Goblinworks Blog: The War of the Towers


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Goblin Squad Member

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Seems to me that making players dependent on other players is a good thing for everyone. If relatively small groups of players were able to get everything they needed from a relatively small social circle, then they'd be much less constrained in their behavior - essentially, they'd be free to grief without having to deal with the social layers of the Multi-Layered Approach.

Goblin Squad Member

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
... while he may find training in another settlement, his skills will be reduced since his chosen settlement, Ozem's Vigil, at best only provides support structures for rogues.

Those support structures can fully support his training. Also, don't forget that his Company can build (some of?) those support structures at a POI if his Settlement doesn't want to.

Goblin Squad Member

It was plainly spelled out that if you do not fit in the "template" chosen during the WotT, you will not enjoy the maximum level of skill/feat training available. Even if you train your "other" skills elsewhere, you will be limited to the settings of the settlements template AND the "other" skills will be below that level.

This may be surmountable by controlling so many towers that the "other" skill levels are equal to the maximum available elsewhere, but that won't put you in good graces with your neighbors. Neither will it be easy to take and keep towers far from your general area and that of your neighbors.

Basically, this does divide a settlement's populace, except for the very most committed and selfless of players. Either that or an all out greed fest of tower grabbing that will be a big mess.

I am sincerely hoping that wherever Ozem's Vigil lands, we will be able to negotiate with our local cohabitants. We are prepared to get very competetive for WotT, but we would much prefer that there are other options.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
everyone can support everything

We don't know that this is even technically true, and even if it is technically true it is not true in any meanigful sense.

The "class trainer" city design template offered by Tork in this post supports 12 classes. This is enough for all the core classes and one advanced, but even so, as the game ages and more options are released, eventually there will be some hard choices made.

The "crafting" city template only supports 7 combat roles.

And, those templates are based on max DIs, so figure the average settlement on the map will have maybe half of that?

Goblin Squad Member

The developers are striving to build a vital system which discourages "negative" behaviour. They've sketched out a path that makes it really hard for individuals, or even a gigantic group of negative players to succeed.

Realistic, or not, convenient, or not, their goal is to discourage random violence, and making sure that even a huge settlement will have little success if they isolate themselves from other players seems to fit that goal.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm worried about being as good as I can be in my chosen role. In order to do that in the current system as described I'll have to chose a settlement other than Ozem's Vigil. I'll have to surf the blogs of the past to fish out the bits about POIs providing training but given the nature of OV I'd really have to form my own CC and take a POI on my own to not be limited in that role.

Personally I think limiting the training available is enough to drive dependency and interaction. Adding the whole support element is just driving me away from those I want to interact with (which this game has already done in the past with the alignment restrictions). I have to chose to take a different role than what I'd like or find a new settlement.

Goblin Squad Member

Tork did mention in that same post that "A settlement can function pretty well with NO class training and ONLY class support structures." So if a settlement wanted to carve out a market niche based on inclusiveness and everyone can play with everyone else, they could forgo offering training and have a wider range of class support than anyone else. Everyone would have to find training elsewhere on their own, of course, but that would be the tradeoff.

Goblin Squad Member

For WotT there will be no POI. There is only what the settlement decides, which template it picks. Others roles will be supported (I am not sure if that is all 15 roles or not (9 cleric roles, Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Commoner, Expert, Aristocrat -- actually that one will not be there)).
Going to an ally (or NPC town) for training will cover the actual training, but support will be lower than the native training.
There is a lot of upset about this. I do not understand the reasoning for making it lesser. Maybe some dev will explain the need for support level to bbs less than the training centers.

Goblin Squad Member

Remember, you can also join a non-Sponsored Company from another Settlement that supports the Role Features you want.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Remember, you can also join a non-Sponsored Company from another Settlement that supports the Role Features you want.

This only comes into play with the POIs a company owns, right? Which will support a very limited subset of skills. Why would their settlement affiliation matter?

Goblin Squad Member

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Remember, you can also join a non-Sponsored Company from another Settlement that supports the Role Features you want.
This only comes into play with the POIs a company owns, right? Which will support a very limited subset of skills. Why would their settlement affiliation matter?

