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Hey all, making another new class, a sibling class to the Strategist. Another TOB style class, this is the monk/mystic style of character. It's been a lot of fun designing, and I hope you all like it.
And for those of you looking for the techniques:
Looking for some feedback on both mechanics and techniques here for both classes, although feedback for the Strategist should go here.
Right now I'm still deciding which classes should get which schools, thinking of making Titan Fist Strategist exclusive, as each class should have its own exclusive style:
Strategist: Titan Fist
Hero: Elemental Incarnate/Shadow Heart
Champion: Steel Gospel
Forum ate my first post. Was a long one too. Hard to judge Technicians because your looking at a chasis and a pile of techniques in two differently places and techniques can be a big deal. Anyways, as far as the chasis goes...
Techniques and tiers could be formatted a little differently, at least merging the beginner tier or putting it closer to the techniques part that way you can see how many you get and what you get access to at level one without reading past the next two blocks of text.
I missed heroic potential's recovery method on my first read through, might mean it could find a better place in that section. The option to burn points for the day is cool, and the scaling doesn't look bad, but I kind of wonder if a more static cost might've made more sense, but that's nitpicking. At fifth level you might not be able to enjoy your talents that well, with 14 charisma(not an abnormal number imo) you might end up only being able to use your new awesome intermediate talent once per encounter and only have enough points left for one technique after. If for example you used a static 3 talent points at first and an additional one at 3rd and every three levels after on the other hand would give you 4 at that level. It also mentions a strategy point, that's a vestigial text right?
Heroes' calling gives a bonus to help with MAD, but that bonus is pretty small. The scaling for those things looks pretty unequal, because clarion commander uses your classes main bonus, but shadow heart uses another stat that would add to your MAD, and if your bonus is to strength your probably pumping that to begin with. That said, it'll probably only be a few points difference, but I've never been a fan of MAD. Also, Shadow Heart gives a cumulative bonus, but does that mean every round you move that you get more concealment and you can keep up the momentum from out of combat, or that its in combat and the number of rounds really matter?
Skill Artistry needs its text clarified to describe what giving a bonus to one skill equal to another means. Does that mean you use the ranks of another skill, or you can add in say... Your diplomacy(which you cranked) to your bluff(which you also cranked) to effectively have twice the bonus, and can I pick a bonus to the same skill twice?
Never Outmatched looks like name and fluff about hurting yourself don't look like they really add into its ability. The ability is actually really good for just burning down one foe, but not that great for taking down numbers or surviving. The bonus could also be pretty minor, especially for a guy who's only hitting once.
Anyways, I think it looks pretty cool, and I want to try it in a homegame to see how it plays out sometime, but not sure when I'll get a chance so all I've got to give is an at-a-glance look.
The problem with calling your class "The Hero" is that by default, one must make the inference that one cannot be a hero unless he has levels in the Hero class.
It's the reason why the misconception that only clerics can run religions when, in fact, anyone can be religious and take part in organized faith.
If possible, I would reconsider the name. Still looking at the class abilities.
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The problem with calling your class "The Hero" is that by default, one must make the inference that one cannot be a hero unless he has levels in the Hero class.
It's the reason why the misconception that only clerics can run religions when, in fact, anyone can be religious and take part in organized faith.
If possible, I would reconsider the name. Still looking at the class abilities.
I'll admit that's a sticking point that I'm thinking about changing, as well as Champion to Templar since it's basically the Paladin of the group. The name is a hard call, since the name kind of ties into the story I plan on making for the classes. I'm trying to stay away from other terms that other classes have used, and Hero is the hardest one for this.
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Thanks for the indepth look, it made me look over a few things in particular. And the reason techs are in a different place is that I have to change them so often with new ideas that it's hard to leave them in a consistent location, so once I finalize techs they'll be in the same section.
Hero looks cool, 2 good saves, 3/4 BAB isn't inherently bad, and D8 HD as normal. However 3/4 BAB can really hurt you when you don't have a way to bring it up, and only White Fang style really makes up for that by using natural attacks. It can really suck to miss, and it doesn't look like the guy has much to help himself hit things, and he's possibly MAD with 3-5 attributes.
