Motivating our party to be a party, and distinguishing RP from in person


Advice


We have a guy who is new to table top RPG games all together running his very first game (RoTrL), and one other new player to PF, while others are pretty experienced in the system. For everyone but one player, this is our first adventure path ever, and we are normally used to playing PFS (most are knew to PFS), or playing home brew games in other systems. Right now we have two major problems that are really hurting the session we have from progressing, which is having a motivation for our characters to be a party in the game, and people constantly misunderstanding when people are in character or in person. We also have a problem with managing players jumping in while others are doing things, and players feel the attention is being sapped from them.

1. For a diverse group of characters, especially characters that seem to be more motivated by rewards rather than doing things out of the goodness of their own hearts, what are some reasonable suggestions for the GM to place into the game for the party to want to be a party? Everyone has been a lone wolf in their lives in game, and never really adventured, and finding an excuse is difficult for the players who are more role play focused than others.

We are at the very beginning of RoTrL, and we have met a few characters such as the Mayor. Perhaps someone has a basic character from the start of the game that can swoop in and organize the party to BE A PARTY?

I am reaching for as much advice and ideas as possible, and I plan to present them to my group so we can just all vote and figure out what would work best for all our characters. Keeping the integrity of the characters role playing is very important to most of us, so we are just trying to agree to something that makes sense, and then we can move forward.

2. Looking for advice on how to better distinguish player vs PC when speaking. One character in our party uses a ridiculous voice, and I will usually say "*Characters name* says/does" followed by things, and so far that works for us, but others don't do this. Other players seem to have nothing to really stand out any real difference between them and their characters, and when they start speaking, people think they're in an out of character discussion which leads to "My character is saying this... isn't yours?" and time is wasted along with people being discouraged from participating. I don't think others are comfortable with announcing those cues I mentioned before, or using a different voice, so the best/worst thing I can think of is people holding up a sign that says "IN CHARACTER", but I don't think anyone wants to do that.

3. Suggestions on how to better manage the chaos that is everyone wanting to say and do something during the game? Only a few players are assertive, and whoever speaks up first and usually whoever is the loudest will get the GM's attention while having other players feel alienated. I figure a better awareness of this issue will happen as time goes on allowing people to be naturally more considerate, but advice to help this process move along would be extremely helpful.

1-3
Anyone else have or has had these issues, and if you USED TO, then how did you get through them? Our last session ended with personal nerves flaring out with one another (due to these problems), and a lot of concern with how we are going to get things moving along in the game.

Sovereign Court

1) Talk OOC with the players, and point out that for this as a group game to work, all their characters would actually have to want to go on the adventure. So don't just try to cater to their motivations, reverse it instead. Tell them "your character has a motivation to do this, because otherwhise he wouldn't be on the adventure, and therefore he wouldn't be your PC. Now that we got that settled, what exactly IS his motivation?"

Basically, it is non-negotiable that the characters are motivated, the negotiation is about WHAT their motivation is for being a protagonist in this story.

2) Again, talk OOC first. Say that you want to encourage IC talk, so please try to address each other by IC names. Have everyone fold a piece of paper in front of them to display their PC's name, so that remembering is easy. Once you start addressing people by PC name, it becomes much more natural to continue talking IC.

3) As a GM, don't just listen to the loud players, keep asking everyone in the circle one by one what they think about the situation and what they want to do. Just maintain a steady rhythm of paying attention to everyone. If you're asking player A and player B interrupts, remind him that his turn is coming. Make sure you hear A's contribution.

As a fellow player, converse with the shy players. Ask their input about the situation, and really listen to it. Then help them get attention for their ideas from the rest of the players.

Sometimes it's a lot easier as a player to help the less assertive players, than as the GM, because he's also busy wrangling the system. I'm currently trying to get good at this, by emphasizing the expertise of my colleague PCs and asking their opinion on stuff we encounter, rather than just steamrolling my ideas across the group. (That's quite a challenge for me.)

Sczarni

We kind of had this issue at a PFS game with 6 players, 2 being new, 3 being experienced PFS, and one being a first time PFS player but with about 30 years gaming experience. The 3 PFS characters, I guess, were used to trying to stay alive through an adventure and tried to talk the 2 brand new players out of doing ANYTHING "foolhardy". Well, the PFS level equivalent Rogue is a acrobatics MACHINE. And to not tumble to flank would have been pretty stupid. Every time that the new player rolled to acro to a spot to flank, the three experience PFS players said "no, don't do that, it never works." With the exception of once (which took 3 or 4 tries) the PFS standard rogue made it by the monsters every time the first time. Fighter gets +2, rogue gets sneak attack... what isn't to love?

