Goblinworks Blog: The War of the Towers


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Goblin Squad Member

Lord Regent: Deacon Wulf wrote:
Amazing information, but I fear it has caused me to ask more questions.

This side of capital T Truth it is the necessary function of a good answer to inspire better questions.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Just FYI: We are changing a bunch of nomenclature. "Skills" will be "Feats" in game. We'll talk more about this soon but it's just a name change not a mechanical difference.

Why?

What will feats be?

Goblin Squad Member

Merkaile of Fidelis wrote:

I appreciate all the clarifications. I like being competitive so being held back (from a skill tier perspective) in my chosen play style isn't appealing to me. It looks like there will, hopefully, be ways to prevent that from happening.

I'm looking forward to making friends/allies with the groups that will provide the necessary training. I'm sure I'll be spending plenty of time in Elkhaven for sure; and Tavernhold beyond.

We look forward to your visits! Lets have an ale!

Goblinworks Game Designer

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Bitter Thorn wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
Just FYI: We are changing a bunch of nomenclature. "Skills" will be "Feats" in game. We'll talk more about this soon but it's just a name change not a mechanical difference.

Why?

What will feats be?

It's not really a change so much as the way it's always been in the design documentation, and we just need to get consistent about it :) .

For example, sometimes we'll mention "abilities" and "skills" when we're really talking about "feats." A feat, in our parlance, is basically anything that you can spend XP to add to your character. Feats have subcategories like Skills, Upgrades, Proficiencies, Expendables, and Combat Feats that each work in a distinct way. It's mostly semantics, but we at least try to be consistent in the official documentation so as to not be even more confusing.

Similarly, the game does not have "classes" only "roles." But, since the roles are based heavily on tabletop's classes, we'll sometimes say that instead of the official term and risk confusion.

Goblin Squad Member

Great- now what are we going to rename PoI's to? >8-]

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
Just FYI: We are changing a bunch of nomenclature. "Skills" will be "Feats" in game. We'll talk more about this soon but it's just a name change not a mechanical difference.

Why?

What will feats be?

It's not really a change so much as the way it's always been in the design documentation, and we just need to get consistent about it :) .

For example, sometimes we'll mention "abilities" and "skills" when we're really talking about "feats." A feat, in our parlance, is basically anything that you can spend XP to add to your character. Feats have subcategories like Skills, Upgrades, Proficiencies, Expendables, and Combat Feats that each work in a distinct way. It's mostly semantics, but we at least try to be consistent in the official documentation so as to not be even more confusing.

Similarly, the game does not have "classes" only "roles." But, since the roles are based heavily on tabletop's classes, we'll sometimes say that instead of the official term and risk confusion.

OK. I have zero MMO RPG experience so I'm trying to wrap my head around this stuff. I get that a lot of the mechanic for an MMO must differ from tabletop, but all of my experience is table top so it's a bit alien to me.

Goblin Squad Member

Tork, could help unpack your comments on what roles/parts of roles can be trained/supported?

Tork Shaw wrote:


Balanced Settlement: This is what I imagine a settlement who is trying to cover their bases will do. Its what I'd do, basically ;)

It trains 7 classes and supports 3 more (for a total of 10 supported).
It supports 4 feat schools.
It trains 6 craft skill.
It trains 5 trade skills.
It trains 12 Skills.

In this example, the first line sounds like a settlement could have 10 viable roles. Seven of them you can train in-house, and three you can support in-house, but essentially if your chosen role is one of the 10, you could live in Ozemtown and do your thing.

But then the second part makes no sense to me--I'm not sure what "feat schools" vs. "craft/trade skills" vs "skills" are. Do "feat schools" correspond to roles, so instead of training 7, you actually fully train four and then partially train three? If your trained roles included commoner and expert, would 6 craft+12 trade skills cover both roles?

I'm trying to get a handle on how many roles a settlement could make viable in their settlement--something like "We plan to train Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, Paladin, Commoner, Expert, and support Aristocrat, Monk, and Bard," knowing that if someone wants to be a Ranger, Druid, Barbarian or Sorcerer, they are not really a good fit for us. But the "4 feats part" makes me think maybe the number is a lot smaller.

Tork Shaw wrote:


2) A quick example : The Cleric training facility is the Temple. It is a medium sized structure. The Temple can be leveled up to offer Cleric specific feats up to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The Cleric support structure is called the Graveyard. It is a SMALL sized structure. It too can be leveled up to support Cleric specific feats to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The building that trains Cleric (and paladin and likely druid/ranger/oracle) orisons/spells is called the Seminary. It is a medium sized structure. It can be leveled up to offer Wizard specific feats up to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The support structure for the Seminary is called the Mission. It is a SMALL sized structure. It too can be leveled up to support Seminary skills (including all the classes the seminary supports) specific feats to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

SO - a settlement who wants to fully trains Clerics needs a Seminary (medium) and a Temple (medium).*

A settlement who wants to fully SUPPORT clerics needs a Graveyard (small) and Mission (small).

