Design Manager
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So, I gave up on actually assigning experience points a while back as a bit of an experiment. I was hoping to curb the "murder hobo" tendencies that were arising in some of our games along with a "we're going to need to kill this thing sooner or later anyways" outlook.
So I took away xp and replaced it with a milestone and completion chart for the adventure that allowed the party to gain levels by resolving major plot points or story arcs, and a separate tracker for side quests where they gained roughly a third of a level for each completed side quest. It's actually worked out very well, and I find the party is much more likely to explore solutions that involve diplomacy, intimidation, redirection, misdirection, etc. than thy ever did previously. I've also drastically reduced the number of unplanned NPC deaths which is a plus.
Has anyone else tried this? Did you have positive results? Or do you prefer using the experience point system, and if so, why?
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Has anyone else tried this? Did you have positive results? Or do you prefer using the experience point system, and if so, why?
I have tried it, and did have positive results. Unfortunately I haven't convinced my main weekly group, so I play mostly with xp.
I use XP, but I tell my players up front it is a reward for surviving the encounter, not for killing an enemy, and that they're more likely to get bonuses through RP.
Strangely enough, that seems to work. Of course, they're still murderhobos a lot of the time, but that's usually due to character personalities and not due to the benefits it brings (they could make more money and experience being diplomatic and they know it).
I have tried without XP, and found the players complained because there isn't an easy way for them to track their own progress.
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I use XP. My players know they will get it for solving an encounter, be that killing something, talking their way out of, or otherwise resolving it.
I stuck to XP, as we have regular, but short sessions. That way I can give them something ever session and even if there was no significant loot or apperant progress, they still get something of an reward.
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I haven't been playing with XP for a while in my real life campaign; it really doesn't serve a purpose beyond giving players an idea of when they're going to level up and sometimes creates level discrepancies. We've just resorted to leveling up after X number of sessions, which saves time doing math and dealing with some players having more experience than other players.
I use xp because it's fun for players. It's essentially part of their loot in my eyes. That being said, I do give them experience if they find a way around a potential threat. Typically with less xp as a reward because these methods are usually much faster than fighting in real time. I like to think that the longer the players do something in real time, the more the reward should be.
My group doesn't use XP.
Well I always awarded the same xp regardless of wether or not there was violence. If the players sneak past the guards instead of fighting them, xp as if they fought them.
But I have since stopped using xp. Its just not worth it. Instead I level characters when they reach milestones in the story.
Then again I have also cut treasure mostly out of the game, with the idea that I want rewards to be personal and story based and not material. I do however aware hero points much the same way I used to award bonus xp, when the players do something cool, or creative, or theres a really awesome moment in the story/good roleplaying.
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3 xp per level, right?
I only use xp in Pathfinder Society. In my home campaign, I'm running an adventure path that gives recommendations for approximately what level the PCs should be at various points, so I've just told them to level up at logical stopping points that go along with those. It works pretty well.
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In my RL group and 50% of the online groups I play we just level up, when the GM says so. In the other 50% of the online groups we usually get 1/3 of the XP needed for the next level. If a player misses an evening he gets a 50% bonus until he is around the xp of the rest of the group.
I started to prefer to first option, because I never really cared about the number of xp I got.
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"Still use" XP? You make it sound like getting rid of XP is a logical, natural extension of roleplaying, and that if one "still use[s]" it, one is an immature RPGer. I don't particularly like the implications in that statement.
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I love exp. I always add little rewards for killing blows and impressive tactics. It makes games feel less like wargaming and more like annadventure.
But innmy wrath of thenrighteous game i dictate whennthey level up because the game requires me to do too much work to level monsters up to.the group when i can do the opposite.
I also like xp because it creates incentive to show up to sessions. You dony show you lose out on exp.
"Still use" XP? You make it sound like getting rid of XP is a logical, natural extension of roleplaying, and that if one "still use[s]" it, one is an immature RPGer. I don't particularly like the implications in that statement.
He isn't implying the experience system is outdated, but that he doesn't use experience. I've never really seen a great use for experience in home brew campaigns.
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Design Manager
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"Still use" XP? You make it sound like getting rid of XP is a logical, natural extension of roleplaying, and that if one "still use[s]" it, one is an immature RPGer. I don't particularly like the implications in that statement.
