Goblin Squad Member
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We want you to help us decide how to prioritize the many potential features we could be creating for Pathfinder Online. To help us decide what areas of the project should be improved and in what order. We want your ideas about cool features and content that could be built for the game. We want you to tell us when something isn't working the way you want it to work and suggest ideas to make it work better.
Bolded Emphasis is mine.
Feel free to discuss why new player races should or should not be added to the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As long as they are properly balanced (entailing either staying away from high RP races, or having a coherent system to balance their inherent power over base races), I see absolutely no reason not to steadily add non-core races.
That said, should it be an early focus? No. This falls quite strictly into 'nice to have'. Maybe when the art/assets team have downtime, no?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it's the idea that races suggested must be a certain alignment, I'm unsure where that idea came about. A fair number of even the core races say things like typically, most, or many and never words like always. If we take they should be as they must be then even the gnome is out of the running. As their description is that gnomes are usually neutral good. The same is true for Half-Orcs that says most are Chaotic neutral, there is not one instance that I found of any proposed race that says all members of this race must always be x alignment.
Edit: Dancey did not say we only want ideas that we can implement right now, he said we want ideas with no qualifier. I would be fine with adding in races at a later date, when it is fitting to. If the voting is only about features that need to be in right this second, then I'm unsure if this voting is serving its stated purpose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As long as they are properly balanced (entailing either staying away from high RP races, or having a coherent system to balance their inherent power over base races), I see absolutely no reason not to steadily add non-core races.
That said, should it be an early focus? No. This falls quite strictly into 'nice to have'. Maybe when the art/assets team have downtime, no?
Read the bolded portion of the first comment. If the developers want cool ideas, I will collect them and deposit them on the website just as he asked. It doesn't take much to re-skin something and a majority of the races are just Re-skinnings. (Cash shop items, again Goblinworks, there is money here)
Blegh. Swarms of different races just cheapen the core. Making it something you can purchase helps, but that in turn becomes goofy as playing a different race becomes a mark of status.
I've never been a fan of having many races available. I do it in tabletop because no matter how many options there are, only a max of six can be chosen, and most tabletoppers have the sense to play humans or other "common" races. In an MMO, though, assuming your fellow players have any sense is a big mistake.
I would rather races be kept purely core. I'm not a fan of any other races being available, but if they must be, I'd vote Bestiary 1 only. Goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, tieflings/aasimar, tengu. None of the silliness from Bestiary 2 onwards.
Not that I hate all the races from Bestiary 2 and beyond. I just think there were too many. Tons of planetouched, sparkleys...bringing every single Pathfinder race ever will create a kitchen sink style.
/Blegh.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would be fine with them lowering any advantages that other races have to be more equal and in line with whatever bonuses they assign to the current race list. It's not about being OP, as it it the ability to have more options, where a decent amount of the races such as Drow are just reskins and turning an elf purple.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Blegh. Swarms of different races just cheapen the core. Making it something you can purchase helps, but that in turn becomes goofy as playing a different race becomes a mark of status.
I've never been a fan of having many races available. I do it in tabletop because no matter how many options there are, only a max of six can be chosen, and most tabletoppers have the sense to play humans or other "common" races. In an MMO, though, assuming your fellow players have any sense is a big mistake.
I would rather races be kept purely core. I'm not a fan of any other races being available, but if they must be, I'd vote Bestiary 1 only. Goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, tieflings/aasimar, tengu. None of the silliness from Bestiary 2 onwards.
Not that I hate all the races from Bestiary 2 and beyond. I just think there were too many. Tons of planetouched, sparkleys...bringing every single Pathfinder race ever will create a kitchen sink style.
/Blegh.
To pull a cliche out of my helm.
Variety is the spice of life.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure how different races cheapen anything, the core races are pretty bland and your standard RPG fare, beyond gnomes there is very little that differentiate the core races of Pathfinder vs the core race of any other fantasy system.
There is the potential to create unique stories through race, look at some of the old UO players. They didn't have the option so to speak of playing Orcs, but they went out, got the gear that made them look like Orcs and created wonderful rp stories that are still talked about. Unique races lead to wonderful storytelling, and add more depth to some of those companies that would like to continue that trend.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As long as they are properly balanced (entailing either staying away from high RP races, or having a coherent system to balance their inherent power over base races), I see absolutely no reason not to steadily add non-core races.