Does this mean that "Cleric training"=Cleric feats + Cleric spells? And that the same building that trains divine spells can be developed/leveled to also provide arcane spells? if so, I can see pretty easily how casting classes have feats+spells=role training. What about Fighters or Rogues? Do they just have feats, or feats + combat abilities, also spread across two buildings?

Scarab Sages

A side question a bit off-topic:

I played a bit to be "role" Barbarian of Awesome Rage 2...

After a little training I become a Bard of Awesomeful Awesome 1...

Then how could I become that Barbarian 2 again? Only selecting in my "roles tab" or will I have to train Barbarian 2 all again?

Goblin Squad Member

Kemedo, you never lose any training (although you may lose access to trained skills if your settlement does not support them.) You have a limited number of "slots" for making abilities and role features active and usable, so it's just a question of slotting your bard stuff or your barbarian stuff as you prefer.

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:
Kemedo, you never lose any training (although you may lose access to trained skills if your settlement does not support them.) You have a limited number of "slots" for making abilities and role features active and usable, so it's just a question of slotting your bard stuff or your barbarian stuff as you prefer.

Or a combination of barbarian and bard slots filled. Basically playing a Skald.

Scarab Sages

So in fact I still be Barbarian 2/Bard 1 at the same time???

UHULL! Multi-class.. AHEM.. Multi-roles!

Goblin Squad Member

Kemedo wrote:

So in fact I still be Barbarian 2/Bard 1 at the same time???

UHULL! Multi-class.. AHEM.. Multi-roles!

Correct.

Goblinworks Game Designer

Mbando wrote:
Tork, could help unpack your comments on what roles/parts of roles can be trained/supported?
Tork Shaw wrote:


Balanced Settlement: This is what I imagine a settlement who is trying to cover their bases will do. Its what I'd do, basically ;)

It trains 7 classes and supports 3 more (for a total of 10 supported).
It supports 4 feat schools.
It trains 6 craft skill.
It trains 5 trade skills.
It trains 12 Skills.

In this example, the first line sounds like a settlement could have 10 viable roles. Seven of them you can train in-house, and three you can support in-house, but essentially if your chosen role is one of the 10, you could live in Ozemtown and do your thing.

But then the second part makes no sense to me--I'm not sure what "feat schools" vs. "craft/trade skills" vs "skills" are. Do "feat schools" correspond to roles, so instead of training 7, you actually fully train four and then partially train three? If your trained roles included commoner and expert, would 6 craft+12 trade skills cover both roles?

I'm trying to get a handle on how many roles a settlement could make viable in their settlement--something like "We plan to train Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, Paladin, Commoner, Expert, and support Aristocrat, Monk, and Bard," knowing that if someone wants to be a Ranger, Druid, Barbarian or Sorcerer, they are not really a good fit for us. But the "4 feats part" makes me think maybe the number is a lot smaller.

Tork Shaw wrote:


2) A quick example : The Cleric training facility is the Temple. It is a medium sized structure. The Temple can be leveled up to offer Cleric specific feats up to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The Cleric support structure is called the Graveyard. It is a SMALL sized structure. It too can be leveled up to support Cleric specific feats to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The building that trains Cleric (and paladin and likely druid/ranger/oracle) orisons/spells is called the Seminary. It is a medium sized structure. It can be

...

We are getting further and further away from the original blog so I'll do a quick run down on this but it will otherwise need to wait for a bigger settlement post I'm afraid. This is really a discussion about post-towers settlements to be honest.

Feat schools train sets of feats. An example is the Skirmisher school. It trains light weapons, archery skills, and feats one would expect characters wearing leather armor to want (dodges, evades, etc.)

The Thieves Guild trains rogues. It will have all the ROGUE specific skills like things related to sneak attack/uncanny dodge/etc.

So if you want to train rogues you'll need both the Thieves Guild to support rogue specific stuff AND most likely the Skirmisher school, since rogues will also want to learn light armor skills and light weapon skills.

The Skirmisher school will also cover lots of skills that light armored fighters, rangers, bards, and archers will want. So it does double/triple/quadruple duty on that end. If you want to support the primary class features of those classes, however, you will also need to build the specific structures required for those classes/roles.

Clearer?

Goblin Squad Member

See here: https://goblinworks.com/blog/by-the-time-i-lose-it-im-not-afraid/

Based on what we know, it looks like a Skald type character could have two implements equipped: one a war drum with 6 bard abilities attached, and one a severed head with 6 barbarian abilities attached. You could simply swap freely between them as you thought best. Presumably, you would not be able to slot a Role Feature for either role if you wanted to have access to both implements during the same combat, but you could reslot yourself for just one role or the other any time you wanted to specialize and use the appropriate role feature.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks Tork, that's a lot clearer, and I'm looking forward to a future blog that discusses this in more detail.

So I guess we can speculate that there will be some sort of Armory that trains clerics, paladins, and fighters who wear heavy armor in the kinds of skills they want, and so on. That's cool :)

Goblin Squad Member

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Tork Shaw wrote:
Yes its true that you will not be able to be in a settlement with EVERY class. This is a deliberate design choice.