As far as talking to characters in character, after 30+ years I don't find this maximally important. I usually, as GM, clarify whenever someone says something silly or stupid that is more part of the player than the character. But then I know my group fairly well as well. Sometimes, the answer is "yes my character says/does that absurdly stupid thing." And then we have fun with the results...


Asca made good suggestions.

One thing that's worked really well at one of my games is when it's not "adventure time", the DM will go around the table and give each player a minute or two to say what they want to do. If a PC wants to do a particular thing in town on his own, the DM gives him a few minutes, resolves that character's "turn", and moves to the next player. Alot of times 2 or 3 players will end up wanting to do the same thing, like going to an inn, but they didn't realize it until after they stopped talking over each other while competing for the DM's attention. In this case, the DM can resolve the actions of the people who didn't want to go to the inn first, then handle the PCs who went to the inn. That way everyone gets a chance to do what they want, and since they know they'll have that opportunity, they are faster & more cooperative with yielding the floor when it's time to do so.

That also makes "downtime" go faster, since it's more focused, everyone gets a turn, and instead of taking a half hour to determine what everyone is doing, it only takes 2-3 minutes per player. Alot of times too a player will just want a chance to buy a particular item, check up on a particular NPC, or add a newly found scroll to their spellbook. Those are all pretty fast things to resolve, but can take FOREVER when everyone is trying to talk at once.

Also, in the case where everyone decides "let's go to the inn", they need to realize that the forthcoming conversation is going to all be in-character. The DM should make that disclaimer before IC conversation/events start, and just like a real conversation, there has to be give & take in the dialogue. If Player XZ says "I get up and get a drink at the bar", then he needs to let the PCs who stayed at the table resolve the rest of their conversation. Leaving an IC conversation is a way to show your character spoke his peace and is ready to move on; it shouldn't be used as a way to demand extra attention from the DM.

edit: also, it can help for players to keep a "personality" reference card in front of them for roleplaying. it can just be short and say "my character is shy and polite. my character is uncomfortable around elves. my character is interested in arcane magic". that way the PC can refer back to the personality they want to portray for their character, and remember to actually speak & act that way IC. A reference card can also be more complex and include idioms the character likes to use, phrases he finds offensive, and minor habits he has (like kicking his shoes off whenever he sits down, or keeping a small store of expensive brandy to share everyday after dinner).


Players addressing each other exclusively by their characters name really helps with the roleplay, it certainly improved my tables attentions.
Putting every word not strictly stated as OOC as in game conversation, with the risks and rewards that entails ("I need to grab my phone" said the half-orc. "He is insane, lock him up" said the APL +10 guard).

Reward in game character roleplaying, if they want to attempt a tricky maneuver that has significant "cool factor", but is not easy to translate into rules (or involves a hundred dice rolls) handwave it as a single roll, make it a do or die action. When players see that roleplay has tangible rewards they should try it more often. Even little things like refusing to eat trail rations for the 20th day in a row and cooking pancakes instead should grant them a +1 morale bonus for the day (maybe, possibly even, impose a -1 morale bonus to everyone else to let them know they are jealous).
As laarddrym said, make sure they understand their characters thoroughly, have loot or quest payments be linked to what their character would want, the more defined the character the cooler and more defined the loot. (I have done this to my party as well in the form of unique magical items linked to major character traits and class).

Make sure the initiative is always listed and visible (a dry erase board, or a boogie board are helpful), keep an out of combat initiative to maintain a sense of order (players can wave their turns easily enough for the rogue to take a 20), either let them set up their order each day, or roll as in combat. Enforce this initiative and ignore those that speak or act out of turn.
Speed up turns, roll damage and attack and % all together, if players are delaying choosing spells (or are busy talking), delay them in the order. Harsh, but they learn to focus and limit distracting conversations when they didn't get to go before the baddies fell.

Strictly enforce a 3-5 sentence/question/reply per round free action tax on players. If they want to tell others what to do beyond this, make them use up swift actions, immediate actions, even move actions or standard actions for their turn. Is yelling at another player worth not taking a full round action on your turn? Probably not.