My point was that you don't necessarily have to leave your Settlement to get the Role Support you need.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Remember, you can also join a non-Sponsored Company from another Settlement that supports the Role Features you want.
This only comes into play with the POIs a company owns, right? Which will support a very limited subset of skills. Why would their settlement affiliation matter?
My point was that you don't necessarily have to leave your Settlement to get the Role Support you need.

Do you mean after WotT? What settlements will have companies (during), that can't control towers? You can only be a member of one company during WotT.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Aet Rafkin wrote:
...you're limiting player choice which is always a bad idea in an MMO.

PFO, at its heart, is about causing people to make what Goblinworks wants to be "interesting choices". I'm not sure I see how player choice is being limited.

One Settlement offers training for Fighters and Clerics, their friend next door offers Mages and Rogues, and another nearby friend offers Crafting. All players will be able to train what they want, whenever they choose.

Maybe I'm not clear on how it works. Even if I can get training from a neighbor aren't I limited in skills because my home settlement doesn't support that class?

Goblin Squad Member

Aet Rafkin wrote:
Maybe I'm not clear on how it works. Even if I can get training from a neighbor aren't I limited in skills because my home settlement doesn't support that class?

Your settlement may not train the class, but may support the class, which is cheaper in terms of DI. You need a training structure to learn the skill, but either a training or support structure is sufficient to enable use of the skill once it has been trained.

If your settlement doesn't even support the class, then yes you are likely SOL and have to decide if that's the right home for you if they are unwilling to build the necessary support structure.

What I'm not 100% clear on is if support structures provide *full* support, the same as if you had a training structure in your settlement, or if they serve to support skills only to a rank or two less than what a training structure supports them to.

If your character is no worse off by training elsewhere and being supported at home, I'm ok with it (also assuming that support structures are not expensive in terms of DI). If you have to take any kind of power level hit by not having the full training structure in your settlement, I would really dislike the design.

Goblin Squad Member

Aet Rafkin wrote:
T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Aet Rafkin wrote:
...you're limiting player choice which is always a bad idea in an MMO.

PFO, at its heart, is about causing people to make what Goblinworks wants to be "interesting choices". I'm not sure I see how player choice is being limited.

One Settlement offers training for Fighters and Clerics, their friend next door offers Mages and Rogues, and another nearby friend offers Crafting. All players will be able to train what they want, whenever they choose.

Maybe I'm not clear on how it works. Even if I can get training from a neighbor aren't I limited in skills because my home settlement doesn't support that class?

There will be two types of structures related to character skills in PFO.

1) Class training structures. You spend exp here to learn new skills. They also support whatever training you already have.

2) Class support structures. These let you keep your old skills sharp and you can still use them. These structures don't advance skills, they just maintain your old ones. These structures cost less DI than a training structure.

So, Calambea could have Wizard and Cleric training, but have support structures for rogues and fighters. You might have to travel a bit to learn new skills as a rogue or fighter, but you'll be able to maintain your skills at home.

Goblin Squad Member

Merkaile of Fidelis wrote:

I'm worried about being as good as I can be in my chosen role. In order to do that in the current system as described I'll have to chose a settlement other than Ozem's Vigil. I'll have to surf the blogs of the past to fish out the bits about POIs providing training but given the nature of OV I'd really have to form my own CC and take a POI on my own to not be limited in that role.

Personally I think limiting the training available is enough to drive dependency and interaction. Adding the whole support element is just driving me away from those I want to interact with (which this game has already done in the past with the alignment restrictions). I have to chose to take a different role than what I'd like or find a new settlement.

Sorry, I get myself in trouble when I don't quote what I'm referring to.

I was trying to reassure Merkaile that the game systems won't force him to leave Ozem's Vigil. He has the option of convincing Ozem's Vigil to devote precious Settlement real estate to Role Support Facilities for his chosen Role, or he can join a Company (or three!) that provide the Role Support he needs. In the latter case, as long as the Company isn't Sponsored, it doesn't even matter where the other members of the Company reside - they'd have to build and hold a POI and not have it tied to a Settlement, though.