2 questions, if you don't mind:

2) Is there any power level disadvantage at all between a character who can train their class in their settlement, versus a character who trains with an ally and has a support structure in their settlement? Meaning, can support structures support the entire range of abilities that can be trained?

Thanks

I sure hope so!

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Kemedo wrote:

So in fact I still be Barbarian 2/Bard 1 at the same time???

UHULL! Multi-class.. AHEM.. Multi-roles!

Unless it's changed... Yes, although slotting mixed abilities means giving up the "dedication bonus" which is meant to equalize single-class slotted characters with the potential synergy advantages of mixed-class slotting. It replaces the "capstone" abilities in PFRPG. You could train barbarian & bard stuff and then experiment with different slotting schemes to get either of the dedication bonuses or different mix synergies.

As to "class" or "role": changing the name doesn't change the function. "Healer" is a role, but it's one that could be accomplished by a few different classes.

Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:
As to "class" or "role": changing the name doesn't change the function. "Healer" is a role, but it's one that could be accomplished by a few different classes.

Well, when talking about roles in PfO, healer will not be one of them; cleric is one, however. Just semantics, it's true.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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Shane Gifford of Fidelis wrote:
Keovar wrote:
As to "class" or "role": changing the name doesn't change the function. "Healer" is a role, but it's one that could be accomplished by a few different classes.
Well, when talking about roles in PfO, healer will not be one of them; cleric is one, however. Just semantics, it's true.

I'm not talking about the Healer from D&D 3.X, I'm talking about someone who fulfills the role of healing people. It's a necessary function in many situations in which people are hurt, but there are quite a few different types of training which can accomplish it. I see no good reason not to call those training sets classes.

Define "role" and define "class". Are they functionally different, or are we just saying that we'll call a liquid "dihydrogen monoxide" when it's in one bucket and "water" when it's in another? Why pick a battle of nomenclature with everyone who comes in after OE if there's no functional difference in the terms?

Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:
Define "role" and define "class". Are they functionally different, or are we just saying that we'll call a liquid "dihydrogen monoxide" when it's in one bucket and "water" when it's in another? Why pick a battle of nomenclature with everyone who comes in after OE if there's no functional difference in the terms?

Class is the set of specific abilities, mechanics, and ethos that makes up a character.

Role is what a character uses their abilities to do in context of the game.

GW didn't want anyone to think your character is permanently locked into a certain class upon creation like standard procedure in most MMOs, so they decided to use a different word without that connotation attached.

The problem is they picked "role" which already has a very well-defined and highly established meaning of it's own for MMO characters. Now the gigantic universally accepted meaning is butting up against GW's "we're going to make this a thing" attempt to redefine role as a class that you're not locked into.

I'm still waiting/hoping for the day they accept "roles" in the MMO industry are: damage, tank, healing, control, support, crafter... Classes are fighter, cleric, mage, etc. and a class can frequently perform different roles; like I've seen both fighters and rogues do the role of tank, but the rogues perform the tank role completely differently than fighters (lots of elusion vs. heavy damage mitigation) because their classes have wildly different skill sets and strengths. But other classes like mage can't tank at all because their class abilities don't include the agro generation subset.

GW can just say the game has an Open-Class System, you can always train any class you want to be with a single character or even mix-and-match your own.

Personally, inventing my own class out of familiar elements from all of them sounds a lot more interesting than some kind of confusing talk about different roles. I've been baffled why they haven't highlighted the opportunity to invent and play your own class as a marketing element.

Goblin Squad Member

A class advances as the character gains experience. Get enough and skill improve.

Alternately. one can spend exp on skills under PfO. Any skill for which the prerequisites are met. If the character meets all skills, attributes, events, they can get an event badge for the next role level. I am not sure any roles give anything, but may be prerequisites for some skills.

Under PF/DnD/d20 need experience to get skills. Under Pfo, need to get skills to get role level, but, if the character has attributes, etc. …, can learn any skill.

In D20, level and class determines skills. Wait for level to get skill!

Under PfO, skills et al. determine roles leave. Get the skill and then get roles level.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Let the speculation begin!

One of the things that I think might benefit from a "fix" (or rather adjustment) is the PvP Window.

If there are, indeed, thousands of people in the game when the war of Towers commences for real, then it's probably fine. If, however, there are substantially fewer, I'd like to see a window that is substantially more flexible.

I suggest that the PvP window be changed from a daily thing to a weekly thing, with multiple options, such that a group that has currently (as an example) a two hour window per day, always at the same time, would instead of a 14 hour weekly aggregate window, which they could break up as they wish, from two hours a day to 14 hours on the weekend beginning Saturday at noon and running to 2:00am Sunday. With the possibility of various options, so they could do 3 hours on Wednesday for the Europeans, 2 hours on Friday for the Austraians and 9 hours on Saturday for the [North and South] Americans

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