Would you allow a Rogue magically transformed into a tiny animal to get his sneak attack damage on a medium sized Character?
Would a bat rogue be able to sneak attack an ogre?
I don't see anything against it in the rules. The situation came up in a game recently and it just seemed a little 'off'.
I just want to get a feel for other opinions.
As long as the ogre is denied its Dex he can sneak attack. Transforming into a tiny animal wouldn't make it any easier to sneak attack, though. Actually, it would probably make it harder to sneak attack, since,with a 0ft reach, it would be difficult (impossible?) to flank.
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Then again, most people would be caught flat-footed when attacked by a bluejay, not to mention butterflys.
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Yes, you can still sneak attack - although remember he has 0ft reach.
The rules don't make a lot of intuitive sense when you are transformed into a tiny animal (if you had a decent STR score to begin with you're probably still stronger than the average human as a mouse), so you'll just have to run with it. You can think of it cinematic style where the bat swoops in and tears at his eye at the right time, toppling him into a rock or similar.
Being tiny does not automatically confer sneak attack damage. You still need to get it through normal means, except that tiny creatures cannot flank since they don't threaten squares next to them.
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Then again, most people would be caught flat-footed when attacked by a bluejay, not to mention butterflys.
No one suspects the Butterfly, mwah,ha,ha!
In all seriousness, though, tiny animals wouldn't any gain advantages like this. If combat hadn't yet started, disguising himself as an animal might afford a Rogue a surprise round, but that's it.
Right in the heel, ouch.
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It depends.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.
It is certainly easier to imagine a bat flying at the ogre's face, where the eyes and throat are options, than a rat finding much of a vital area around the ankles (achilles tendon, maybe).
So, instead of a hard and fast "yes" or "no," I suggest deciding more on a case by case basis.
Being tiny doesn't, by itself, prevent sneak attacks in general.
But at that size you would be small enough that you can enter your opponent's space
Or you can take Lunge and get 5 foot reach
But at that size you would be small enough that you can enter your opponent's space
Not only can you enter your opponent's space, but you must to reach him.
But just being in your opponent's space, or able to reach your opponent, doesn't guarantee you can feat the opponent's vital areas. A rat entering your square isn't climbing up your leg to attack your groin.
I don't think the line is meant to be something a DM uses to screw over the Rogue, and you should almost always be able to sneak attack under the appropriate conditions.
But depending on circumstances, it can be appropriate to say no sneak attack because biting the end of his toe just isn't vital enough.
And when is the last time the rogue couldn't sneak attack a giant opponent simply due to size differences?
Achilles tendons are also vital spots. As are knees, and they would likely still be in reach.
And when is the last time the rogue couldn't sneak attack a giant opponent simply due to size differences?
When his DM told him he couldn't. So probably 10 seconds ago in a game somewhere. :P
Achilles tendons are also vital spots. As are knees, and they would likely still be in reach.
I don't know how tall you are, but a rat certainly can't reach my knee.
I will take this opportunity to point out, again, I am not saying you should automatically prevent sneak attack in any particular situation, only that the rule requiring you to reach a vital area is a rule, and thus it can apply as the DM sees fit.
According to the size charts, Tiny is 1-2 feet tall. 2 feet is higher than my knee, and I'm 6'3". Rats as we know them would count as Diminutive (6" to 1'). Common rats in game are Tiny (take up 2 1/2 ft space) Either way, generally any creature has some kind of reach beyond strictly its size, including possbile acro checks to jump a foot to hit something. Think large house cat, and if a house cat wanted to intelligently attack you, do not consider your lower half - especially your crotch, safe.
And in games I've played I've never come across problems with halflings not being able to sneak attack large size creatures either, which is also a 2 step size difference. Straight RAW, fear the diminutive Sprite with lunge, nothing like a piranha strike attacking dervish dancing 9" tall 10th level swashbuckler doing 1d2-4+22 (22 dex and no magic items) with a 4" long scimitar and actually threatening the squares around it (or at least an 11ftx11ft area, which still means 4 squares total).
Some things don't scale with size, and it's more a problem with RAW and fixed values than the size issues. Then again even a 1" scalpel blade can be pretty deadly.
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You gonna deny a PC Sneak Attack against a Gargantuan, or Colossal creature?