Finally, change the table dynamic, put quiet players close to you, and loud, interfering players far from you. If you cannot hear a player, find a way to hear them, it can be distracting as a GM trying to calculate loot, tracking BBEG spell durations, finding that one grapple check number (after debuffs and buffs arg), and trying to hear that a player is stealthily trying something new while other players are yelling about flanking and blast ranges.

Shadow Lodge

I'll have advice for #1&3 later, but for now,
2:My groups [and PFS venue even], solves this by having an OOC sign [having our hand raised with our fingers crossed], and when that isn't up we treat all speech as IC. Its simple, fun, and leads to some interesting conversations when people forget to use it.


For distinguishing IC and OOC, my group uses what we call IC/OOC tags, which are nothing more than a small piece of an index card folded in half, with OOC written on one side, and IC on the other. When we talk IC, we put the card to IC, and when we talk OOC, we flip to OOC. Those in our group who have other cues for IC talking (I modify my voice, speech pattern, and mannerisms) tend not to use them as much, because we already signals for IC and OOC. They are also helpful for getting the group assembled after a break in the game for food and the like, with people turning their tags to IC when they are ready to start again.

I also have my fellow gamers refer to me by my character's name if they wish to address my character, and by my own name is they want to address me. It might seem like a small, nitpicky detail, but it serves as a nice, subtle way of signalling IC and OOC communication. I tend to rely more on nonverbal communication cues for signally the difference because I roleplay almost exclusively in first person, so saying something like "My character does X" is not much of an option.

As far as controlling chaos, we tend to take turns when it comes to our actions if it gets too hectic. If everyone wants to do their own thing in town, we go around the table one at a time. When it comes to combat, we give priority to the person who is acting. People are free to offer suggestions, talk, or strategize, but must do so at a respectful volume. We tend to put players who are talkative with each other close together because they can still chat while being able to keep the volume lower as well. Our GM also has a signal (usually something like raising a hand or the like) for when s/he wishes the table to be quiet, often invoked when describing the scene or when the volume starts making communication difficult.


All pretty good advice. I'll add: loud players should be away from wall. Shy players should sit at a place where they're inspired to feel more important ( the daddy place ). OOC talk should raise their hand to speak of or its in character.
As for motivation, if nothing work, make it obvious they're chewing more than they can take on solo.

Sovereign Court

I want to add something more to the round-robin-everyone-gets-a-turn point. In general that's good for making sure everyone gets heard. But it has a dark side.

The dark side is when one player has his PC go do something that takes some IC time, but little OOC time. The other players then get the urge to also do something in the same IC time slot. Because they feel entitled to a time slot, or because they feel they wasted their time if they didn't do anything with it - doesn't really matter. But if the thing the other players do takes a lot of time, then the first player is stuck in wait mode.

For example: in a Vampire game my ritual spellcaster was doing a ritual that took one hour IC, and about five minutes OOC. In that hour the rest of the party decided to check out the suspicious warehouse. And to noone's surprise, encountered someone there, and got into a fight that took several hours OOC. During which I was just sitting around waiting.

If the other players had just said: "okay, we'll wait for him to do the ritual, and then we'll all go to the warehouse", the GM would then have just said "okay, you wait an hour and then he's back from his ritual chamber." And I would've been in the game with them.

So try to make sure every player gets opportunities to do stuff, but keep track of the OOC time it takes, rather than trying to give everyone the same amount of IC time.

Make it clear to the players that they don't have to use up all of the IC time the other PCs are using. That it's okay to say "while the wizard is doing his spell preparation I'll just go hang out in the bar and chat a bit with the locals" and that's that; you don't have to do a ten-minute chatting to nameless villagers scene.

If players doing solo stuff is eating up a lot of time, ask yourself the following questions:
1) Is it entertaining for the other players to watch?
1a) Is it okay for the other players to know about this stuff OOC?
2) Is it short?
3) Is it urgent?

If the answers are mostly Yes, then by all means do the scene. If the answers veer towards No, consider doing the scene over email between sessions.

Note that doing some scenes over email between sessions can also be a good way for the GM to pay more attention to the less assertive players. No other players butting in, and the next session the shy player has some unique new information.


I'm liking these ideas for distinguishing ic and ooc, because I feel even if we all can't agree on one for everyone, that we all can agree on one for ourselves.

