Goblin Squad Member
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There are some people on the boards who came to PFO from PF TT, with no background in online gaming. Let's put some recommendations together for these people to get some basic familiarity with this kind of game before EE starts.
Dark Age of Camelot is old, but still some of the best PVP of any MMO. The main adventuring areas are all non-PVP, but there are battlegrounds for every level range and the frontiers for whenever you're ready. And there's a two week free trial, and a solid tutorial which ramps into an easy leveling path. Info and client download are at darkageofcamelot.com
I think this would be a great option for someone new to MMOs to get oriented while waiting for EE to open up. Anyone have a better idea?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly, these days, I would encourage someone with no experience whatsoever to get into a MOBA game of some variety. League of Legends is easy to get into. DotA2 is a bit harder, but not too bad. Dawngate is just getting started, and is still in the newbie friendly beta stage. Playing a MOBA teaches you about area control, target management, risk assessment. All things that are important in a PvP MMORPG. The skills don't transfer over incredibly well, but it will help.
It will also help you with your game mechanics. Being able to quickly and confidently use your skills is extremely important. Mouse accuracy, camera control, reaction time can all be trained in the self-contained world of a MOBA. Every game starts out with a clean slate, so it is also extremely forgiving for new players.
Just be aware, if you are of a timid mind, that people can be real a!! h~&~s about these games. It doesn't help that the lowest levels of matchmaking, where new players start, tend to be filled with the dregs of the game. People get banned, but they make a new account, and then go through the lower levels again. They continue being toxic, get banned again, and the cycle starts anew.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you've never played an MMO: You should try out one of the free-to-play options like LOTRO. If you have time, you might try out WoW as well. This should give you a pretty good idea of how to do things like open your bags, move inventory items around, check out the stats on your gear, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm pretty sure opening your bags and moving inventory around in pvp has a lowish track record on victories.
There's other stuff like range (traditionally close up does lots of damage because of higher risk, long range does less damage but is safer) and control (stopping the other guy from doing what he wants to do while still being able to do what you want to do).
Smashy smash feats are the obvious choice in pvp, until someone hamstrings and kites around you just out of reach until you're dead. Or stuns you so you just watch your health drop unable to act. The specifics in each game vary, but the broad strokes principles stay consistent.
Pick a narrow theme and do it really well. Trying to be diverse means you're not very good at anything.
Half the battle is where you're standing.
Have a trick and a surprise so they can't be completely prepared for you, but don't get too fancy because damage dealing still solves lots of problems.
Don't forget resistances and mitigation to avoid taking damage in the first place, but also lots of health for when you do (your dps drops significantly when you're dead).
OPEN INVITATION TO OUR PVP NEWBIES
This link takes you into the belly of the Beast, EVE Online (three weeks for free, PC or Mac). Drop me a note here and do ALL the tutorials, I'll meet you in the game and start you off in high-sec friendly sparring dipping your toes in the basics and work up to the viscous bloodthirsty psychopaths Bluddwolf wants to "introduce" you to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you've never played an MMO: You should try out one of the free-to-play options like LOTRO. If you have time, you might try out WoW as well. This should give you a pretty good idea of how to do things like open your bags, move inventory items around, check out the stats on your gear, etc.
To add onto that:
Probably the most important skill you can learn for these types of MMO's in general (in my opinion anyways) is learning how to do things simultaneously. To be able to move your character to avoid danger while selecting which target is most appropriate and also deciding what skill you will use now and in the next few seconds. To be able to evaluate all the information your screen gives you more on instinct and make good choices with little actual thought. This skill can be learned in pretty much any kind of computer game which doesn't allow you to sit back and assess things. Even a fast-paced puzzle game can teach you how to make decisions on the fly and use your keyboard and mouse as more of an extension of your body.
Of course, if you learn to do such things in a game that's closer to what PfO is going to be like, you'll learn other applicable skills as well.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Fallen Earth (I think that has a free-to-play option these days as well) might also be a nice one to try. Goblinworks Lead Game Designer Lee Hammock was also a Lead Game Designer for that one (as well as working on Zenimax Elder Scrolls Online game).