I certainly wasn't attempting to imply anything by the question, though in my personal experience getting rid of XP is a logical, natural extension of roleplaying. It's an abstraction of the game whose only mechanical purpose is essentially to keep track of your progress, and I've found in my games that it's easier to build that assumption of progression into the story. I've found that there are a lot of players (as evidenced by some of the responses here) who came to similar conclusions as I did about how valuable the xp system was to their particular campaign. I was curious about the people who came to that conclusion, and who didn't, and the reasons on both sides. Is it to maintain the sense of achievement? Does it make it easier for you to track things if you use xp in your home game rather than milestones? I know two groups with rotating GMs, one of which uses milestone leveling to advance the party because it's easier than trying to track xp through multiple GMs and adventures, and another group who uses xp for the exact same reason. It's just interesting to know how and why people handle advancement in their games.
That being said, it's probably better to ignore a thread if you find you disagree with it than to come in looking for a fight.
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I use a variant of xp with much smaller numbers. It takes 15-20 points to level up. The group gets 1 point for overcoming small problems, the kind that can be solved with 1 or 2 skill checks, or a trivial fight. 2 points for an average encounter that shouldn't seriously endanger anyone in the party. 3 points for a particularly dangerous or climactic fight. Bonus points for defeating an encounter in a particularly creative way or for completing a goal set in advance by the players with me like "we want to own a boat/tower/guild!"
I like it because it's less arbitrary than GM whim but the calculations are easy. Players see the next level approach in a consistant, reasonable way. I never really had a problem with players picking inappropriately easy fights to collect the rewards but I suppose it would discourage that.
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Outside of my PFS games I've actually never been in a campaign that was hard and fast XP. When I was a kid and my dad ran games he used a general "you level up after each adventure" (we didn't play often so that was fine).
Once I was playing in college tracking xp became too much of a hassle when people would miss a session or two for perfectly understandable RL reasons--i.e. having a test in the morning to prepare for--and it seemed messed up to punish people for having real lives or having their priorities straight.
For home games, what I've basically settled for is having the GM keep track of about how much xp the party should have, and have them level at an appropriate spot i.e. after a big boss fight, assuming they're within 10% one way or the other where they would have leveled by straight xp. Adventure paths are great for this, since they give you recommendations for what level the party should probably be before they reach each chapter.
That said, tracking xp the official way is a perfectly fine way to go, especially if you're giving xp rewards for creative thinking and good roleplaying like others have mentioned above.
We love XP. We'll never be getting rid of it. We like seeing that 'tangible' form of progression.
(And, we still use 3.5's [superior, in our opinion] item creation system, so XPs are used there, too.)
"Still use" XP? You make it sound like getting rid of XP is a logical, natural extension of roleplaying, and that if one "still use[s]" it, one is an immature RPGer. I don't particularly like the implications in that statement.
Assume best intentions, Scholar.
My group used to have a "kill everything" mentality when they found out everything technically had a CR and thus an XP value.
After a run-in with a nunnery, and a subsequent conversion to an Evil campaign, I decided to start using pivotal moments in the story to simply level up my players. It's made the game have a more realistic feel, which I've been trying to get to for a while, and now my players are really having a ball roleplaying instead of finding what to kill next.
Though, I still enjoy XP for games where I don't DM, mostly power-gamey min-maxy ones some of my colleagues play, where every second party member is a summoner or SAD caster.
Both are hilarious and fun in their own right, and I enjoy not and also having the system.
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I use a variant of xp with much smaller numbers. It takes 15-20 points to level up. The group gets 1 point for overcoming small problems, the kind that can be solved with 1 or 2 skill checks, or a trivial fight. 2 points for an average encounter that shouldn't seriously endanger anyone in the party. 3 points for a particularly dangerous or climactic fight. Bonus points for defeating an encounter in a particularly creative way or for completing a goal set in advance by the players with me like "we want to own a boat/tower/guild!"
I like it because it's less arbitrary than GM whim but the calculations are easy. Players see the next level approach in a consistant, reasonable way. I never really had a problem with players picking inappropriately easy fights to collect the rewards but I suppose it would discourage that.
I like this. A lot.
In fact, I think I'm going to ask my players about this next session.|
Design Manager
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Once I was playing in college tracking xp became too much of a hassle when people would miss a session or two for perfectly understandable RL reasons--i.e. having a test in the morning to prepare for--and it seemed messed up to punish people for having real lives or having their priorities straight.