That said, should it be an early focus? No. This falls quite strictly into 'nice to have'. Maybe when the art/assets team have downtime, no?
Read the bolded portion of the first comment. If the developers want cool ideas, I will collect them and deposit them on the website just as he asked. It doesn't take much to re-skin something and a majority of the races are just Re-skinnings. (Cash shop items, again Goblinworks, there is money here)
I'd challenge this, gently. Work is work is work, and just because something only requires time from the art team doesn't make it trivial. This needs to be balanced against other priorities.
But really, too much of my post was qualifiers and hedging. Let me clarify;
Yes. More core races: Yes. Non-core races: Yes. All aspects of game design and timing aside, giving people more character creation options is always a good thing.
the core races are pretty bland
If you rely on a race for flavor, you're doing it wrong. That being said, the core races are plenty interesting if you use them right.
And that's really the core reason I hate tons and tons of different races. The more you have, the less imagination people tend to show.
I already said I'd be relatively okay with hobgoblins and the like. It's introducing races who would never have any reason to show up otherwise that I dislike. Catfolk, oreads, dhampirs—they're all silly species with essentially no relevance except "Tommy here wants to play a catgirl!".
"More races" is the crutch of the lazy roleplayer. It's a pet peeve of mine, in case you can't tell. :P
I'd rather have options for twenty-three different types of scarring, facial hair, and body shape than twenty-three different races I only get if I pay five bucks. There will always be room to improve on character customization between the races we've already got. Ultimately, anything more than recolorings will hurt customization more than it will help it.
Plus, what happens when everybody decides ifrits are the coolest and every fifth guy you see has flames for hair? It gets pretty damn un-immersive.
Oh my god did another me just step into the room? Because I just heard stuff that is exactly what I said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather have options for twenty-three different types of scarring, facial hair, and body shape than twenty-three different races I only get if I pay five bucks. There will always be room to improve on character customization between the races we've already got. Ultimately, anything more than recolorings will hurt customization more than it will help it.
Plus, what happens when everybody decides ifrits are the coolest and every fifth guy you see has flames for hair? It gets pretty damn un-immersive.
The same thing when every fifth dude is an Elf, or a gnome I suppose? Not much changes in that regard, if the majority of people go with one race, then it's pretty darn un-immersive regardless of which race it is.
*Starts running at mirror like one of those fish or I think some birds, determined to slay clone before it can slay me*
The same thing when every fifth dude is an Elf, or a gnome I suppose? Not much changes in that regard, if the majority of people go with one race, then it's pretty darn un-immersive regardless of which race it is.I'd rather have options for twenty-three different types of scarring, facial hair, and body shape than twenty-three different races I only get if I pay five bucks. There will always be room to improve on character customization between the races we've already got. Ultimately, anything more than recolorings will hurt customization more than it will help it.
Plus, what happens when everybody decides ifrits are the coolest and every fifth guy you see has flames for hair? It gets pretty damn un-immersive.
Elves and gnomes are supposed to be fairly common, though. That's the big difference. Planetouched are supposed to be pretty rare races.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elves and gnomes are supposed to be fairly common, though. That's the big difference. Planetouched are supposed to be pretty rare races.The same thing when every fifth dude is an Elf, or a gnome I suppose? Not much changes in that regard, if the majority of people go with one race, then it's pretty darn un-immersive regardless of which race it is.I'd rather have options for twenty-three different types of scarring, facial hair, and body shape than twenty-three different races I only get if I pay five bucks. There will always be room to improve on character customization between the races we've already got. Ultimately, anything more than recolorings will hurt customization more than it will help it.
Plus, what happens when everybody decides ifrits are the coolest and every fifth guy you see has flames for hair? It gets pretty damn un-immersive.
Player Characters are the exception.
So your argument is:
Adding races makes the bland races more bland and that is bad.
Adding races limits the imagination of players.So forcing someone to RP an Orc as a Half Orc when they would much rather just be an orc means they are a Lazy Roleplayer.....
Right... So no cool races because.... reasons.... Yes.
So, for the record, I'm really, really irritated right now, because people rephrasing what I say like this is kind of a red button for me. I will respond to this in the morning, when I'm less [displeased with the current happenings].