Goblin Squad Member

Lee Hammock wrote:
from For example, Torkville controls 6 towers and is a cleric/fighter settlement. It can train up to level 8 fighter and cleric related skills, feats, etc. It cannot train any wizard or rogue skills, but can support them up to level...say 5 (note I am pulling approxmiate numbers here, so if anyone tries to hold me to them in six months I will laugh and laugh). So people in the settlement can train and use up to level 8 skills for fighter and clerics, and if they train wizard and rogue skills somewhere else they can only use up to level 5 of those skills while being a member of that settlement. This is to stop people from bouncing around settlements, training everyone, and then being completely antisocial as they don't need any more training. But it does allow you to train classes other than those your settlement favors at allied settlements.

A bit botched on the BBC but that is a good example.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
or he can join a Company (or three!) that provide the Role Support he needs. In the latter case, as long as the Company isn't Sponsored, it doesn't even matter where the other members of the Company reside - they'd have to build and hold a POI and not have it tied to a Settlement, though.

This part seems to be of extremely limited usefulness, though, unless I'm missing something. I'm not sure what benefits you get in joining these other companies, outside of whatever POI benefits those companies enjoy. But those POI benefits are of very limited usefulness:

Tork wrote:
2) PoIs: As Stephen mentioned PoIs only really cover skills. There may be SOME PoIs that can cover SOME class training up to tier II but mostly they will train skills/professions/crafting/harvesting. If you are a member of a company with a PoI you will enjoy the benefit of support for those skills as well as support for skills covered by your settlement. There will be some corner cases where this might be a bit of a boon, but generally speaking the skills/feats supported by PoIs will not be game-breaking.

That doesn't sound like a substitute for a support structure to me in the vast majority of cases.

Goblin Squad Member

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Tork wrote:
2) PoIs: As Stephen mentioned PoIs only really cover skills. There may be SOME PoIs that can cover SOME class training up to tier II but mostly they will train skills/professions/crafting/harvesting. If you are a member of a company with a PoI you will enjoy the benefit of support for those skills as well as support for skills covered by your settlement. There will be some corner cases where this might be a bit of a boon, but generally speaking the skills/feats supported by PoIs will not be game-breaking.
That doesn't sound like a substitute for a support structure to me in the vast majority of cases.

Here's what I'm talking about:

Training support buildings are small buildings that replicate the training of a larger building, but only for purposes of maintaining that training. Since they're small, they're much cheaper to build and easier to fit into your settlement. Like the big buildings, what they can support increases as you upgrade them. Think of them as refresher annexes, without the staff to actually train you but with reference materials to keep your skills sharp (though I don't know what form the buildings will actually take... might be something more abstract like a statue). Certain PoIs can also be upgraded to count as support buildings for certain types of training (and to train skills outright).

Goblin Squad Member

I guess my question to that is...does Stephen (it was Stephen) mean they can be upgraded to "full" support buildings, or the "limited" versions that Tork describes? In that thread, Tork was the "expert" on that subject matter so I think his description is probably the more accurate one

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:
It means you start as a cleric, and you focus your training on generic cleric abilities or abilities appropriate to the alignment and domains of your preferred deity, while avoiding (if you choose) any deity-specific powers of other gods.

OK. I have other questions, but I will raise them in the character thread. Thanks for the reply.

Goblin Squad Member

Lee (or possibly another dev) clarified that PoI-based support was almost exclusively for Skills, and that Feats would need to be supported out of your settlement.

Goblin Squad Member

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
I guess my question to that is...does Stephen (it was Stephen) mean they can be upgraded to "full" support buildings, or the "limited" versions that Tork describes? In that thread, Tork was the "expert" on that subject matter so I think his description is probably the more accurate one

I'm not seeing any discrepancy between the two. I think Tork was clarifying that POI Training Facilities are limited. But I'm not talking about those, I'm talking about POI Support Facilities.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
I guess my question to that is...does Stephen (it was Stephen) mean they can be upgraded to "full" support buildings, or the "limited" versions that Tork describes? In that thread, Tork was the "expert" on that subject matter so I think his description is probably the more accurate one
I'm not seeing any discrepancy between the two. I think Tork was clarifying that POI Training Facilities are limited. But I'm not talking about those, I'm talking about POI Support Facilities.

So, support facilities might include Denny's, casinos, waterparks and the Post Office?

