Questions about Monks


Advice

1 to 50 of 95 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge

Hello All-

I have a real problem coming up with character ideas that interest me. I have gamed, in some way shape or form, for over 30 years. During that time I have exclusively played fighters, primarily Dwarfs.

Recently, a friend talked me into trying a Rogue. I have and am having a blast with it. It's different having skill points for a change. But the one build I have put together I don't want to repeat over and over when I make a new character, like I pretty much have done with my fighters (different fighting styles, but similar in other ways). I don't see any other rogue 'type' that I'd find enjoyable.

Basically original character concepts are hard for me to find: what I want to do is find something with some new flavor to it. I am going slow progression with my two main characters to make them last longer, but that only lasts so long. I have relegated them for conventions only so they can live longer.

So, here in lies the problem. I have friends that I game with and I need to make a character I play outside of Cons that I can use with them. I have been involved with martial arts for a lot of years and thought, maybe, a monk may be interesting. But of course, though I have read every scrap there is to read about them in the PFS books, I still have no idea how to construct one, ability distribution wise, or the best way to run said combatant.

Basically, for anyone who doesn't mind, what is the best way to build/play a monk. I need to do something new and I think this may work. As a slight fact worth mentioning is that I really don't like multi-classing. I prefer the straight and narrow progression of a single class. So it's monk all the way. This character will be slow progression from the start so I won't have this problem again for a good while.

If this is the improper forum or is too long,, please don't criticize too harshly. I apologize.

Thanks in advance for all your help.


Firstly I hope you get some good advice on here.

Secondly I'm probably not gonna be that advice as I have never played a monk!

Finally I would say that one of (IMO) the greatest benefits of PFS is that you can "trial run" lots of different classes which is great if you are suffering from single-class-stick. My advice would be instead of slow tracking a monk to create a monk and use the normal track to advance him and see how you find him in regular PFS games (if this is an option) with the lvl 1 rebuild rules you can tweak him for the first 2/3 games. I'd also recommend going further and also creating one or two other characters, maybe a diving and an arcane caster and again using normal advancement. It might not give you that "time" with your characters you want, but its a great way to see if you like playing other classes. :)

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Have you checked out the Guides in the Advice section? There should be some good ideas there. There's a "Guide to the Class Guides" directory stickied in that forum that will point you to them.

Sovereign Court

There are several different types of monk with extrememly different builds. Here are a couple of examples

Strength monk - best damage - especially at low levels - uses a temple sword - mediocre AC.

Defense monk - between feats/high saves/monk bonuses - you can have gross defenses - being a wall for your team.

Manuver monk - doesn't do that much damage themselves - but can harass opponents with manuvers. If you take the right feats you can toss opponents around & poke them in their eyes to blind them etc. getting AOOs as you go.

While all classes have a spectrum of play styles - in some ways the monk has among the most extreme choices. However, they're easy to build badly. (though of note - they should all be Quigong - Quigong was basically a patch for monks to shore up their weaknesses)


If I might suggest: a sohei might be an interesting choice that can help to make character creation easier.

Essentially, one of the two main draws of this class is that, due to certain FAQs, it can flurry in light armor. This means that you can achieve a decent AC without having to invest heavily in wisdom. This decreases the stat burden, and as such you could easily invest in STR without too much worry.

The other main draw of this archetype is that it actually gets weapon training like a fighter. It gets these bonuses at levels 6, 12, and 18, and it allows you to pick from a small selection of weapon groups (monk, bows, crossbows, thrown, polearms, or spears). And once you have weapon training in a group, you can use those weapons in a flurry or ki strike (as in the ability that lets you weapons count as silver/cold iron at level 7).

Overall, the selection of choices is wide enough that it can accommodate many play styles. Want an archer? You can flurry and use the usual archery feats to send out a ton of arrows. Want to throw daggers? Feel free to send out a million? Want 2handed? You can do both a reach build or a crit fishing build (the nodachi, which is just a really big katana, is in the polearms group, oddly).