In the meantime, I suggest Deacon Wulf put more effort into reading other people's posts, because I'm not the only one who this ticks off. I'm just one of the few who won't misname it as "strawmanning".
Player Characters are the exception.
Like I said, that works great in a tabletop. Not in an MMO, where the player characters are basically everyone.
Keep bumping the thread KC. There is no publicity better than a Kobold running into a mirror.
Oh, great. I can't even be silly without dealing with passive aggression for it. Dis gon be one of those days, innit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We want you to help us decide how to prioritize the many potential features we could be creating for Pathfinder Online. To help us decide what areas of the project should be improved and in what order. We want your ideas about cool features and content that could be built for the game. We want you to tell us when something isn't working the way you want it to work and suggest ideas to make it work better.Bolded Emphasis is mine.
Feel free to discuss why new player races should or should not be added to the game.
Back to the original points.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elves and gnomes are supposed to be fairly common, though. That's the big difference. Planetouched are supposed to be pretty rare races.The same thing when every fifth dude is an Elf, or a gnome I suppose? Not much changes in that regard, if the majority of people go with one race, then it's pretty darn un-immersive regardless of which race it is.I'd rather have options for twenty-three different types of scarring, facial hair, and body shape than twenty-three different races I only get if I pay five bucks. There will always be room to improve on character customization between the races we've already got. Ultimately, anything more than recolorings will hurt customization more than it will help it.
Plus, what happens when everybody decides ifrits are the coolest and every fifth guy you see has flames for hair? It gets pretty damn un-immersive.
So are Level 20 characters, but if this game is popular enough then there will be a boatload of level 20s in some role. Point is rarity is not a qualifier for why something should or should not exist.
If rarity must be a qualifier then put it in the cash shop as cosmetic, or make it a sort of quest or achievable thing or whatever you like to make it sufficiently rare. Now I'm not for advocating giving them whatever racial super buffs they might normally have, I would prefer they tune that to balance it with the core races, and just use it as flavor. In the same regard that they are doing the racial background stuff that is already a part of the cash shop.
Well, at least with swarms of level twenties, it's justified—that kinda thing happens when nobody can die.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, at least with swarms of level twenties, it's justified—that kinda thing happens when nobody can die.
But wouldn't really rare races that are persecuted and abused and their civilizations destroyed, not simply come in droves to a land where nobody can die for some unexplained reason? I certainly would.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes. There are any number of ways to handwave flavour.
And honestly, some of us need an RP crutch. I've been playing TT games for a few years now, but I've played MMOs much longer, so my RP in MMOs (if any) tends to be the pithy sort.
And there is nothing wrong with that. But for that style, the visual shorthand identifying your race provides the context for that couple of RP lines before running away, jumping madly in boredom. Adding a wide range of races enables that, to little detriment to the hardcore RP community, I think.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It doesn't say in the core bestiary, but biggest difference imo about uncivilized races and civilized races is that uncivilized races eat the flesh of uncivilized races and civilized races or at least the flesh of civilized races, but civilized races don't eat the meat of uncivilized races or the civilized races. There might be tribes of civilized races that do eat each others flesh, but I think this is the general rule between uncivilized and civilized races. Having a lot of orcs running around with humans doesn't fit too well with the orc nature. Now if you would have a tribe of orcs only, that would be a different thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can support other races to eventually be available in PFO, but not until all of the core races are available. They will need to be balanced though so some of them would need more work.
I noticed there was a request for Templates in the Idescale site. This I'm more reluctant to have implemented. Templates are typically to powerful for normal campaigns of TT PFO which I believe also will be true for PFO. I don't use them at all unless I am running a campaign I have written specifically for those types of characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can support other races to eventually be available in PFO, but not until all of the core races are available. They will need to be balanced though so some of them would need more work.
I'll take that a step further. As new races/species are introduced, retire old ones. Nothing would make POHs (plain old humans) cooler than not being able to roll up a new one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can support other races to eventually be available in PFO, but not until all of the core races are available. They will need to be balanced though so some of them would need more work.I'll take that a step further. As new races/species are introduced, retire old ones. Nothing would make POHs (plain old humans) cooler than not being able to roll up a new one.
I am against this with every fiber of my being.
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