Yes. Unless the PC is using a ranged weapon or other appropriate tactics then he can't reach a vital area to precisely attack.
Of course there are several ways for the smaller PC to achieve a precise sneak attack against the much larger opponent. Flying, for one. But a land-bound halfling isn't getting sneak attack with a dagger against a colossal dragon ordinarily.
WTH!?!?! That bluejay just stabbed me in the kidney!
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You gonna deny a PC Sneak Attack against a Gargantuan, or Colossal creature?Yes. Unless the PC is using a ranged weapon or other appropriate tactics then he can't reach a vital area to precisely attack.
Of course there are several ways for the smaller PC to achieve a precise sneak attack against the much larger opponent. Flying, for one. But a land-bound halfling isn't getting sneak attack with a dagger against a colossal dragon ordinarily.
I stab it in the radial branch artery in it's left foot. It's in reach from a halfling on the ground.
If you have sneak attack, you have sneak attack. It's more difficult to pull off if you are Tiny or smaller, as you can't flank. But if a target is denied dex to AC, you can Sneak attack regardless of size.
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Then again, most people would be caught flat-footed when attacked by a bluejay, not to mention butterflys.
Just some thoughts:
1. Opportunity Attack - Remember the target gets an opportunity attack when you enter its square. You can argue that they wouldn't know that the bluejay or butterfly is a shapechanged Rogue, but I think most people would swat at a flying creature that arrowed in on them, I know I would and I have reflexively done so in the past. Are you still flat-footed if your sword which you just used to swat the bluejay only wounded it? Or being in a magical fantasy realm would you immediately suspect something was off? Also, see #3 below.
You could get around this outside of combat by approaching the target in a natural fashion and hope they're not the type to step on mice or squish butterflies!
2. Attack - Make sure the creature you use has an attack. I'm not convinced a butterfly gets an attack that you can piggyback sneak attack off of. Not a big problem as many tiny and diminuitive creatures have an attack, but not all do.
3. Balance/Perception - If you're going to start doing stuff like this, remember that the opponents still get perception checks. Not to perceive the rat sneaking up on them (yes they get that), but more importantly to penetrate your disguise. Check the Polymorph Rules. Shapechanging into an animal or other creature using polymorph magic gives you a +10 on your disguise check. In roleplay, I've noticed that most GMs ignore this, but if you're going RAW, your opponents might make their perception check versus your disguise to notice that there's something off about that rat, butterfly or house cat. A good counter is for the Rogue to simply take disguise as a skill. Sense Motive might also be useful, haven't thought that one through... Knowledge Nature (or other appropriate) might also help... I'd let someone substitute knowledge Nature for perception to pierce the disguise.
4. Consequences - Just saying you should think this through. If this is so effective, you'd think you'd see it alot in the game world. Assassination would become kind of easy unless there were counters (e.g. the perception check in #3 above). Everyone just has to think it through as to how this does or does not affect their game world. There are ways to balance it as there are relatively few high-level Rogues with lots of sneak attack and there are probably relatively few people who can cast the necessary spells (or magic items to do the same), and the two won't necessarily come together. The Good Wizard isn't likely to be handing out Beast Shapes to any shifty looking Rogue that comes along (even if he has money to pay). Even a neutral Wizard might not if he thinks the Rogue is going to do something harmful in his or her town. Finally, if PCs use it alot, it'll probably become a signature tactic that opponents will expect from them as it's so out there is stands out.
Now I return you all to your thread...
You gonna deny a PC Sneak Attack against a Gargantuan, or Colossal creature?
Personally, probably not.
If you have sneak attack, you have sneak attack. It's more difficult to pull off if you are Tiny or smaller, as you can't flank. But if a target is denied dex to AC, you can Sneak attack regardless of size.
If you have Sneak Attack, you have to follow the rules for Sneak Attack; such as the target being unable to defend themselves, being able to see the target, and yes, being able to reach a vital spot.
The rules tell us under what circumstances the target is unable to defend themselves. The rules tell us what it means to be able to see the target. The rule don't tell us when you can/can't reach a vital area. But that doesn't mean reaching a vital area isn't still just as much a rule/requirement as the other two conditions, just that it is a DM call.