And heck, even if you just stick with the good old unarmed strike, you are better off. Since the weapon training is specifically called 'weapon training', it qualifies for dueling gloves for a untyped +2 increase in attack and damage. And since you can wear light armor, you could grab brawling armor property, which gives another untyped +2 to attack and damage. With weapon training, that is a possible +5 in attack and damage that normal monks will never see, and all this is before adding in things like the Amulet of Mighty fists.


what faq?


plaidwandering wrote:
what faq?

This one.

Note- you still lose the monk bonus AC while wearing armor....which is only a problem if you have wisdom in the 20's. Since a nice chain shirt matches an 18 WIS, and since you can generally enchant armor much easier than a +x WIS headband and much faster than monks give their scaling bonus AC, you are usually better off with the armor.

Especially since it is a magic item slot in its own right (a +2 to attack and damage on unarmed strikes for the same price as a +1 Amulet of mighty fists, and I still get that +1 to AC? Score)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

hmmm, a neat idea is to go strength monk and then go snake style and put a lot of skill points in sense motive. (it allows you to use sense motive for AC once per round i think, and some other bonuses involving sense motive such as using sense motive to confirm criticals)

if you're open to third party stuff there's an archetype that I found interesting. Youxia, which essentially felt like a monk with a dab of Oracle added. for instance you could get lay on hands to heal yourself as a swift action, or heal others. though, wisdom is much more important to youxia, so you might not get enough high rolls to play it well. also, they can't flurry, so they're more utility than throwing dice at enemies.

Sovereign Court

lemeres wrote:
plaidwandering wrote:
what faq?

This one.

Note- you still lose the monk bonus AC while wearing armor....which is only a problem if you have wisdom in the 20's. Since a nice chain shirt matches an 18 WIS, and since you can generally enchant armor much easier than a +x WIS headband and much faster than monks give their scaling bonus AC, you are usually better off with the armor.

Especially since it is a magic item slot in its own right (a +2 to attack and damage on unarmed strikes for the same price as a +1 Amulet of mighty fists, and I still get that +1 to AC? Score)

At low levels the armored sohei has solid armor (likely higher than a different monk - unless they have someone in the group willing to cast mage armor on them, in which case the sohei's AC is considerably lower) - but at higher level other monks' ACs are much better.

A Wis of 18 is equal to a chain shirt at level 1. At level 4 a Wis 16 is. At level 8 A Wis of 14 is etc.

And while +x Wis headbands are expensive - a monk can get bracers of armor every bit as easily as they can get their armor enchanted - which stacks with all of their monk bonuses. (including said +x Wis headbands - and any amount of dex bonus)

Plus the Sohei gives up a lot of monk abilites (stunning fist anyone?) and while some of those they give up are mediocre - if you go Quigong (and you should) - you're giving up the ability to trade out the medicore abilities for pretty sweet Quigong ones.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

At low levels the armored sohei has solid armor (likely higher than a different monk - unless they have someone in the group willing to cast mage armor on them, in which case the sohei's AC is considerably lower) - but at higher level other monks' ACs are much better.

A Wis of 18 is equal to a chain shirt at level 1. At level 4 a Wis 16 is. At level 8 A Wis of 14 is etc.

And while +x Wis headbands are expensive - a monk can get bracers of armor every bit as easily as they can get their armor enchanted - which stacks with all of their monk bonuses. (including said +x Wis headbands - and any amount of dex bonus)

Plus the Sohei gives up a lot of monk abilites (stunning fist anyone?) and while some of those they give up are mediocre - if you go Quigong (and you should) - you're giving up the ability to trade out the medicore abilities for pretty sweet Quigong ones.

Certainly some arguments, but still, it doesn't necessarily disqualify this style of monk.

For the bracers, I again fall back on the argument that you simply have more options for slots due to the armor. Since the armor can handle AC enhancement, you can grab gloves of dueling for another +2 to attack and damage at level 6.