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:
Lee (or possibly another dev) clarified that PoI-based support was almost exclusively for Skills, and that Feats would need to be supported out of your settlement.

Doing some research on this.

First, I attributed the quote above to Lee, but it's actually Stephen Cheney, and I missed the window to edit it by 4 minutes.

Okay, I see what Toombs and Guurzak are saying and I think y'all are right. I originally read Tork's statement as a distinction between "training" and "support", but I see now it's more likely he was distinguishing between "feats" (I assume these are Adventuring Role-based skills - Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue) and "skills" (I assume these are non-Adventuring Role-based skills - Aristocrat, Expert, Commoner).

Sorry for the confusion. Although Merkaile should still take comfort that Ozem's Vigil can build Support Facilities for his Role - of course, they may not want to...

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Guurzak wrote:
Lee (or possibly another dev) clarified that PoI-based support was almost exclusively for Skills, and that Feats would need to be supported out of your settlement.

Doing some research on this.

First, I attributed the quote above to Lee, but it's actually Stephen Cheney, and I missed the window to edit it by 4 minutes.

Okay, I see what Toombs and Guurzak are saying and I think y'all are right. I originally read Tork's statement as a distinction between "training" and "support", but I see now it's more likely he was distinguishing between "feats" (I assume these are Adventuring Role-based skills - Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue) and "skills" (I assume these are non-Adventuring Role-based skills - Aristocrat, Expert, Commoner).

Sorry for the confusion. Although Merkaile should still take comfort that Ozem's Vigil can build Support Facilities for his Role - of course, they may not want to...

Lol. We are certainly NOT going to leave loyal members hanging in the wind. If we don't have room for full training and there is a reasonable demand, we will have "support" at least. Unless the system really is skewed so far toward "specialist" settlements that it is impossible. If that is the case, GW should probably make that clear. Not that they have too, just that it would be fair to everyone. At least then, expectations and reality based choices can be better made.

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:
Lol. We are certainly NOT going to leave loyal members hanging in the wind.

Are you sure? We can take those dirty, thieving rogues off your hands if you like :P

Goblin Squad Member

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Hey! I called dibs on Ozem's rogues for Elkhaven. Get your own.

Goblin Squad Member

I am certain that they aren't dirty, we ask few questions beyond whether they got the job done. Too many complications with questions...

Goblin Squad Member

We had a discussion about this already. We will be offering support outside of our focus absolutely. Specifically the Rogue was mentioned to alleviate concerns on that front. Since details are few and far between, it's a very fluid conversation. We can't make any promises now on what priority will take place at this point.

That being said my understanding is that Tier 1 and 2 are available even in NPC towns for training. 3 and 4 require settlements with more advanced training. I could absolutely be wrong about this, but that is what I thought. I also thought they said we wouldn't get to tier 3 and 4 until a significant amount of time has passed. Well past the Tower War thing would of ended.

The thing that has me curious is the support structure not allowing access to players full range of skills. I thought when you trained somewhere else and had a support structure at your settlement- you were good to go. What disadvantage would someone be placed at?

Having people buy services for lesser results than having training in their own settlement seems counter productive. It discourages you to sell training and encourages settlements to do it themselves. That doesn't encourage commerce or interaction with other groups of people.

Goblin Squad Member

FMS Quietus wrote:

We had a discussion about this already. We will be offering support outside of our focus absolutely. Specifically the Rogue was mentioned to alleviate concerns on that front. Since details are few and far between, it's a very fluid conversation. We can't make any promises now on what priority will take place at this point.

That being said my understanding is that Tier 1 and 2 are available even in NPC towns for training. 3 and 4 require settlements with more advanced training. I could absolutely be wrong about this, but that is what I thought. I also thought they said we wouldn't get to tier 3 and 4 until a significant amount of time has passed. Well past the Tower War thing would of ended.

The thing that has me curious is the support structure not allowing access to players full range of skills. I thought when you trained somewhere else and had a support structure at your settlement- you were good to go. What disadvantage would someone be placed at?

Having people buy services for lesser results than having training in their own settlement seems counter productive. It discourages you to sell training and encourages settlements to do it themselves. That doesn't encourage commerce or interaction with other groups of people.