You gonna deny a PC Sneak Attack against a Gargantuan, or Colossal creature?Yes. Unless the PC is using a ranged weapon or other appropriate tactics then he can't reach a vital area to precisely attack.
Of course there are several ways for the smaller PC to achieve a precise sneak attack against the much larger opponent. Flying, for one. But a land-bound halfling isn't getting sneak attack with a dagger against a colossal dragon ordinarily.
Okay, okay, let's talk anatomy for a second.
You know action movies have lied to you right? Serious injuries to limbs, including the legs can kill. "Oh it is just another hit/shot to the leg" can actually lead to a rather important artery being torn, and a bloody death resulting from said injury while flopping around like a rather confused fish.
If the players want their sneak attacks to be chops to the feet, stabbing to the knee, puncturing the back of the leg and the femoral artery, or as a friend favoured, the falchion to the buttocks, do you really want to take away their fun with "you must be this tall to ride" the fun sneak attack train?
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I've also allowed tiny animals to coup de gras.
They thought polymorphing the cleric into a hamster would stop him from cdg'ing the held rogue. Muahahaha.
It didn't work, but earned the cleric in question a bizarre amount of respect as he dutifully tried to gnaw an artery open.
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If you have Sneak Attack, you have to follow the rules for Sneak Attack; such as the target being unable to defend themselves, being able to see the target, and yes, being able to reach a vital spot.The rules tell us under what circumstances the target is unable to defend themselves. The rules tell us what it means to be able to see the target. The rule don't tell us when you can/can't reach a vital area. But that doesn't mean reaching a vital area isn't still just as much a rule/requirement as the other two conditions, just that it is a DM call.
You might want to google the posterior tibial artery. You can easily bleed out from a sufficiently bad cut to there.
Imbicatus suggested the "radial branch artery of the left foot," but I'm not sure exactly what he was talking about (the word "radial" means "wrist," which is where the radial artery is located). But if you think about how many people can commit suicide by "slashing their wrist,".... well, that's basically the radial artery you're going for. And you'll bleed out faster from the tibial artery than from the radial, simply because there's typically more blood.
Cutting the Achilles tendon will keep you from walking; the hit point system doesn't cover this in tremendous detail, but it's (literally) a crippling injury and would be appropriately dealt with as a huge hp loss.
If you are tall enough to reach the knee -- which is not out of reach for a typical rat -- more options open up to you, including not only crippling injuries to the various tendons and ligaments, but also the lower end of the superficial femoral artery. Losing that can render a person unconscious in seconds.
More generally, I wouldn't advise any GM to attempt to impose "realism" based on anatomical knowledge if s/he doesn't have any.
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It was a quasi-facetious post designed to point out the issue of tying to apply humanoid vital areas to non-humanoid creatures.
Radial is from the wrist/hand, but dragons don't have wrists hands, at least not in a way that is comparable to humanoid anatomy.
Tying to apply this level of realism hurts the game and widens the martial/caster divide.
WTH!?!?! That bluejay just stabbed me in the kidney!
I believe there's a druid/assassin in the npc codex with this exact modus operandi for his death attack.
It was a quasi-facetious post designed to point out the issue of tying to apply humanoid vital areas to non-humanoid creatures.
I agree.
I have a reasonable layman's understanding of the anatomy of humans, although you'd probably want to get someone else to deliver the anatomy class at the Mayo Clinic. I'm also not bad at non-human mammals, partly because they're the same thing (the radial artery in a cat runs along the cat's radius, which as you might expect is located in their front legs, near the paws; the tibial artery runs along the tibia).
I'm not very good at the anatomy of tarantulas and other giant spiders. Their not having a conventional circulatory system, for example, limits my ability to identify the major veins. That's specialist knowledge I don't have, and I expect neither does my game master.
My knowledge of actual Huge giant spiders is effectively nil. I've never had a chance to dissect imaginary creatures. And the same applies to dragons. That's specialist knowledge that I believe no one has.
So I would be happy to accept a knowledge-based ruling from any GM who had dissected a dragon.
Do allow a medium creature to get sneak attack on a colossal one?
Same logic applies here.
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What about the other way round? Can a huge creature sneak attack a small one? Can it possibly target vital areas?
Yes it can, because we do not play a real world simulator.