This is one of my big reasons for preferring the milestone style of leveling up as well. A lot of times if someone missed a game because of tests, Guard duty, unexpected overtime, etc. we just end up giving them the xp anyways so that we're not, as you say, punishing people for having their priorities straight and taking care of real life. It's a pretty small step from there to milestone leveling.
The APs really seem to encourage milestone leveling as well, since it's a lot easier for me to go in with a couple sticky notes and put "Party should be 4th level by next chapter, this would be a good spot to rest and let them level up". It helps cut down on the variance you see sometimes where the party misses a couple side encounters, or has one more member than normal so they're actually not leveling up until after a boss fight that anticipated them having access to more powerful options than they actually did.
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I don't use XP when I GM. I prefer leveling up after X many sessions. This helps the game run more smoothly and faster , not having to stop and track XP. It also works better for leveling as you level up at the end of the session, again , saving game time and also giving the players something to do out of session.
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We love XP. We'll never be getting rid of it. We like seeing that 'tangible' form of progression.
(And, we still use 3.5's [superior, in our opinion] item creation system, so XPs are used there, too.)
I can definitely see the value in keeping it in place for a system where it has mechanical functions beyond advancement tracking. I kind of liked that in 3.5 it was a spendable resource; not only did it make magic items a bit more "precious" it served some other balancing functions between casters and non-casters.
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Calculating xp was always annoying in AD&D.
I much prefer simply levelling people up at story appropriate times and not adding more needless number tracking. The suggested level points in the adventure paths are generally good guides and feel reasonable so far.
How does the hero point system work out for you, Kolokotroni? The one time I've used it, my players usually hoard them so I've been really reluctant to try it again in my sessions.
Pretty well, it takes some getting used to, and in particular the first time they would have gotten one but cant because they are already at 3 means they'll start spending them. I also changed the 'save from death' from 2 points to 1. That was an issue. They often wanted to make sure they had 2 in reserve for that. So making it just 1 point made them a bit more free. Also handing them out more often is also important. Particularly if its something they can control. For instance I give them for an in character campaign journal, or an illustration/image/painted mini of your character.
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Going on 5 years now without XP has not been an issue. I wanted the players to stop thinking murder was the only way to advance. Been a sweet sweet sucess. So long XP dont miss you.
I will admit that my group really gets into the adventure plots. They enjoy the adventure a tad more than leveling or tracking progress. They know its going to happen so no worries. We also prefer lower level gaming in PF. So far the advancment tracks in the APs has been good enough for us.
Anything homebrew I did away with XP, but the time I ran an adventure path I used it. I generally prefer without though as I make the levels come quickly early on and slowly dial them back at mid and higher levels.
In my homebrew games I simply level everyone up after each lengthy session.
In our adventure path games, we track XP.
A friend of mine used to use story milestones rather than XP. Drove me crazy, because I would always forget and inevitably ask "how much XP did we get" at the end of each session, only to be met with dead stares or abrupt laughter.
In my homebrew games I simply level everyone up after each lengthy session.
In our adventure path games, we track XP.
A friend of mine used to use story milestones rather than XP. Drove me crazy, because I would always forget and inevitably ask "how much XP did we get" at the end of each session, only to be met with dead stares or abrupt laughter.
Oh man, I'd love if one of my players do that. I'd totally borrow from whose line is it anyway. A million! but the points dont matter.
I use XP regularly and awkwardly.
How does the hero point system work out for you, Kolokotroni? The one time I've used it, my players usually hoard them so I've been really reluctant to try it again in my sessions.
Isn't the maximum of Hero Points you can save at a time three?
... Guard duty, ...
Completely irrelevant to the topic, but out of curiosity are you still in?
I use XP with my group, never really been tempted to go story-based for advancement, none of my players have expressed any thought one way or the other.
Though my players are very often cheeky about asking for treasure and XP. The running joke is that they ask at the start and end of each session.
For 3.x games sometimes, for OSR games all the time.
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How does the hero point system work out for you, Kolokotroni? The one time I've used it, my players usually hoard them so I've been really reluctant to try it again in my sessions.Isn't the maximum of Hero Points you can save at a time three?
... Guard duty, ...Completely irrelevant to the topic, but out of curiosity are you still in?
Not any more. Had a cliff decide it didn't want to be under where I was standing anymore when I was deployed and had to have my knee rebuilt.