Fallen Earth is also a sandbox game, and has some minor features I really liked (in a game that was generally fun to play): your mount actually stayed in the world as you got off, and there were some things like being able to wear your jackets zipped closed or hanging open. Never got into PvP in that game, though. And the colour palette of mainly browns and greys got boring after a while (I'm in favour of the brightness and diversity of WoW and Guild Wars 2, myself).
EVE isn't bad to learn a number of things either, but it lacks the direct avatar control of the other games (unless PFO also goes to the "click oponent, choose <approach> or <keep distance> or <circle around at 20 yards>, then click F1 for auto-attack" way of playing, which I somehow doubt :) ). But there's a lot of other stuff that's intriguing in that game. Note that CCP itself offers 2-week free playtime, and it's also on sale on Steam at the moment; the 3-week buddy offers from players give rewards to the offering player if you decide to sign up for a subscription (which might be a fine deal if they help you get started in EVE, as it's not all that easy to get started -- even if it's a LOT more friendly for new players than when I first tried it in 2006). There's also limited offers for 30-day trials available from third party gametime/PLEX vendors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...the colour palette of mainly browns and greys got boring after a while...
I agree with you on that point; realism isn't always entertaining. You made me realise I'd not thought about PFO needing an extensive palette of earth-and-vegetation tones, in a variety of patterns, to deal with PFO's hide-in-a-wallow-or-over-there-in-that-shrubbery stealth system.
Nothing says we can't dress like WOW in town, but I can imagine Crowdforging will run the camouflage-stuff up the desired-ladder pretty fast.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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As someone who is and active Pathfinder player, GMing, playing, in home games and Pathfinder Society Organized play. To me Pathfinder is essentially a cooperative game where the players work together to accomplish the goals the GM sets before them.
To me introducing a non consensual PVP element fundamentally changes a cooperative game to a competitive game.
And unfortunately Eve online, which appears to be a "parent game" for PFO has a reputation for encouraging a sociopathic Machiavellian atmosphere.
I am not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water, so I helped a little bit to get the tech demo off the ground.
Perhaps I am wrong about all of this so I am also wiling to to give the game a try.
Unfortunately what I mentioned earlier is the impression quite a few friends who play Pathfinder have about PFO, and many think it will simply be Eve with swords. For many the non consensual PVP element is the deal breaker.
I think these are some of the impressions, right or wrong, the pathfinder online game will have to over come in order to draw lots of Pathfinder players into the online game.
Perhaps I am wrong.
I am willing to give the game a try. We shall see how it goes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As someone who is and active Pathfinder player, GMing, playing, in home games and Pathfinder Society Organized play. To me Pathfinder is essentially a cooperative game where the players work together to accomplish the goals the GM sets before them.
To me introducing a non consensual PVP element fundamentally changes a cooperative game to a competitive game.
Your party encounters a group of bandits. They seem to have stopped and are conversing while glancing over at your group. What do you do?
Replace bandits with everything else you'll find in PfO, as appropriate. It's just a game of Pathfinder where most of the enemies are humanoids and a campaign that involves more political intrigue and less dungeon crawling (though if things go well, there should be some dungeon crawling as well).
PfO is still a cooperative game, you just aren't cooperating with the whole server.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you think of enemy players and settlements as "NPC villains run by a wickedly clever DM", playing in a PVP sandbox game is not substantively different from any tabletop campaign.
And I think if you think of the bandits as "NPC villains run by a wickedly clever DM" who also probably has several more years of experience than you in operating online characters and conducting rapid combat with keyboard and specialized input tablets without any random dice rolls to equalize those things you might have a pretty good notion how a bunch of people are feeling at the moment.
edit: It remains a fact, that there is a large group who is here because they thought they were getting into a Pathfinder Tabletop MMO experience, and a large group that is here because it's exactly the kind of meaningful PvP experience they've always been looking for.
Those two groups haven't got much in common. Poo-pooing the interests and concerns of either side is not productive.
The developers have a legitimate point that they were totally up front, and it's our own fault we didn't understand what was being built. That's not going to stop some people from feeling cheated. It behooves those who are getting almost exactly what they want to be good sports about seeing if they can provide the other group (that helped pay for it) with some of what they were expecting, without destroying the experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And I think if you think of the bandits as "NPC villains run by a wickedly clever DM" who also probably has several more years of experience than you in operating online characters and conducting rapid combat with keyboard and specialized input tablets without any random dice rolls to equalize those things you might have a pretty good notion how a bunch of people are feeling at the moment.