I'll admit I need to think of a better way to bring up BAB, although Style Supremacy helps with that. It's less of an issue for this class though due to the lack of dependence on full attacks though, as generally a 3/4ths BAB isn't terrible at hitting on its first attack. I may have to look on possibly making Style supremacy scale though.
As for MAD, the class is technically as MAD as you allow it to be, since it's up to the play to decide how to focus on a style, but I can see how taking a little of everything could be tempting. It really does require a 14 in most stats to make a lot of things valid.
Techniques and tiers could be formatted a little differently, at least merging the beginner tier or putting it closer to the techniques part that way you can see how many you get and what you get access to at level one without reading past the next two blocks of text.
I missed heroic potential's recovery method on my first read through, might mean it could find a better place in that section. The option to burn points for the day is cool, and the scaling doesn't look bad, but I kind of wonder if a more static cost might've made more sense, but that's nitpicking. At fifth level you might not be able to enjoy your talents that well, with 14 charisma(not an abnormal number imo) you might end up only being able to use your new awesome intermediate talent once per encounter and only have enough points left for one technique after. If for example you used a static 3 talent points at first and an additional one at 3rd and every three levels after on the other hand would give you 4 at that level. It also mentions a strategy point, that's a vestigial text right?
That's fair, it's hard for me to judge things like that since I'm the one who wrote them. But are you saying a more static cost for burning points as opposed to just two for every burn? It was originally 1, but I felt that was too easy to abuse. I've set it so only one Style Point needs to be used for any tech, which actually puts the number up around the TOB number. Putting them at 2nd and every other is the idea for the Hero, as it's supposed to get more Style points to make up for its lower BAB, although I could do a static 3 at first level. And yeah, Strategy Point was from a previous draft.
Heroes' calling gives a bonus to help with MAD, but that bonus is pretty small. The scaling for those things looks pretty unequal, because clarion commander uses your classes main bonus, but shadow heart uses another stat that would add to your MAD, and if your bonus is to strength your probably pumping that to begin with. That said, it'll probably only be a few points difference, but I've never been a fan of MAD. Also, Shadow Heart gives a cumulative bonus, but does that mean every round you move that you get more concealment and you can keep up the momentum from out of combat, or that its in combat and the number of rounds really matter?
I actually decided to change it to a Wis class (ala Monk) which means its 'good styles' are White Fang/Peerless Archer, which I don't mind as much, since a 3/4ths BAB character would need help with either of those styles either. I could probably do something with Style Supremacy that helps MAD out a bit too though. And Shadow Heart was only supposed to give the bonuses until the beginning of the character's next round, clarified that now.
Skill Artistry needs its text clarified to describe what giving a bonus to one skill equal to another means. Does that mean you use the ranks of another skill, or you can add in say... Your diplomacy(which you cranked) to your bluff(which you also cranked) to effectively have twice the bonus, and can I pick a bonus to the same skill twice?
Oh wow, forgot how badly I worded this, just changed this to a straight bonus to a skill, mostly to make certain skills work better at higher level. Might change it later, since I'm not married to it, maybe something to help with MAD.
Never Outmatched looks like name and fluff about hurting yourself don't look like they really add into its ability. The ability is actually really good for just burning down one foe, but not that great for taking down numbers or surviving. The bonus could also be pretty minor, especially for a guy who's only hitting once.
Never Outnumbered was a last ditch effort although maybe the name isn't working great for it. It's meant for that 'one foe' you just can't handle, and there's quite a few techs that give the character multiple attacks, so as long as they're being smart about things, they could use this prior to a big White Fang tech and just rock face. But it's still on the chopping block for things to improve, as it was always a "I need a Lv 16 ability" kind of thing.
Thanks for the look, class is now The Strider, and let me know if you want to test it out, see what works and what doesn't. It's now able to use Peerless Sniper, Scarlet Bravo, Titan Fist, Elemental Incarnate, White Fang, Shadow Heart.
EDIT: A question, would removing Wis as a key stat for points hurt more in the long run? Like let's say I gave them 3 points to start with, but that removes increasing Wis to get more points. It's a hard call, since I'd expect the class to start with a +2-3 Wis bonus to begin with.