Plus, the scaling bonuses to AC that monks get are supposed to mirror, to some extent, the growing enhancement bonus you get as you upgrade armor. So at level 4, a +1 chainshirt is equal to 18 wis, and a +2 chainshirt is equal to 18 wis at level 8. It is mostly a high starting wis (which can be painful on a point buy, and limit you to a defensive build) and a wisdom headband that can tip the scales. And since that usually only amounts to a couple AC difference....I'd rather grab the magical item slot found in magic armor instead.

I will agree.....stunning fist is a somewhat painful loss (no! don't leave me my beautiful dragon style!). The rest of the losses are mostly traded for weapon training....so 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other, as far as Qinggong/trade to get something better goes. The abilities traded out are spread out rather nicely, and it still leaves room to grab a few select ki powers (such as barkskin at level 4)

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

I'll almost always select an archetype when playing a monk. Some of my favorites-

High WIS "mystic"- Select the Sensei archetype and pick up the Mantis feats, along with Touch of Serenity. You can pour the vast bulk of your resources into Wisdom for great saves and defenses with the ability to target multiple defenses while buffing your allies. Replace abilities that don't make sense for you via the Qinggong archetype, which will be especially beneficial since you're so WIS focused. Biggest drawback - low attack damage. You'll be much more of a buffer/debuffer who specializes in tilting action economy further in your team's favor.

High STR "neckbreaker"- Tetori. this is one of the only really viable wrestlers in the game, and also has some capacity for preventing certain types of spellcasting like polymorph spells, above and beyond the normal advantage grapplers often provide vs. spellcasting opponents. Biggest drawback - giving this guy enough oomph to do his job well means you're going to have to give up something somewhere, and the most likely victim is your AC.

High DEX "nyah nyah nah nah nah" - Flowing Monk. You're a tripping machine and you can get your defenses very high, very easily. You'll probably want to grab Agile Maneuvers and/or Weapon Finesse right away.
Biggest drawbacks - like the Sensei, you'll be hurting in the damage department, and there's a fairly wide selection of monsters that are just untrippable after a certain level, so depending on the campaign you may find your favorite moves aren't as effective as you want them to be.

The Sohei and Zen Archer are also good, though they're going to feel a little less like traditional monks. The Sohei is closer to a Mongul horselord, and the Zen Archer... pretty much describes itself. The Sohei's stat distribution should look a lot like a Fighter's, without needing to shore up INT. Zen Archer needs primarily WIS with at least a 13 DEX.

Sovereign Court

lemeres wrote:
Plus, the scaling bonuses to AC that monks get are supposed to mirror, to some extent, the growing enhancement bonus you get as you upgrade armor. So at level 4, a +1 chainshirt is equal to 18 wis, and a +2 chainshirt is equal to 18 wis at level 8.

Except that at level 8 when a sohei buys a +2 chain shirt - the 18 wis monk will have +2 bracers - making the 18 wis monk's AC 2 points higher (assuming equal dex). I've never seen a mid-high level monk without bracers of armor - so comparing a sohei to a normal monk without bracers past level 2 or so is silly.

There are advantages to the sohei monk - but higher AC isn't one of them.


If you're thinking of mounted combat, Sohei is certainly a very valid choice. Otherwise, I'd probably pick something else since you said 'slow development'. That means playing through the lower levels, right? Since Sohei doesn't become awesome until 6th, you might pick something with more immediate gratification. If you want archery, Zen is obviously a specialist in that. If you go melee, there are quite a few choices.

One thing you might consider, despite your dislike of multiclassing, is that 1 level of unarmed fighter gives you proficiency with all monk weapons, even exotic. So, if you fancy using unusual weapons like the seven-branched sword, or even just martial ones like the Sansetsukon, this might be a nice level to take (and it doesn't hurt you BAB), rather than spending a feat on martial weapons or exotic ones individually. If your GM allows, you can even retrain the level later when your OH damage is higher than the weapons.