It's not a terribly hard set of skills to learn, and you don't have to be perfect to contribute something. If you're a reasonably coordinated person then you'll be fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're a reasonably coordinated person then you'll be fine.
Sadly, I'm not.
If I could back up a bit, I'd hopefully go "What are you thinking" and be busy doing something else right now with my money.
Again. My mistake, and I'm freely owning it. We'll see if the surgery expected in 18 months to correct the trigger finger that denies most motion in my left index finger changes anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're a reasonably coordinated person then you'll be fine.Sadly, I'm not.
If I could back up a bit, I'd hopefully go "What are you thinking" and be busy doing something else right now with my money.
Again. My mistake, and I'm freely owning it. We'll see if the surgery expected in 18 months to correct the trigger finger that denies most motion in my left index finger changes anything.
Yes Caldeathe. Best wishes for your surgery. I hope it helps. I am not injured (jury still out on brain damage :)) and I am not good at PVP. I hope that my skill will improve, but even if it never does, I feel I will add value to my settlement outside of direct PVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To me introducing a non consensual PVP element fundamentally changes a cooperative game to a competitive game....
I am willing to give the game a try. We shall see how it goes.
Well it is good that you are waiting to place final judgement until there is actually a game to play. I hope others follow that example.
About the non consensual PvP part, I believe GW stated that you should be able to escape with your character's life intact if you run away when attacked. I know it still sucks to be out exploring or gathering resources and suddenly another guy pops up and starts attacking you for no reason. That is a crappy feeling, but that won't happen as much in PFO as in other open world PvP games due to the reputation system.
As far as it being more competitive than cooperative, it was the choie between going with a themepark style MMO and a sandbox style MMO. GW has explained why they went with sandbox, and it makes sense. Just imagine PFO as what would happen if thousands of players were playing a Pathfinder Tabletop campaign that had some supercomputer AI Gamemaster. They wouldn't all cooperate all the time. There would be competition for resources, just like in real life during the medieval times.
I encourage others that have kickstarted this project that don't think it will be the game they thought it was to wait until Open Enrollment to make their final judgement. Writing it off before you even get in and play some just seems like a strange choice to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have found that the major hurdle in breaking through the barrier between exclusive PvEer and becoming an avid PvPer is mental.
First you have to lose any clinging on to gear / loot you have. Loss in PvP is frequent and all you are really losing is time you have already spent. You spent that time having fun, I would assume, so that fun is not lost by a future event. Now you will have the fun of getting your gear or loot back by some other means.
Secondly, you have to develop a good sense of your surroundings. Take note of characters you frequently see in that area. Know of their affiliations. Remember how they respond to and in PvP. Don't assume that if you beat them once, you can beat them again. Also, that works the other way around as well.
Thirdly, always remember, you are never safe. Everyone you see, especially in the wilderness is a potential attacker. This does not mean you have to attack first, and at everyone you meet.
If they were going to one-shot you, and wanted to, you'd be dead already. You don't always have to hit first to win.
For those that say, "I don't want to play a game where I have to think everyone is out to kill me". They have to lose that mentality or find a game that is not Open World PvP.
When you are the Hunter, the wolf, view your prey as simply a "target". It is just a character that has something you want. It will respawn, and perhaps might have either been entertained by the experience or at least learned something from it.
Finally, be open to chat with those that have killed you or those that you have killed. Try to play the role of teacher / student if you begin to chat with your opponent. You will most likely discover that he or she also sees the interaction for what it was intended to be.
It is just a part of the game.....
I'm going to speak in the defense of the PvP haters here: It's not the same as just fighting really smart NPCs. It's more like fighting really smart NPCs with a Game Master who laughs at you whenever you make a mistake.
Obviously, not all PvPers are like that, but it doesn't take too many to spoil the experience. PvP is generally just a bit more stressful. It's why I generally play Wussmode Offline Mode when I do TF2. ;D
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Goblin Squad Member
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"What a great way for people who are cowardly and spitefully insecure in RL to get their jollies off on a daily basis."
