Champion enchantment + UMD 21


Rules Questions


Am I right that if I have UMD 21 or greater... then the champion enhancement will grant a +2 sacred bonus to AC vs.... everything.

UMD is not an action.
So, I UMD having smitten all creatures in my sight.
The item is automatic, not activated.


Nope.

"You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item." - UMD skill description

You aren't activating the champion enchantment. Furthermore, it triggers against things targeted by a class ability. At most, UMD can emulate the fact that you have the feature, not actually using the feature. So you wouldn't have any targets upon which the enchantment acts.


"Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment."

Yeah. Read the next sentence.


You still have to follow sentence one: "activate a magic item". You aren't activating the armor.

Even ignoring that. Lets say you can emulate having "smite evil", Champion doesn't need that. Champion requires you to target a creature with smite evil. You don't emulate having used it, just that you have it in order to pass a "must be able to..." qualification.

Same thing with greyflame weapon enchantment. You can UMD that you have channel energy, but you can't UMD that you have uses of channel energy and you can't UMD that you use some of those charges to fuel greyflame.


I guess my point is what item does emulating a class feature actually work for if you cannot use it the way you suggested?

"This armor special ability works only for good creatures with the challenge ability (such as cavaliers) or the smite evil ability (such as paladins, half-celestials, and creatures with the celestial creature template).

A wearer with one of these abilities gains a +2 sacred bonus to AC against attacks from the chosen opponent."

Armor works only for Good creatures (I'm good) with the smite evil ability (UMD 21). Check.

A wearer with one of these abilities gains a +2 sacred bonus to AC against attacks from the chosen opponent. I choose everyone. Check.


I agree that greyflame is different. It requires you to actually channel.

Sczarni

Matthias_DM wrote:
A wearer with one of these abilities gains a +2 sacred bonus to AC against attacks from the chosen opponent. I choose everyone. Check.

Well, right there is the problem... you don't get to chose one. You DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE THE ABILITY. Much less to warp it around to choose "everyone" which is not even close to the proper use, much less the UMD use.


The part your missing is under never gives you a resource you dony have. If the requirement is "when worn by someone with the smite evil classes feature" your good. You don't need to actually use smite evil... just convince it every hour you have it.

However if it says "when the wearer targets someone with their smite evil class feature" under doesn't work because that isn't something you can emulate.

As a note I haven't read the ability just going off wording used by others. Couldn't find the ability.


I think this is exactly the problem with this sort of interpretation though.

Clearly, UMD was meant to work with items like this. You chould be able to gain the benefits of the item because you are "tricking" it into activating for you.

Here is why I chose this item, Maouse.

Because RAI, I feel as you do that the "+2 sacred bonus to AC against attacks from the chosen opponent" is referring to who you choose with Smite.

However, RAW it doesn't say that. It just says "chosen opponent." not "opponent chosen with the relevant ability"

Finally, I believe that RAI, UMD was meant to work with items like this. I think most people read too much into the whole "you aren't actually given the ability" portion of UMD.

Really, that is just there to stop me from ACTUALLY trying to smite or ACTUALLY trying to channel positive energy. It's not there to stop me from using this item, which seems like a legitimate RAI way to use Use Magic Device.


Champion Magic Armor Enchantment wrote:
This armor special ability works only for good creatures with the challenge ability (such as cavaliers) or the smite evil ability (such as paladins, half-celestials, and creatures with the celestial creature template). A wearer with one of these abilities gains a +2 sacred bonus to AC against attacks from the chosen opponent.


So you're saying that, despite the wording in challenge or smite evil about choosing a target, this item's special ability is using a generic "chosen" to indicate anyone the character wearing the armor feels like targeting? That's creative interpretation that every cavalier and paladin in the world would use if it were true.


The UMD check will trick the item into thinking that you qualify for its bonus as if you were a cavalier or a paladin, but you only receive said bonus when you actually use the Challenge or Smite ability. So even though the armor thinks you qualify, you will still never receive the bonus since you cannot activate the required class ability to gain said bonus.


Where does the item say I need to activate the ability?

It just says I must have the ability. I get a +2 AC against the chosen opponent.

RAW, I just have to make a choice.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MurphysParadox wrote:
So you're saying that, despite the wording in challenge or smite evil about choosing a target, this item's special ability is using a generic "chosen" to indicate anyone the character wearing the armor feels like targeting? That's creative interpretation that every cavalier and paladin in the world would use if it were true.

This.

If it worked the way you want it to Matthias, then those *with* the class feature don't need to actually smite or challenge, just "choose" opponents to gain the bonus against.

It doesn't work. It is not meant to work. UMD *was* designed to work with items like this, to let you bypass the good requirement, not the requirement to challenge or smite.


You need to actually use the feature. If you do not have that feature active the armor does nothing. Umd has no ability to fake an ability being used or active.


Matthias_DM wrote:

Where does the item say I need to activate the ability?

It just says I must have the ability. I get a +2 AC against the chosen opponent.

RAW, I just have to make a choice.

Ultimately it is the GM's choice. If the GM allows it, well, awesome for the players as it is a blindingly liberal interpretation but whatever works for the GM. However, take note that no one else in this thread, and no one else in the time since this ability was released, agrees with your interpretation. That's got to mean something.


Meh, I still think RAW it works. RAI, I believe you are right. Then again, RAI I believe that the below section of rules should take care of this problem as well.... allowing the items use.

Emulate a Class Feature::
Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

I am not able to use smite, but it lets me activate the item as if I had smite.

What item was this rule written for? Surely there must have been a reason to write this rule? Which item is it viable for?

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