That may be true after the WotT, possibly. But during, it will be something like this:

Lee Hammock wrote:

For example, Torkville controls 6 towers and is a cleric/fighter settlement. It can train up to level 8 fighter and cleric related skills, feats, etc. It cannot train any wizard or rogue skills, but can support them up to level...say 5 (note I am pulling approxmiate numbers here, so if anyone tries to hold me to them in six months I will laugh and laugh). So people in the settlement can train and use up to level 8 skills for fighter and clerics, and if they train wizard and rogue skills somewhere else they can only use up to level 5 of those skills while being a member of that settlement. This is to stop people from bouncing around settlements, training everyone, and then being completely antisocial as they don't need any more training. But it does allow you to train classes other than those your settlement favors at allied settlements.

Goblin Squad Member

See your other post as well- thanks BLite.

Curious if Thornkeep will allow training as well during this period and to what extent.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Nihimon wrote:
Guurzak wrote:
Lee (or possibly another dev) clarified that PoI-based support was almost exclusively for Skills, and that Feats would need to be supported out of your settlement.

Doing some research on this.

First, I attributed the quote above to Lee, but it's actually Stephen Cheney, and I missed the window to edit it by 4 minutes.

Okay, I see what Toombs and Guurzak are saying and I think y'all are right. I originally read Tork's statement as a distinction between "training" and "support", but I see now it's more likely he was distinguishing between "feats" (I assume these are Adventuring Role-based skills - Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue) and "skills" (I assume these are non-Adventuring Role-based skills - Aristocrat, Expert, Commoner).

Sorry for the confusion. Although Merkaile should still take comfort that Ozem's Vigil can build Support Facilities for his Role - of course, they may not want to...

Eep, sorry for making you dredge back through it all Nihimon - I was busy doing a wee playtest with Stephen and Bob. Which went well, you might be interested to know! I think Bob was the only one to die...

To clarify - PoIs are almost exclusively going to train skills. There will be SOME feats available, but they will only go to Tier II and they will likely be limited. There is a possibility that there will be some Role/Class training included in those feats but it will be pretty minimal.

The example bandying about right now is that Inns may be able to train SOME of the Bard feats (eventually). In this example it would only be to tier II and it would most likely only be a subset of those feats or potentially specific faction based Bard skills that went well with the inn in question.

Obviously this idea could expand out to things like fighter feats for towers, rogue feats for hideouts, etc. (Note those are theoretical - the PoI list is still fluid!).

This means that SUPPORT for skills is pretty much confined to settlements right now. Once the support tech is in place it may be possible (and desirable) to expand some kinds of support to PoIs, but that is unlikely to be the case anywhere in the near future.

The important thing to remember is that support structures are cheaper (significantly) than Class/Role training structures. As I think I demonstrated in those example settlements there will be NO settlement that can train or support ALL the (eventual) classes/roles. An average settlement can train well over half, however, and a Class/Role focused settlement can nearly support them all.

Yes its true that you will not be able to be in a settlement with EVERY class. This is a deliberate design choice.

Goblin Squad Member

Tork Shaw wrote:
Yes its true that you will not be able to be in a settlement with EVERY class. This is a deliberate design choice.

2 questions, if you don't mind:

1) How do nation-level structures impact this?
2) Is there any power level disadvantage at all between a character who can train their class in their settlement, versus a character who trains with an ally and has a support structure in their settlement? Meaning, can support structures support the entire range of abilities that can be trained?

Thanks

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:
FMS Quietus wrote:

We had a discussion about this already. We will be offering support outside of our focus absolutely. Specifically the Rogue was mentioned to alleviate concerns on that front. Since details are few and far between, it's a very fluid conversation. We can't make any promises now on what priority will take place at this point.

That being said my understanding is that Tier 1 and 2 are available even in NPC towns for training. 3 and 4 require settlements with more advanced training. I could absolutely be wrong about this, but that is what I thought. I also thought they said we wouldn't get to tier 3 and 4 until a significant amount of time has passed. Well past the Tower War thing would of ended.

The thing that has me curious is the support structure not allowing access to players full range of skills. I thought when you trained somewhere else and had a support structure at your settlement- you were good to go. What disadvantage would someone be placed at?