I'd contest your first point, Kyrt. Dismissing a class name as unimportant is a pitfall in design logic. It has no mechanical impact, but it's the first thing players and GMs are going to see, and sets up expectations of the class's flavor and strengths. If you're only making these for friends, then it's not something to dwell too hard on, but I feel that you want to sell these ideas as cool concepts for other people to try, which means that presentation should be taken into account.
I'm not trying to diss the class--you've put a lot of content into your technique-themed classes, and I think there is a functional core concept you are putting forward with the "Hero." But the name Hero -- and Strider -- did confuse me at first while I was reading. The first made me think of those cheery JRPG protagonists who succeed less through wisdom, more through extreme belief in themselves and other good vibes. The latter made me think of Aragon, and neither struck me outright as the monk/mystic type.
Those are, of course, just my impressions--I'm sure the terms mean different things to different people.
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I'd contest your first point, Kyrt. Dismissing a class name as unimportant is a pitfall in design logic. It has no mechanical impact, but it's the first thing players and GMs are going to see, and sets up expectations of the class's flavor and strengths. If you're only making these for friends, then it's not something to dwell too hard on, but I feel that you want to sell these ideas as cool concepts for other people to try, which means that presentation should be taken into account.
I'm not trying to diss the class--you've put a lot of content into your technique-themed classes, and I think there is a functional core concept you are putting forward with the "Hero." But the name Hero -- and Strider -- did confuse me at first while I was reading. The first made me think of those cheery JRPG protagonists who succeed less through wisdom, more through extreme belief in themselves and other good vibes. The latter made me think of Aragon, and neither struck me outright as the monk/mystic type.
Those are, of course, just my impressions--I'm sure the terms mean different things to different people.
It's always hard to find a name that works for everything, although I feel like I've gotten a good balance with Strategist and Templar.
I get that the name is important, and honestly the name Hero was intended to invoke that 'anime' hero sense, since it was kind of intended as an over the top anime monk class. Strider was more a reference to Homestuck's Dave Strider, but I can see how most people in this hobby would consider it more like Aragon.
The name I'm thinking of now is more on the nose, the Striker. It's literally what it says on the tin, but it's less flavorful. I'm all for opinions for names though, as well as opinions on the mechanics and such.
Also Technique Compendium has been made more clear, links to everything, and is just more intuitive. Going to design Master Tier Techniques for the rest of the Hero class now, hardest one's probably going to be White Fang since I'm crap about that.
These are great. One question: where can I find the stats for the rope gauntlet? I read this and immediately thought of Akuma from Street Fighter.
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These are great. One question: where can I find the stats for the rope gauntlet? I read this and immediately thought of Akuma from Street Fighter.
Glad to hear it, Titan Fist was kind of made as a Shotokan style, with Elemental Incarnate to finish off the fire ball style of it. As for Rope Gauntlets, they're a little known item from the Adventurer's Armory, really not a great weapon, but very thematic for what the class does.
Rope Gauntlet
Small 1d3/Med 1d4, 20/x2 crit, B (or S)
Description: Each rope gauntlet takes a full minute to wrap and another minute to soak, but once applied can be worn for a day; removing a rope gauntlet takes 1 full round.
When wearing rope gauntlets, you are considered armed and your attacks deal normal damage. If you are proficient with rope gauntlets, you may use the rough edges of the ropes to deal slashing damage rather than bludgeoning damage.
Your fingers are mostly exposed, allowing you to wield or carry items in your hands while wearing rope gauntlets, but the constriction of the weapon at your knuckles gives you a –2 penalty on all precision based tasks involving your hands (such opening locks).
I'm mostly working to make classes that can work for the more stylish/anime concepts out there. These are the kind of classes that should let you make anyone from Dante from DMC to Bayonetta easily.
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Playtest update: Tried it out this sat with some mutliclassing, played used a Hero 2/Strategist 4, so far Titan Fist seems like the most fun style, while Iron Defender seems like the most useful. I'm getting request for more 'multi hit' moves, which I might need to look into now.
Heroic Potential can now provide an attack bonus for expending a Style point, so it basically has a faux full BAB, but lacks the multiple attacks of a full BAB.
Might be taking Peerless Sniper from Templar, going to get to work on that soon, I'll post about that and probably put up some feats on the Technique Compendium later.