levels. I will buy a Large Folding Shovel and eventually enchant the heck out of it and gear my feats towards it's usage in combat. Thanks alot. I appreciate it.


Lol. Love this idea dude, seriously. Let us know how it turns out.

Also... Shovel Knight?


Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Lol. Love this idea dude, seriously. Let us know how it turns out.

Also... Shovel Knight?

Well the plan is to go fighter archtype - two handed fighter combined with barbarian archtype titan mauler and then one level of ranger with freebooter archtype. The Surprise Weapon trait is solid gold for my idea - when I saw it I was floored. I am gonna start with a large folding shovel (I will pay double the standard cost). Other stuff includes gloves of dueling, putting the furious enchantment on my shovel, making it adamantium, wands of enlarge person and lead blades, raging brutality feat, and improvised weapon mastery feat to just name a few things.

The backstory is that he comes from an orphanage that exists on the outskirts of a major Andoran city called Mama Shaquittas Orphanage for Wayward Youths (it is outside of the city because of it's unique inhabitants). The woman running it..Mama Shaquitta...is a retired human bard/cleric of Shelyn the goddess of love. Mama Shaquitta's orphanage is unique - it's composed of a small group of undesireable race creatures like goblins, kobolds, hobgoblins, and other normally dangerous unstable violent races but individual members who have been influenced by Mama Shaquitta and are trying to reform themselves. Mama Shaquitta teaches them to learn job skills that would make them beneficial to society and tries to steer them away from the qualities of their race that make them undesirable. My PCs name will be Sigfried Grubbles and his greatest skill is that he considers himself one of the worlds greatest shovelers. He grew fascinated with the shovel as a weapon when he was cleaning out the basement of the orphanage and came across a large shovel. Mama Shaquitta explained that it was left over from her late husband (a former Pathfinder himself and a ranger ) as part of the treasure horde he collected over his career. Sigfried legitimately sees Mama Shaquitta as his real mom and he is proud to be a "mamas boy". Before every adventure that starts out in Andoran Mama Shaquitta always awaits Sigfried to give him a bagged lunch and some wise advice before heading off to whatever danger awaits.

I got the idea from the character named the Shoveler from the movie "The Mystery Men" played by the great actor William H Macy. I think the character willbe hilariously entertaining yet effective in combat and I think I got the right combo now. His motto is "The gods gave me a gift. I shovel well. I shovel damn well." a line almost straight out of the movie. Thanks for the vote of confidence. :)

Shadow Lodge

Sigfried must name his shovel.

Sadly, the base damage he will do with a shovel will not be incredible; if he uses Enlarge Person and Lead blades, it goes: 1d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6
Not terrible, but not awesome either. It is a good thing that you are focusing on Two-Handed Fighter because it will help boost your static damage to respectable levels. Maybe he dips for one level of Barbarian?

What weapon group would a shovel fit into? Two-Handed?

Liberty's Edge

It would be best to get with you GM and design an exotic shovel weapon that fits your concept. It could be something as simple as "Reinforced Steel Shovel" The logic issue with using the same improvised weapon and becoming an expert in it is, that really isn't improvised anymore. It's a weapon you practiced with. It is the same as the actor Jackie Chan. A ladder to most anyone else is improvised, but he is actually quite skilled in them.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Don't forget your backup spade!

Grand Lodge

Why would a medium, or large sized shovel have different penalties?

When used as improvised weapons, they have the exact same penalty.

So, if it's a small shovel, medium shovel, or large shovel, you still only take a -4 penalty.


Tomos wrote:

Sigfried must name his shovel.

Sadly, the base damage he will do with a shovel will not be incredible; if he uses Enlarge Person and Lead blades, it goes: 1d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6
Not terrible, but not awesome either. It is a good thing that you are focusing on Two-Handed Fighter because it will help boost your static damage to respectable levels. Maybe he dips for one level of Barbarian?

What weapon group would a shovel fit into? Two-Handed?

Actually the damage scales as follows:

Large shovel - 1d8
Improvised Weapon Mastery - bumps it to 2d6 and a crit range of 19-20
Enlarged Person bumps it to 3d6
Lead blades bumps it to 4d6
At least this is the concept as I understand it.

And yes I am going barbarian....6 levels of Titan mailer
The two handed fighter archtype changes the weapon group bonuses
To weapon group two handed weapons so ethnically the large shovel counts as
a two handed weapon based on my feats, size and the way I am using it.

Grand Lodge

Improvised Weapons do not fall into any Fighter Weapon Group.


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Imbicatus wrote:
You could use a Monk's Spade instead. It's a Martial weapon, it actually is a shovel, and it's a double weapon.

Also, just because I have to nit pick (big lover of Wu Xia films here).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk%27s_spade

No, it's not a shovel. Not after a certain point anyway. Which is where I assume PF's version sits.

------

Yeah, no, love that back story man. Almost fell out of my chair at it. I'm dying to hear how the game runs with him in it.

Should've figured the Shoveler. Love that freaking movie.

Shadow Lodge

Rene Alfonso wrote:


Actually the damage scales as follows:

Large shovel - 1d8
Improvised Weapon Mastery - bumps it to 2d6 and a crit range of 19-20
Enlarged Person bumps it to 3d6
Lead blades bumps it to 4d6
At least this is the concept as I understand it.