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Would you allow a Rogue magically transformed into a tiny animal to get his sneak attack damage on a medium sized Character?
Would a bat rogue be able to sneak attack an ogre?
SRD saith;
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.
So, GM's call if the tiny animal can 'reach such a spot.'
An actual Bat might be handicapped by the 1d3-4 damage thing, which would drop it's attack to doing 1 pt. nonlethal damage, which would make all of the sneak attack damage also nonlethal damage, but a person polymorphed into a bat will probably have a higher Str score and be less likely to roll less than 1 damage.
An actual Bat might be handicapped by the 1d3-4 damage thing, which would drop it's attack to doing 1 pt. nonlethal damage, which would make all of the sneak attack damage also nonlethal damage, but a person polymorphed into a bat will probably have a higher Str score and be less likely to roll less than 1 damage.
That makes about as much sense as saying you don't get sneak attack damage because the base damage doesn't get pass the DR. It isn't two different damage pools it's just the damage you deal. If that is 1d3-4+5d6 sneak attack then it's that, not 1d3-4 meaning nonlethal then sneak attack.
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That is just cruel.
Seriously.
Beating down on the Rogue, and houseruling to make them less effective?
This is finding the smallest, wimpiest kid, with the coke-bottle glasses, and smashing his glasses, because you think it makes him see too well.
Even worse, this another attack on the martial PC.
I tire of this approach, that if you are not playing a full caster, you better bend over and take it, hard, because some DM wants it to be "realistic".
Then the Wizard alters time, space, and reality.
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I tire of this approach, that if you are not playing a full caster, you better bend over and take it, hard, because some DM wants it to be "realistic".
Especially since the apparent ruling isn't even realistic.
Basically, it seems to me to be one of the marks of a controlling GM who doesn't like players to be able to deal effectively with "his" monsters.
So, GM's call if the tiny animal can 'reach such a spot.'
True. But as a hypothetical player in this hypothetical game, I'd want a good reason why I couldn't reach "such a spot" given that they're damn near omnipresent in any realistic anatomy. You might be able to make a case for an animal such as an armadillo, all wrapped up in its ball.
Realistically, anything with an appendage capable of moving hard enough to hit has a method of moving that appendage, a method that can be targeted -- cutting the tendons in the hand, for example.
An actual Bat might be handicapped by the 1d3-4 damage thing, which would drop it's attack to doing 1 pt. nonlethal damage, which would make all of the sneak attack damage also nonlethal damage,
Citation? I don't believe this is actually supported by the rule text.
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Those diminutive candiru certainly can't inflict sneak attack damage on me, a big strong medium human.
Oh wait.
Seriously, if you have mental faculties, and the capability of doing damage, you can sneak attack.
Sneak attack can even help overcome the low damage output. It predicates the performance of poxing pixies what perforate for pete's sake!
They're tiny too!
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I'm with Orfamay Quest on this one. The damage becomes 1 point of nonlethal if the 'total damage' is below 1 hp. Sneak attack is part of the weapon damage, not a separately applied bonus like that of a frost weapon... not that doing 1 nonlethal + 1d6 cold damage isn't a hoot.An actual Bat might be handicapped by the 1d3-4 damage thing, which would drop it's attack to doing 1 pt. nonlethal damage, which would make all of the sneak attack damage also nonlethal damage,Citation? I don't believe this is actually supported by the rule text.
Sneak Attack damage is part of the weapon damage, So it all applies for overcoming DR, and it all applies for determining if the base attack does less than one damage and is thus non-lethal.
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So, GM's call if the tiny animal can 'reach such a spot.'True. But as a hypothetical player in this hypothetical game, I'd want a good reason why I couldn't reach "such a spot" given that they're damn near omnipresent in any realistic anatomy.
Rat stealthily walks up to ogre.
Rat climbs up ogre's leg.Rat stops at top of leg.
Ogre gets bitten in the 'vulnerables' (you know where I mean)
Rat proceeds to vomit violently at the thought of what it just did, but that is only of slight consolation to the ogre who is bleeding out.