When I explained PFO to my players that was their response. I don't think ALL the players that will pursue PVP aggressively will fall into this motif, but a large number will. It's going to be up to decent players to look out for each other and make the game more cooperative and less antagonistic. It's also up to individual players to reach out and look for folks with a similar mindset.
I think it'll be tricky either way but it's not impossible. Going to be interesting to watch, that's for sure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm going to speak in the defense of the PvP haters here: It's not the same as just fighting really smart NPCs. It's more like fighting really smart NPCs with a Game Master who laughs at you whenever you make a mistake.
Obviously, not all PvPers are like that, but it doesn't take too many to spoil the experience. PvP is generally just a bit more stressful. It's why I generally play
WussmodeOffline Mode when I do TF2. ;D
That can definitely be a culture shock, depending on what kind of game you are playing (as people tend to flame more in specific types of games) and how much exposure in general you have had to the varieties of internet a-holes. I'm actually surprised you use TF2 as an example for people being jerks; one thing I really like about TF2 is that I almost never encounter people flaming like that, especially compared to some other games. But maybe that's just a result of tuning things out automatically.
I've dealt with a fair few pubstompers, that's for sure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just to be clear - an Offline mode would see a lot of interest from those not interested in the PvP aspect. Romping around Golarion adventuring. In 3D. Without ganking, settlement politics or rivalries.
Perhaps enough interest to equally interest GW in creating such a thing. As long as it doesn't impact on the content created for PFOnline.
PFOffline!!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The developers have a legitimate point that they were totally up front, and it's our own fault we didn't understand what was being built. That's not going to stop some people from feeling cheated. It behooves those who are getting almost exactly what they want to be good sports about seeing if they can provide the other group (that helped pay for it) with some of what they were expecting, without destroying the experience.
The developers are not just after the $$ but the time and dedication of the Kickstarters to help test and crowdforge. THere is a little leverage as GW really wants us to test this. THere are several ways that each camp can play this game. I encourage those (like myself who did not research enough to understand what PvP is) to give this a try, but be thoughtful of what you ask for. PvE will not go away. PvP will not go away. There is fundamental inequality about how some present their version of PvP (they will only pick target they know they can defeat -- that style of PvP will get boring and get perverted).
They (GW) do look to EE to test and implement ways to build a "better" environment. There are very focused PvP players say (1) GW can't do that as if that happens, (2) they will go away. That may be good as we can build a game with PvP that PF TT players can enjoy (and there is still a place for Bluddwolf and UNC). I am still a little unsure, but if you really want out, let me buy your Crowdforger subscription (with DT). Of course Morbis may offer you more money.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You really are forced to, in a way. Your settlement is surrounded by towers. If you don't take at least one, every hex around your settlement is a 24/7 consequence free pvp zone where anyone can kill your settlement members without fear of effect on alignment or reputation. So yeah, you pretty much do need to hold at least one. That is, assuming that even one of us wants to leave the hex. Which several of us who aren't going to be crafters do...You're not forced to right now. That's one of the things available to do.
You can gather and craft all day long if you like, too. Settlements are going to need players who can provide supplies much more than a couple of civic buildings from running up their tower score.
If you're not looking to leave your settlement hex, why are you concerned if the outside world is FFA PVP?
Stay in your settlement hex, and welcome those that venture out, with cheap repair costs and or low costs for replacement gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you don't take at least one, every hex around your settlement is a 24/7 consequence free pvp zone...
Please remember that's only true until *someone* takes those towers surrounding you; from then on, you're at risk only during the Open PVP window of whatever Settlement that tower's pledged to. The best course of action for a Settlement that doesn't intend to hold towers for itself--thus keeping its PVP window closed for its members--is to invite friends to come and take those towers.
I can see several ways to generate win/win by doing that, not least by having two friends, who intend different Open windows, take "your" towers. That'll ensure your members' ability to leave and travel elsewhere, by going whichever direction's safe at that moment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The best course of action for a Settlement that doesn't intend to hold towers for itself--thus keeping its PVP window closed for its members--is to invite friends to come and take those towers.
