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Ranger/Loremaster
Cloistered Cleric with Variant Channeling
Black Blooded Stargazer Oracle
Wave Rider Cavalier
Savage Warrior Fighter (better hope you roll a Half-Orc)
Psychonaut Alchemist/Master Chymist (this might not be weak enough)
White Haired Witch
Feral Child Druid (Human only, but it is probably the worst archetype for the class)
The Celebrity Bard archetype seems like it was mostly intended for NPCs, but I think maybe saddling a PC with it could be an interesting challenge in "how do I make this work."
I'm sure there are situations where drawing a crowd is really useful, but they don't seem that common.
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Crossbowman can be surprisingly effective if you take all the vital strike feats and use deadshot. If you PRC or into something with Sneak attack it becomes even better.That's kind of a mean thing to suggest. Crossbowman isn't good at all.
I've played one. It's not optimal when compared to a full attack build, but it can be effective. Crossbowman 7/Rogue x. Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Devastating Strike, + Sneak Attack, + 1/2 Dex Bonus, it can get pretty damaging on that one hit. When you ready vs casters, they can't cast because of the massive damage interrupt.
Denying Dex to AC is very useful.
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First World Summoner, bring forth your wimped out eidolon. Too bad we can't combine it with broadmaster.
Geisha Bard.
Dwarven cross blooded sorcerer.
Eh, first world summoner has its bit of charm. Specifically, the pugwampis on the second level of on their summoning SLA. Those little ....buggers...have a 20' radius effect called 'unluck aura' that makes you reroll every d20 and take the worse result. That is as good as the misfortune hex, and it is an constant AoE that has no save (although it doesn't work on mindless things).
It also has a rather easy to (ab)use loophole- you aren't affected if you have ANY kind of luck bonus (So half orcs and halflings can get by fairly easily). And even if you don't have that, it specifically tells you some easy options for over coming it (including divine favor, which is a level 1 spell for the religious casters, which gives a nice enough bonus to attack and damage). And since unluck doesn't affect animals (called out by the ability as being too dumb to work on), you could also spam some of those too to make things interesting.
So these are little critter that have a cirle 45' wide that can mess up your enemies' attempts to attack, use skills, do maneuvers, or make saving throws. And it is on a low enough summon spell that you can easily spam a good number of them. So it is fairly easy to tell them to spread out and cover the whole battlefield in unluck. This means that they can't all be taken out by an AoE blast...and the fact that they have only 6 hp is an advantage. They are so easy to take out....so that becomes the enemies' first priority, rather than (uselessly, due to the unluck) trying to fight your party.
So basically, treat the first worlder like a 1 trick witch (even if that trick is insanely good). Just have him sit in the background, casting buffs and summons and having his eidolon use wands or whatever.
I had a magnificently terrible time with a Weapons Master fighter who chose a two-handed weapon (the greatsword) as his weapon for Carrion Crown.
- No Bravery in an undead-themed campaign? I think it took until Module 5 for him to succeed on a Will save in combat. And he never once was targeted with a Disarm or Sunder attack. I think in the entire AP this saved him from one Grease spell, and cost him at least half a dozen barely-failed Will saves.
- Get rid of weapon training for a class of weapons for weapon training with a specific weapon. What now? Why is that better? Because it's 2 levels earlier?
- But wait! That got rid of armor training! So now you're slow and can't get to the fight on time.
Unfortunately, I still don't think this competes with the others. Reliable Strike was just too cool for words, and Deadly Critical helped end some fights.
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every character must enter a class appropriate Prestige Class.Is the appropriate prestige class tied to the archetype when the archetype is selected,or can a player select whichever class-appropriate prestige class they prefer once they have selected a class?
I see some people suggesting non-synergistic PrCs and I'm not sure if that's in keeping with the premise. I would think that players would optimize the heck out of their bad archetypes, which would involve making good choices for PrCs.
The prestige classes are secondary to the bad archetypes, as the players will need to reach around 6th level with these characters before the PrCs become meaningful.
That said, the intention was that the PrCs would give the character a further theme. These PCs while being under the curve will still be PFS characters and should be memorable by their role play as well as their mechanics.
I'm very happy with the responses we've got from this thread, and Tuesday the 24th is when the characters will be assigned to players. We may see some carry on threads from people trying to make Wave rider cavaliers viable in PFS.
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Some posters are asking about the PrC issue. A valid prestige class has to be "in theme" with the archetype, but also rubbish. Although you could argue that any PrC at least gives you release from the awful archetype you've been lumbered with so..