I also must confess, applying realism to Martial characters I find most amusing. If I hit a wizard with an axe, can he no longer cast spells because his arm would be too damaged to make the 'intricate motions' associated with spells? Or did cracking his jaw with a hammer render him unable to speak? Shall he suffer bleed because he just got stabbed? Ongoing damage and movement debuff because running when you've got 10 arrows in your legs? Perhaps a caster no longer ever being able to cast because (lets be honest) if he's ever been reduced to 0 hp, odds are he's had enough damage that you should be looking at Regen, because I'm fairly certain that 'Ruined Organs' and 'Broken bones' have kicked in by now...
What? Not supported by the rules you say? Well nor is the rogue not being able to sneak attack because he's vertically challenged. Shall we continue playing?
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... Or did cracking his jaw with a hammer render him unable to speak?
Jawbreaker Feat: When you make a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent that is grappled, helpless, or stunned, instead of imparting any other Stunning Fist effect, you can cripple that opponent’s mouth, dealing normal unarmed strike damage and 1d4 points of bleed damage. Until the bleed damage ends, the target is unable to use its mouth to attack, speak clearly, and employ verbal spell components. A creature that is immune to critical hits or that has no discernible mouth is immune to the effects of this feat.
Yes, it is totally possible. That being said, sneak attack should always apply if the creature meets the requirements of flanking or denied Dexterity. The size issue is a non-starter.
EDIT: I support the sentiment of your post. I just really like the flavor of the Jawbreaker feat.
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An actual Bat might be handicapped by the 1d3-4 damage thing, which would drop it's attack to doing 1 pt. nonlethal damage, which would make all of the sneak attack damage also nonlethal damage,Citation? I don't believe this is actually supported by the rule text.
It's not. I was misremembering something from 3.X (or possibly just totally making it up!). PF Sneak attack rules clearly state, just a paragraph up from what I quoted about being able to reach a sneak attackable spot, that a nonlethal weapon-user can *choose* to inflict nonlethal damage with their sneak attack dice, or not.
So, GM's call if the tiny animal can 'reach such a spot.'True. But as a hypothetical player in this hypothetical game, I'd want a good reason why I couldn't reach "such a spot" given that they're damn near omnipresent in any realistic anatomy.
Rat stealthily walks up to ogre.
Rat climbs up ogre's leg.
Rat stops at top of leg.
Ogre gets bitten in the 'vulnerables' (you know where I mean)
Rat proceeds to vomit violently at the thought of what it just did, but that is only of slight consolation to the ogre who is bleeding out.I also must confess, applying realism to Martial characters I find most amusing. If I hit a wizard with an axe, can he no longer cast spells because his arm would be too damaged to make the 'intricate motions' associated with spells? Or did cracking his jaw with a hammer render him unable to speak? Shall he suffer bleed because he just got stabbed? Ongoing damage and movement debuff because running when you've got 10 arrows in your legs? Perhaps a caster no longer ever being able to cast because (lets be honest) if he's ever been reduced to 0 hp, odds are he's had enough damage that you should be looking at Regen, because I'm fairly certain that 'Ruined Organs' and 'Broken bones' have kicked in by now...
What? Not supported by the rules you say? Well nor is the rogue not being able to sneak attack because he's vertically challenged. Shall we continue playing?
Good points! If you actually add that type of realism and allow called shots, melee characters get very scary. We played the paizo drow campaign with sundering body part rules, and it was brutal. Spellcasters flopping on the ground, their jaws and legs broken.
Good times!
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So when I go walking the dog at night in the summer, is the reason I am not killed by the myriad of tiny unseen mosquitos that said pests lack rogue levels, or that they're simply not trying to kill me?
I would say there would be a level of size difference between two creatures that would essentially render the much, much larger one essentially immune to anything the much, much smaller one would be. I don't know if tiny vs. medium is a big enough gulf though.
But as always, if it's more fun one way, do it that way.
Would you allow a Rogue magically transformed into a tiny animal to get his sneak attack damage on a medium sized Character?Absolutely.
Exactly! When it happened to my gaming group it felt like a Monty Python skit.
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A mantis shrimp's talons can hit with the same force as a .22 bullet. Here is a picture (Warning, somewhat graphic) of an injury caused by one. At 10 cm long, a Mantis Shrimp is a diminutive creature. I'd say that was a pretty effective sneak attack, and not at all humorous or silly like the killer rabbit scene.