And yes I am going barbarian....6 levels of Titan mailer
The two handed fighter archtype changes the weapon group bonuses
To weapon group two handed weapons so ethnically the large shovel counts as
a two handed weapon based on my feats, size and the way I am using it.

I did not catch that about Improvised Weapon Mastery. Nice!

It's still a little behind its peers, but strong enough.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why would a medium, or large sized shovel have different penalties?
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Improvised Weapons do not fall into any Fighter Weapon Group.

I didn't think of that. It's not inappropriately sized, it's just a big shovel. The UE shovel entry says it does damage equal to a club. I must have misread it to say it's treated as a club.

This works much better for Rene then.


dot

Grand Lodge

Breaker Barbarian is a better choice here.

You can still go with both, and it will sync nicely.

Shadow Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Breaker Barbarian is a better choice here.

You can still go with both, and it will sync nicely.

I agree that Breaker is a better choice.

Did you mean that Breaker and Titan Mauler can go together?
Both replace Fast Movement and Trap Sense.

Grand Lodge

I meant Barbarian/Fighter.

Shadow Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
I meant Barbarian/Fighter.

Yeah that would be nasty.


Sorry for bad news, but pretty sure 2 handed fighter weapon training doesn't create a generic 2 hand group. It says it's as normal weapon training but restricted to 2hand melee weapons. So, still have to choose axes or heavy blades or polearms, but you get no bonus to the smaller weapons. Also, as it says two handed weapons, as opposed to while wielding a weapon in two hands, it may not apply when wielding a 1handed weapon in both hands.

On top of that, your GM might not allow an improvised weapon to be enchanted as a weapon, or rule that once that happens it's no longer considered improvised. I wouldn't agree, but i've seen that used to shut down similar ideas a couple of times now.

Fun idea though, i love improvised weapons.

Grand Lodge

Overhand Chop still works.

So, as a dip, it's decent.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Overhand Chop still works.

So, as a dip, it's decent.

Well if two handed fighter archtype does not work then I can go with the Weapon Master archtype. The Weapon Master archtype also has weapon training but not for a specific group of weapons but for a specific weapon itself. The damage would dip a little but it would make more sense since he is obsessed with a shovel as a weapon.

Grand Lodge

Any kind of Fighter Weapon Training would not work with improvised weapons.

So, it really does not matter if you choose an archetype, with a variant Weapon Training, as none will apply to improvised weapons.

Sczarni

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The Rough and Ready trait lets you treat any tools of your trade as actual weapons AND gives you a +1 to hit with them. You wouldn't need Catch Off-Guard at all, but you'd still need one rank in a Craft or Profession that involves shoveling. Profession(ditch-digger)?

Then again, if you really want to be able to hit flat-footed AC, you may be better off with Catch Off-Guard. Since Rough and Ready makes a shovel "not improvised" for you, you wouldn't get Imp. Weapon Mastery either. That saves you a couple of feats, but loses you the 19-20/x2 crit range.


I've been working on a similar concept with a pitchfork wielding farmer, built as a barbarian. The rough and ready trait is key in my eyes. Although, I never did consider the improvised weapon mastery line.


Black Powder Chocobo wrote:
Don't forget your backup spade!

That scene went from mildly interesting to hilarious for me when he pulled out the gardening spade. :D

"We've got a date with Destiny - and it looks like she's ordered the lobster."


rough and ready trait + surprise weapon trait

makes you count as having catch off-guard for a list of objects (including the shovel), and gives you +2 to attacks with improvised weapons

build character feats/abilities as normal. no funny business.

Grand Lodge

Monk of the Empty Hand is another option.

Take the Enlightened Warrior trait, and go into Breaker Barbarian after the one level dip into Monk of the Empty Hand.

The Exchange

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Tomos wrote:

Sigfried must name his shovel.

I say just call a spade "Aspade"....narffff....


Get more Ranger levels. Pick a nice animal companion.
Seriously though - dotted for concept-awesomeness :D


I like the idea of the Rough and Ready trait. I might pick that one to go along with my Surprise Weapon trait. That would give me a +3 bonus to hit with my Shovel. I could still use Weapon Master and choose hammers as my Weapon Training ( Sigfried carries around the broken handle of one of the first normal sized shovels he ever used out of a sense of nostalgic affection ) which is essentially a club weapon. The only issue is that I would have to give up my trait which gives me UMD as a class skill. I will be using UMD to activate my wands of lead blades and enlarge person. The alternative to this is to buy the wands anyway and have a fellow party member activate it for me if they have the appropriate roll of UMD or class.

And Silent Saturn...you read my mind. I gave him 1 rank in Profession: Shoveler but I could easily change it to Ditch Digger if it needs to be more specific. The background of the shovels origin is that Mama Shaquitta's late husband found the shovel in the horde of a fire giant. Sigfried had it painted crimson and the name "Big Red" engraved on the spade part of it. :)

Shadow Lodge

This keeps getting better and better.

Grand Lodge

According to a number of spell components, there are quite a few miniature shovels out there.

Keeping them on hand, to use as darts, is another option.

Also, as far as magical shovels are concerned, the Burglar's Buckler, and Traveler's Any-Tool can be Shovels.

Honestly, I would prefer a Mattock, or Anchor focused PC myself, but this seems cool too.

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