Having people buy services for lesser results than having training in their own settlement seems counter productive. It discourages you to sell training and encourages settlements to do it themselves. That doesn't encourage commerce or interaction with other groups of people.

That may be true after the WotT, possibly. But during, it will be something like this:

Lee Hammock wrote:

For example, Torkville controls 6 towers and is a cleric/fighter settlement. It can train up to level 8 fighter and cleric related skills, feats, etc. It cannot train any wizard or rogue skills, but can support them up to level...say 5 (note I am pulling approxmiate numbers here, so if anyone tries to hold me to them in six months I will laugh and laugh). So people in the settlement can train and use up to level 8 skills for fighter and clerics, and if they train wizard and rogue skills somewhere else they can only use up to level 5 of those skills while being a member of that settlement. This is to stop people from...

A quick note on this... The level of support offered by the 'kit' settlements is still a little in flux. It is very possible that in fact support will be to the full level of the trained classes in each settlement. In fact I think it is likely. As Lee mentioned he was still spit-balling a bit about exactly how that would work and we're still hammering out the deets. I've been drawing up the sample settlements and it seems likely we will end up with full support for non-trained classes.

Goblin Squad Member

That is Marvelous NEWS!

Goblinworks Game Designer

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<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Tork Shaw wrote:
Yes its true that you will not be able to be in a settlement with EVERY class. This is a deliberate design choice.

2 questions, if you don't mind:

1) How do nation-level structures impact this?
2) Is there any power level disadvantage at all between a character who can train their class in their settlement, versus a character who trains with an ally and has a support structure in their settlement? Meaning, can support structures support the entire range of abilities that can be trained?

Thanks

Quick answers, sorry, I'm just doing some bug writing!

1) TBD. In principal the only advantage nations have is that they can freely move between/train between/and gain preferential training rates between associated settlements. Each settlement will still need to provide support structures for their members.

2) A quick example : The Cleric training facility is the Temple. It is a medium sized structure. The Temple can be leveled up to offer Cleric specific feats up to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The Cleric support structure is called the Graveyard. It is a SMALL sized structure. It too can be leveled up to support Cleric specific feats to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The building that trains Cleric (and paladin and likely druid/ranger/oracle) orisons/spells is called the Seminary. It is a medium sized structure. It can be leveled up to offer Wizard specific feats up to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The support structure for the Seminary is called the Mission. It is a SMALL sized structure. It too can be leveled up to support Seminary skills (including all the classes the seminary supports) specific feats to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

SO - a settlement who wants to fully trains Clerics needs a Seminary (medium) and a Temple (medium).*

A settlement who wants to fully SUPPORT clerics needs a Graveyard (small) and Mission (small).

In both cases to support them fully they would need to upgrade those buildings with tier 2 and 3 facilities.

The only way there would be a power disadvantage would be if your Settlement was too stingy to spend the DI on the upgrades to support your class all the way.

*Note there are also large structures that can train clerics but I'm keeping this simple for now!

CEO, Goblinworks

Just FYI: We are changing a bunch of nomenclature. "Skills" will be "Feats" in game. We'll talk more about this soon but it's just a name change not a mechanical difference.

Paizo Employee Goblinworks Game Designer

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Tork Shaw wrote:
I think Bob was the only one to die...

Just testing the death functionality. I'm sure you'll all be happy to hear that it works quite well, even when dying over and over and over and...

Goblin Squad Member

Bob Settles wrote:
Tork Shaw wrote:
I think Bob was the only one to die...
Just testing the death functionality. I'm sure you'll all be happy to hear that it works quite well, even when dying over and over and over and...

I am glad to know. Just in case, mind you!

Goblin Squad Member

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This thread just got allllll kinds of good.

Thank you, Devs, for the information and hardwork!

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the clarifications Tork, it alleviates one of my two concerns. Personally, I'd love to see nation-level support structures that can be used for broad strokes of multiple-class support for its member settlements. In fact, I'm going to go toss that up on the idea board.

Goblin Squad Member

Bob Settles wrote:
Tork Shaw wrote:
I think Bob was the only one to die...
Just testing the death functionality....