I can see several ways to generate win/win by doing that, not least by having two friends, who intend different Open windows, take "your" towers. That'll ensure your members' ability to leave and travel elsewhere, by going whichever direction's safe at that moment.
This may have been covered by either Stephen or Tork, and it sounds a bit exploitive of the system to be honest.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This may have been covered by either Stephen or Tork, and it sounds a bit exploitive of the system to be honest.The best course of action for a Settlement that doesn't intend to hold towers for itself--thus keeping its PVP window closed for its members--is to invite friends to come and take those towers.
I can see several ways to generate win/win by doing that, not least by having two friends, who intend different Open windows, take "your" towers. That'll ensure your members' ability to leave and travel elsewhere, by going whichever direction's safe at that moment.
Diplomacy is just another form of PVP and is I suspect working as intended in the eyes of the developers.
Sometimes is just not all about beating each other over the head with a stick.
Sometimes its about you be nice to us, we'll be nice to you and hey, lets both go beat this other guy over the head with a stick!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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This may have been covered by either Stephen or Tork, and it sounds a bit exploitive of the system to be honest.The best course of action for a Settlement that doesn't intend to hold towers for itself--thus keeping its PVP window closed for its members--is to invite friends to come and take those towers.
I can see several ways to generate win/win by doing that, not least by having two friends, who intend different Open windows, take "your" towers. That'll ensure your members' ability to leave and travel elsewhere, by going whichever direction's safe at that moment.
Uh oh, watch out, Bluddwolf is worried you may be exploiting a proposed game system. Don't worry Bludd, they're just testing it. Also, I'm pretty sure companies taking a tower and setting a pvp window is WoT working as intended and no one at GW will have a problem with that.
I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water. I am, however, becoming increasingly more disappointed as the developers seem to be focusing more and more on making this a pvp-happy game, as this was not what was advertised during the kickstarter. I'm certainly not going to give up on an experience before I actually get to try it
First, I love that outlook from the segment that hasn't pvp'd before. Also I never meant to imply you don't want to leave your town, but some stage of crafting is going to be the only other substantive thing to do besides pvp for a while, which is one of the attributes of a game that's still 18ish months from being finished.
I got my first MMO pvp in WoW. I was even at an extreme disadvantage gear-wise because the other side was 80% of the server and had all the top dungeons on PuG farming, which I equate to being a small group in WoT that can't hold many towers by itself. There was even a zone on the map where you could pvp to control these five towers...
Anyway, I tried it out, got smashed a few (hundred) times, started figuring out how it's different than pve, got a few successes, and came to appreciate the challenge and spontaneity of it all. Even if people won't run with the flag carrier that's the WHOLE POINT of Warsong Gulch wahy won't you run with the flag carrier?
For me, who never had a thought of pvp before I stumbled into it, it breaks down to the pvp is pretty fun but not some twerps being obsessively dunkheaded about it. Having one without the other has always been a main priority so if/when it works out that way I (and I think lots of surprised TTers) will be a happy camper. Not that I camp.
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Goblin Squad Member
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True--and at this point, that would even be necessary, since we don't have 6 Companies in Hammerfall. We would want to try to hold at least one, however, or we'll be very far behind everyone else at the end of the WotT. It's just really very grating for those of us who, in general, really don't want to be fighting other players at all.
Assuming Hammerfall holds your current position on the map you do have some neighbors who have thus far expressed a willingness to work with there neighbors.
With some diplomacy and cooperation it might not be nearly as bad as you think and you may find you have far more control over when, where and how you pvp then you think.
Also, you are getting a free, consequence free opportunity to try out pvp on your terms timewise by picking the pvp window.
Instead of looking at it as some horrible impossible ordeal try to think of it as training for the future game and a good way to practice for when it really matters.
Also you have an opportunity here. There are going to be people and companies that want nothing but pvp and don't want to be bothered with the gathering, crafting, building (i.e. pve) required to replace gear, supply consumables and build a settlement.
Talk to them, Work with them.
That ultimately is what PFO is about and sets it apart from the other MMO's, outside of Eve, that are currently out there.