The motivation is a huge issue right now. To give better perspective, our characters all have been lone wolves and not really ambitious for adventure life or at least with strangers. We need a reason for the most greedy and racist characters to find an excuse to try being a party. If anyone has personal experience with rotrl and with the mayor character, perhaps you could provide some suggestions that would be in character for her to do.


One thing that helps with a IC/OOC is to encourage people to think the character as a completely different person. As though it's a mask they put on. This works surprisingly well, as people will over time adopt different mannerisms when they are in-character.


Human Fighter wrote:

1. For a diverse group of characters, especially characters that seem to be more motivated by rewards rather than doing things out of the goodness of their own hearts, what are some reasonable suggestions for the GM to place into the game for the party to want to be a party? Everyone has been a lone wolf in their lives in game, and never really adventured, and finding an excuse is difficult for the players who are more role play focused than others.

We are at the very beginning of RoTrL, and we have met a few characters such as the Mayor. Perhaps someone has a basic character from the start of the game that can swoop in and organize the party to BE A PARTY?

I am reaching for as much advice and ideas as possible, and I plan to present them to my group so we can just all vote and figure out what would work best for all our characters. Keeping the integrity of the characters role playing is very important to most of us, so we are just trying to agree to something that makes sense, and then we can move forward.

You all meet in a tavern doesn't work anymore. Not because it's cliche, but because DM authority has weakened over the years.

Even if it's a hands-off sandbox, DMs should railroad until the game actually starts. I call this part "session zero". I would have said something like "decide why you are willing to die for each other, and on a common long term goal" before play starts. For a module, their long-term goal is already decided, and they should agree to it before play, or don't run the module.

Quote:
3. Suggestions on how to better manage the chaos that is everyone wanting to say and do something during the game? Only a few players are assertive, and whoever speaks up first and usually whoever is the loudest will get the GM's attention while having other players feel alienated. I figure a better awareness of this issue will happen as time goes on allowing people to be naturally more considerate, but advice to help this process move along would be extremely helpful.

When a squabble breaks out, get everyone to be quiet, and go around the table. Each person can say something. No interruptions allowed.

Quote:
Anyone else have or has had these issues, and if you USED TO, then how did you get through them? Our last session ended with personal nerves flaring out with one another (due to these problems), and a lot of concern with how we are going to get things moving along in the game.

I don't have problems with #1 anymore. I still see DMs in my group have this problem though, and it's irritating, because I make sure all DMs in my group know how to fix it.

Shadow Lodge

For Motivation solutions, I'd try talking the player playing the "Healer", and point out that healing the party is cutting into his resources, and that nothing is forcing him to heal. I've done this before with my healer characters in PFS games when certain new players were playing the game like an MMO, and doing things that are detrimental to the success of the mission and fun of the game.


Healer agreed to play a real character if he joined our group, who was willing to accept immoral behavior, or even participate in it...

First session we meet a good aligned character who left home to heal those who need his help, because he is a selfless person and, yeah...

Some characters don't know why they would hang out with a goodie two shoes gnome, so that's one of the many reasons I'm here looking for creativity.

The Exchange

MagusJanus wrote:
One thing that helps with a IC/OOC is to encourage people to think the character as a completely different person. As though it's a mask they put on. This works surprisingly well, as people will over time adopt different mannerisms when they are in-character.

It's a little goofy, but in extreme cases I've actually seen people use masks, and it does seem to help. A less extreme version is to ask the players, when they're speaking in character, to do an impression of a favorite actor/celebrity. After a while they no longer sound much like the person they're supposed to be imitating (assuming they ever did), but their 'in character' voice remains distinct from their OOC one.

Having appropriate NPCs 'bond' with a particular shy PC can help them speak up more when they're in a scene with that NPC. "I'm not asking you, Bigloud McShout! I'm talkin' to Whisper here!"

Shadow Lodge

Human Fighter wrote:

Healer agreed to play a real character if he joined our group, who was willing to accept immoral behavior, or even participate in it...

First session we meet a good aligned character who left home to heal those who need his help, because he is a selfless person and, yeah...

Some characters don't know why they would hang out with a goodie two shoes gnome, so that's one of the many reasons I'm here looking for creativity.

I don't know much about RotRL[barely starte playing in it recently myself], but if the Mayor sees the group of PCs and thinks they might be a valuable adventuring group if they started to work together, you could have him draw up a contract with the PCs, nominating the "goody two shoes gnome" as the party leader for being the selfless, good person who cares about others, and agreeing to pay them and let them keep any loot they find.

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