I didn't realise we were drawing the race out of a hat. I bet human won't even be in the hat.
Thank heavens we're not playing in Krynn, it'd be a party of Kender and Gully Dwarves.. hmm.. If I get gnome, I reckon kendering the character could be the way to go..
EDIT: Ah, Ninja'd by Chris. Hi Chris!
Ranger Trophy Hunter: a ranger archetype for gun, that don't give you a gun at level 1 and don't give you gunsmith... Good luck for the first level!
Oh! Crossblooded Stormborn/Aquatic Sorcerer PrCing into Master of Storms!
This party totally needs a Wild Rager in it. You could place bets on how long it would take for him to kill a party member.
Wishcrafters are pretty bad sorcerer archetypes. Wild Rager can be detrimental.
I contend that you're doing it wrong. Is my wishcrafter less powerful than some other archetypes? Sure. But is it the worst? Hardly. At 13th level I have a 10th level spell as a 21st level caster 3/day (basically an Epic Fireball: 21d6 Ref 30).
Try the Aberrant Bloodline on for size. It grants the sorcerer reach and immunity to critical hits and sneak attack. If a sorcerer is getting into melee, they're doing it wrong.
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Halfling Opportunist prestige class.
I actually have one of these in Society, just because it sounded interesting, but it's impossible to get the CMB high enough for the prc's defining power to actually work. The only thing this might work with is lore warden fighter, for the full BAB and CMB bonus from the archetype. All that just to get a special ability to work that isn't nearly as cool or special as it sounds at first. And the prc is clearly designed to be used with rogues (thus the bonus sneak attack damage).
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Everything I have seen here I don't think anything comes close to as bad as a monk with lots of vows. If you take chains, poverty, and peace you have the choice of a permanent -1 to ac and attack rolls, not being able to have more than one item of value, and not being able to attack first in combat or having no ki pool.
Well, you could be a Rogue...
Halfling Opportunist prestige class.
I actually have one of these in Society, just because it sounded interesting, but it's impossible to get the CMB high enough for the prc's defining power to actually work.
Combat Maneuvers aren't intended to be used on things of an appropriate challenge rating.
So that's why.
Siege Mage! "I'd be awesome, if only we were carrying a ballista..."
Luring Beast Rider Cavalier with an inappropriately sized mount--leave the mammoth outside the dungeon!
Wishcrafters are pretty bad sorcerer archetypes. Wild Rager can be detrimental.I contend that you're doing it wrong. Is my wishcrafter less powerful than some other archetypes? Sure. But is it the worst? Hardly. At 13th level I have a 10th level spell as a 21st level caster 3/day (basically an Epic Fireball: 21d6 Ref 30).
Try the Aberrant Bloodline on for size. It grants the sorcerer reach and immunity to critical hits and sneak attack. If a sorcerer is getting into melee, they're doing it wrong.
Recently, I've been thinking better of Wishcrafter, after realizing Wishbound Arcana can be used once per day per person instead of just once per day PERIOD.
However, how on earth are you getting that sort of Fireball damage at level 13?
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Halfling Opportunist prestige class.
I actually have one of these in Society, just because it sounded interesting, but it's impossible to get the CMB high enough for the prc's defining power to actually work.
Combat Maneuvers aren't intended to be used on things of an appropriate challenge rating.
So that's why.
Actually, see his point #4. It is possible to build a PC that's good at using a specific maneuver against appropriate rating challenge monsters, but you have to be willing to invest heavily in specializing in a particular maneuver.
The problem with the halfling opportunist's exploitive maneuver is that there are no such aids available. You can't make an exploitation specialist character the way you can a trip specialist or grappling specialist, because secondary things like Improved and Greater feats, weapons that give a boost, and magic items that give boosts for that specific maneuver simply don't exist. And then there's the fact that it's a 3/4 BAB prestige class designed to go with a 3/4 BAB base class (rogue), on a race that gets a strength penalty.
My own halfling opportunist is a dex based Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) 1/Rogue 4/Halfling Opportunist 5/Rogue x, and I already took the feat that lets me use my +6 dex instead of my +0 strength for my CMB. He's only level 6, so I've only played him twice since getting into the prestige class, but the exploitive maneuver hasn't worked once yet. I also didn't quite have enough cash for the CMB boosting ioun stone last time I played him, so I'm hoping that helps a little, but I still don't expect it to work very often.