Uh huh, sure... ;)

Goblinworks Game Designer

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Thanks for the clarifications Tork, it alleviates one of my two concerns. Personally, I'd love to see nation-level support structures that can be used for broad strokes of multiple-class support for its member settlements. In fact, I'm going to go toss that up on the idea board.

I'm liking this as a concept, but it does conflict somewhat with our overall design goals. The danger with nations is that they are already inherently VERY powerful and the best levers we have for 'control' are at the settlement level. The reason for both the division of classes/roles among settlements and the fealty systems (companies and settlements) is to to encourage friction and conflict even within alliances. Settlement level is where are best social and mechanical 'controls' come into play. Nations have the potential to seriously shift the powerbase in The River Kingdoms so we need to make sure their mechanical benefits are significant but different from the mechanics of settlements. What we dont want is for a player nation to be able to circumvent the restrictions placed on settlements.

But YES pop it up there and we can thrash it out down the line!

Goblin Squad Member

Nice! Thanks for all the info Tork.

Goblin Squad Member

Tork Shaw wrote:
... I was busy doing a wee playtest with Stephen and Bob. Which went well, you might be interested to know! I think Bob was the only one to die...

By all means, I'm happy to do the research and come to a better understanding myself. And I'm sure we all feel bad for Bob (but I don't have a link for Bob's posts, hint hint).

Tork Shaw wrote:
Yes its true that you will not be able to be in a settlement with EVERY class. This is a deliberate design choice.

We'll never stop dreaming :)

Goblin Squad Member

Tork Shaw wrote:
... sorry, I'm just doing some bug writing!

I lol'ed :)

Goblin Squad Member

Bob Settles wrote:
...

And now I have a link for Bob's posts! Hi, Bob :)

Goblin Squad Member

Tork Shaw wrote:
<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Tork Shaw wrote:
Yes its true that you will not be able to be in a settlement with EVERY class. This is a deliberate design choice.

2 questions, if you don't mind:

1) How do nation-level structures impact this?
2) Is there any power level disadvantage at all between a character who can train their class in their settlement, versus a character who trains with an ally and has a support structure in their settlement? Meaning, can support structures support the entire range of abilities that can be trained?

Thanks

Quick answers, sorry, I'm just doing some bug writing!

1) TBD. In principal the only advantage nations have is that they can freely move between/train between/and gain preferential training rates between associated settlements. Each settlement will still need to provide support structures for their members.

2) A quick example : The Cleric training facility is the Temple. It is a medium sized structure. The Temple can be leveled up to offer Cleric specific feats up to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The Cleric support structure is called the Graveyard. It is a SMALL sized structure. It too can be leveled up to support Cleric specific feats to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The building that trains Cleric (and paladin and likely druid/ranger/oracle) orisons/spells is called the Seminary. It is a medium sized structure. It can be leveled up to offer Wizard specific feats up to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

The support structure for the Seminary is called the Mission. It is a SMALL sized structure. It too can be leveled up to support Seminary skills (including all the classes the seminary supports) specific feats to 1st, 2nd, then 3rd tier.

SO - a settlement who wants to fully trains Clerics needs a Seminary (medium) and a Temple (medium).*

A settlement who wants to fully SUPPORT clerics needs a Graveyard (small) and Mission (small).

In both cases to support them fully they would need to upgrade those buildings with tier 2 and 3...

Amazing information, but I fear it has caused me to ask more questions.

1)Slotting a settlement: How many buildings can we put up? For simplicity lets say I'm asking like this: Small = 1, Medium = 2, and Large = 3. If each number corresponds to the number of "plots" a settlement has, then how many "plots" will each settlement have and is there a way to attain more?

2)I glanced through a comment earlier in this thread that stated POIs will offer some support structure (Assuming I know what I am talking about Support Structures allow players of that settlement to use their trained abilities?) Does this mean that Settlement will be able to expand what kinds of citizens can live there(Not train) by establishing POIs and conquering more territory?

Goblin Squad Member

I appreciate all the clarifications. I like being competitive so being held back (from a skill tier perspective) in my chosen play style isn't appealing to me. It looks like there will, hopefully, be ways to prevent that from happening.

I'm looking forward to making friends/allies with the groups that will provide the necessary training. I'm sure I'll be spending plenty of time in Elkhaven for sure; and Tavernhold beyond.

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