The ability and need to work with other people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...the colour palette of mainly browns and greys got boring after a while...I agree with you on that point; realism isn't always entertaining. You made me realise I'd not thought about PFO needing an extensive palette of earth-and-vegetation tones, in a variety of patterns, to deal with PFO's hide-in-a-wallow-or-over-there-in-that-shrubbery stealth system.
Nothing says we can't dress like WOW in town, but I can imagine Crowdforging will run the camouflage-stuff up the desired-ladder pretty fast.
Forces of Brightness vs Earthtone Coalition...
(Btw getting money to dye my clothing in cleaner colours was my main driver for farming in Fallen Earth. Only plebs went around in default dirty grey and brown).
oops.. I seem to be completely off topic. /blame the other guys (or Cosmo).
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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When playing the Table-top has your group ever run into bandits? The only difference between Pathfinder Online and Pathfinder PnP is that the bandits are players as well.
In addition: That evil cult trying to resurrect the Whispering Tyrant? Yea, those are players as well.
Lord Regent, Thank you for taking the time to answer my concerns.
However, to me, the other bandits being other players, instead of NPCs makes a world of difference.
I have found, the few times there has been PVP, in a home table top game, this has more often then not resulted in one of the players, (usually the one with the evilly aligned character, getting defeated, and hurt upset feelings follow. Usually this is the pre curser to a player either leaving or being booted from a group.
When I have either ran the monsters for my GM, or had a player run my monsters, they are much more competative with the other players and in short, the player often goes for the PCs Jugular.
Let me give you an example of how I think a GM would handle things as opposed to a player.
In short, the party was working as a team, making good tactical choices. I was rolling more or less in the open (one player could see all of my die rolls because of where he was seated). I got a string of 18s 19s and a confirmed critical with a 20. The paladin got poisoned and while at 10 hit points, took 25 points of damage (d6s with +4 Str Mod for damage). His character at -15 and with a 16 con was very close to death. After the scorpion went last in initiative, a new round started with the paladin at the top of the initiative. The paladin failed his stabilization check. The cleric went right after him in initiative. One cure light wounds later and the paladin was stabilized. I know technically, my player's paladin would be dead, if i was sticking to the Rules as Written completely. But what would be the point of having a player with a dead character? I'm not saying I wont let my player's character's ever die, but I felt the player would be much more excited about a close shave with death then a dead character. He actually thought his character was dead, thinking that -10 killed a character as per 3.5 rules.
The sorcerer then conjured a fire beetle which attacked the scorpion. Now the Scorpion, being Neutral Hungry, I think would most likely have begun trying to eat the fallen unconscious paladin. However, I had the scorpion swivel and attack the offending bug nipping at the scorpions legs. Again I rolled a series of 19s and 20s and 18s and the scorpion killed and ate the summoned bug. This gave another character time to drag the paladin away. They brought the scorpion with a well placed backstab.
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Now my point is, in my experience if that scorpion was controlled by another player, not the GM, that paladin would have been the scorpion's lunch.
I am not saying every GM is "merciful", but I have yet to see a player who is when opposing other players.
So in short, as a GM you can often see the larger picture, then when you are another PC fighting other PCs, or a player controlling monsters. You often just see the encounter, and how to win it.
So to me the bandits being players instead of NPCs makes a world of difference and changes the dynamics of a game.
I am willing to give Pathfinder online a try. I just think, many other Pathfinder players have similar concerns and reservations about Pathfinder online because it core dynamic is PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the root is the difference between two types of people (neither of them "bad").
One type is bored by AI controlled combat, and longs to test themselves against entities that are potentially as smart and fast and canny as they are (or even more so)
The other is inherently bothered by the thought of inconveniencing another person, even in a game, and who does not get pleasure from fighting another human opponent, especially of the first sort, because they feel the other type will always be working to be better and better at soemthing they can't do.
PFOnline is designed to cater to the people who want to test themselves against other people, who want unpredictable opponents and to feel like they have truly demonstrated their right to win the combat. There isn't much that can be done to ensure the other sort of person enjoys the game, but an awareness of them helps. Making it clear that you want to struggle against people who are just as invested as you are, and that you'll probably be bored of attacking the second sort pretty quickly (but aren't going to pass up occasional booty just to keep them from pissing themselves) can also help.