I just don't play that PC very often any more. He's still not a bad dex based front liner, with his insane acrobatics setting up sneak attacks whenever he has a potential flank buddy around. So he's probably as good in combat as an average rogue, which is sub-optimal compared to a good barbarian or something, but not awful, but without as many rogue tricks. But half the point was that I was hoping to have some fun with the prestige class that ended up being nearly useless. If they had set it up to use acrobatics instead of CMB, it would have made just as much sense, and had a much better chance to being able to work. Instead, it's just a poorly designed prestige class.
Recently, I've been thinking better of Wishcrafter, after realizing Wishbound Arcana can be used once per day per person instead of just once per day PERIOD.
My group hasn't quite figured out how to ask for wishes yet. So I'm not worried about that. I've still got plenty of other spells I can use.
However, how on earth are you getting that sort of Fireball damage at level 13?
Elemental bloodline's 9th level power. It's not replaced by the Wishcrafter archetype.
It does [caster level]d6 of damage with a DC based on half caster level.
13th + 4(robe of arcane heritage) + 4 (favored class) = 21.
DC is 10 + (caster level (21) / 2) + (CHA + 2 (Ifrit Fire Affinity)) = 20 + CHA (28+2 -> 10) + 1 = 20 + 10 = 30
There's a ton of oracle stuff that is hard to optimize around. Deaf or Clouded Vision curse, half of the mysteries, any of the archetypes except dual-cursed (which is great just because of Misfortune).
Try the Aberrant Bloodline on for size. It grants the sorcerer reach and immunity to critical hits and sneak attack. If a sorcerer is getting into melee, they're doing it wrong.
I disagree with you; Aberrant is niche but hardly worthless. There are plenty of completely devastating touch spells and Aberrant is quite nice in that it lets you use them from longer than melee range without needing metamagic or spending a round casting (and knowing) Spectral Hand. As far as you shouldn't be in melee, that's not always something that can be helped and immunity to crits is nice even though it comes online at 16th at the earliest. Blindsight is also stupid good.
Try the Aberrant Bloodline on for size. It grants the sorcerer reach and immunity to critical hits and sneak attack. If a sorcerer is getting into melee, they're doing it wrong.I disagree with you; Aberrant is niche but hardly worthless. There are plenty of completely devastating touch spells and Aberrant is quite nice in that it lets you use them from longer than melee range without needing metamagic or spending a round casting (and knowing) Spectral Hand. As far as you shouldn't be in melee, that's not always something that can be helped and immunity to crits is nice even though it comes online at 16th at the earliest. Blindsight is also stupid good.
Point.
I'd offer up the Martial Bloodline, but it's not Paizo. :P
(Double checking the last version I had before the author submitted it to the store I skipped over one part, so it's not entirely worthless either: you do get full BAB at 15th)
Of course, that book also comes with the Battle Sorceerer which gets fewer spells and picks up Combat feats and light weapon/armor proficiencies.
Oh oh! Here we go. Battle Sorcerer with the Lycanthropic bloodline! I'm sure that combo would be awful. You don't get bonus to-hit and all your bloodline powers are melee based!
(This isn't to deride the author, some of the other bloodlines are very cool)
I was never a fan of the Cloistered Cleric archetype. You give up a domain and spell slots for a few bonuses with scrolls. Not that the scrolls don't add versatility, but it's a rather costly switch for what it gives.
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Well, I am disappointed that the psychonaut bard does not live up to the coolness of its name, at least not in Society play. Bombs do less damage and you get nothing directly to make up for that, the first things the archetype adds happen at level 5 and even then they're just more extracts added to your formula book, none of which are in the "must have" category.
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While no expert on the topic of classes and archetypes, I did see a lot of troubles with Freebooter Rangers as compared to even the vanilla option, let alone the few archetypes I've looked into. Has a lesser Inspire than a bard will ever have, gives up either hunter's bond or animal companion in favor of a truly lackluster ability, etc.
That said, though not in the region, I'd love to be in on this! Granted it would probably tick off everyone locally due to the bad archetype, but maybe we can all learn something in the process of my horrible imminent PC death.
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Go White Haired Witch going into Cyphermage.
There's very little that is worse or more non-effective then that.
And make it a Dwarf.
(Ironically, I'm playing a Dwarf WHW right now, and it's a lot of fun. But it's an *extremely tricky* build and requires a couple of Monk levels to make it close to viable.)