To the topic and Hero Points though, that seems like a really cool way to award temporary bonuses for really thematic or courageous moments without creating imbalance between the characters or messing with the game progression.
I've never actually used them before, are they pretty easy to run and adjudicate? I remember Eberron had something similar and I recall liking it.
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I use XP. I find using milestones puts too much control into the GM's hands.
It's the exact same amount of control. The GM determines XP awards, so there's no reason to use it.
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When I was younger, my friends and I could only get together about once a month, so we just did a level per day-long session. Now we use online tools, so gaming has become weekly.
Both times I have run an AP, I just kept the PCs in line with the current part of the story. I have found that everyone gets bored with you try to do "filler" monsters to keep the XP in check. So once they hit the story beats, they level.
I am using XP for the first time with the home-brewed campaign I am running now. They get the XP immediately after they defeat whatever it is they are fighting. They decided themselves that everyone would receive the same amount of XP whether or not a player was able to make it to the session, so no one falls behind.
I was struck by how fast they are leveling using XP. Granted we are using the fast XP track, but still, they are going pretty quick. I've had to change some events in the campaign, simply due to them being overpowered based on where I thought they would be.
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We dumped it a decade ago. Best decision we ever made. We just rank when the story is done, and then pass the hat to the next Player-GM with a story to tell.
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I haven't used XP in a while except for the last couple months with a new group...I don't really see the point. It was different when you used XP to craft or for spells or whatnot...you need to track it. Now I personally like leveling every couple or 3 sessions without the GM having to do the math and the players all tracking a goofy number that the GM gives them to get them to a level. What's the point? If the GM wants you to level slower he can just give less XP so you are still leveling when the GM says to. I don't need another unnecessary number to track.
I don't think my group has used xp in six years.
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Apologies. I was thinking about Unearthed Arcana's action points and called them hero points. I haven't tried Pathfinder's hero point system, which I'm assuming is what everyone else is talking about when they say 3 max. With action points, you started with 5 at first level. The most you could have was 5 plus half your level. They seldom used their points to affect things and I tried throwing things at them to make them spend those points or would be constantly reminding them that they could change the outcomes of bad rolls or boost spells, but they almost never used them.
Not any more. Had a cliff decide it didn't want to be under where I was standing anymore when I was deployed and had to have my knee rebuilt.
Ouch - sorry.
To the topic and Hero Points though, that seems like a really cool way to award temporary bonuses for really thematic or courageous moments without creating imbalance between the characters or messing with the game progression.
I've never actually used them before, are they pretty easy to run and adjudicate? I remember Eberron had something similar and I recall liking it.
My GM had a variant of this before we even heard of Pathfinder, so it was a very smooth transition. The three point maximum works out pretty well, in my humble opinion. It allows for cool "narrow escape" moments, for instance, without outright dominating play. Meaning, I worry that without a minimum players might hoard their Hero Points for high CR encounters and could potentially turn a dramatic final encounter into something much more ho-hum.
As for adjudication? I actually think this is one of the few parts of the game that shouldn't* generate debate. :)
* Well, with the exception of one effect...
Why is experience only being associated with killing creatures? Defeating an encounter is done in several means. Talk your way out of a fight, stealth around an encounter, intimidate a creature into running from you, disarm a trap, find a trap and set it off with a means to keep players safe, or just walk into a trap and don't care as many people find traps not worth putting effort into avoiding, sleep a creature and walk away, color spray and walk away, just walk away.
Maybe the problem with murder-hobo is that GM's aren't awarding experience for anything other than killing creatures.
I'm more a fan of awarding experience on top of the things you simply kill. Players using creative means to solve problems are gaining experience. Role playing should be awarded experience. After all experience points are just a representation of the accumulation of life experiences.
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I use SKR's Step system for alternate XP. Basically each session we play is worth 1/4 of a level. Each night at the end (or sometimes in the middle of a lengthy night) the Players get to choose either A) HD & BAB, B) Saves, C) Skills, or D) Special Abilities from their class chart.
I like it because my players tend to fall into the high reward spectrum and they get to improve their characters a little each game. It also means I can do away with some of the meaningless combat encounters in published adventures that are only there to pad the XP numbers in order to level. We generally play 20 pt. buy and have 5-6 players so I have to adjust most adventures to suit anyway.
--Vrock, Paper, Scissors