Decide on what role or roles you'd like to play, and people here will have suggestions!


thanks for faq link, I had missed that one!

Liberty's Edge

I just wanted to take a minute and thank everybody for pitching in here.

i really appreciate it


I have found that the central problem with monks is in maintaining sufficient defense to be effective martial combatants. Relying on DEX and WIS for AC rather than wearing armor makes you MAD as heck, considering you would also want STR for Damage and CON for not-dying.

The three most effective approaches for maintaining an efficient defense as a monk I have found are:
1) Zen Archer (because you can effectively avoid melee with your mobility, but are not helpless at melee range.)
2) The Sohei (because you can wear armor, and that always helps)
3) The Tetori (because once you've grappled somebody, they aren't trying to stab you anymore.)

I think the vanilla monk is pretty tough to optimize, to be honest, as much as I love the flavor of the class.

Dark Archive

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I have found that the central problem with monks is in maintaining sufficient defense to be effective martial combatants. Relying on DEX and WIS for AC rather than wearing armor makes you MAD as heck, considering you would also want STR for Damage and CON for not-dying.

The three most effective approaches for maintaining an efficient defense as a monk I have found are:
1) Zen Archer (because you can effectively avoid melee with your mobility, but are not helpless at melee range.)
2) The Sohei (because you can wear armor, and that always helps)
3) The Tetori (because once you've grappled somebody, they aren't trying to stab you anymore.)

I think the vanilla monk is pretty tough to optimize, to be honest, as much as I love the flavor of the class.

Even then, a standard monk can have some pretty solid defenses with merely optimized equipment purchases if they don't know how to choose their stats well or if they can't pock good stats due to limited point by. Monks of almost all types readily and easily rank among the best and most defensive classes in the game. That's their main Combat thing - defense.

14 Wis, 15 Dex to start no dumped stats and nothing below a 10 and without using racial adjustment on Dex or Wis still nets you formidable ac.

By level 8 you would have 16 Dex and 14 Wis. Another +2 to eithereither from belt or headband. This provides a base ac of 18.

You then have several basic standard options:
Bracers, ring, jingasa, ioun stone, necklace, feats, monks robes, Barkskin.
It is not unrealistic to assume this monk has an ac of no less than 23. This is not particularly good bit it has plenty of room for improvement and there is plenty of cash to improve it. Never mind archetypes like monk of the sacred mountain or flowing monk. Monks still can spend Ki for an additional +4. So when needed, this monk who is clearly not paying much attention to ac can still have a 25 when he needs it on the rounds where he'll need it.

@op It is a shame you are not open to multiclassing but it is great that you are looking at the monk. They rock! You can do hoards of cool things with them in combat. Try to avoid the monks who are too similar to fighters (like the sohei and zen archer). You want to try something different, remember? If you are looking for martial variety here are my suggestions:

Control/silver bullets-
Tetori, maneuver master, martial artist.

Supportive-
Ki mystic, sensei.

Beatdown-
Maneuver master, drunken master, martial artist, monk of the four winds.

Tanks-
Monk of the sacred mountain, hungry ghost, Flowing Monk, sensei.

A few of these can fulfill multiple roles depending on feats and stats and whether or not you mix archetypes. Some of these require multiclassing to fulfill other concepts (but they do it very well).

Qinggong mixes with anything so a always take it. It means you have more options.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Plus, the scaling bonuses to AC that monks get are supposed to mirror, to some extent, the growing enhancement bonus you get as you upgrade armor. So at level 4, a +1 chainshirt is equal to 18 wis, and a +2 chainshirt is equal to 18 wis at level 8.

Except that at level 8 when a sohei buys a +2 chain shirt - the 18 wis monk will have +2 bracers - making the 18 wis monk's AC 2 points higher (assuming equal dex). I've never seen a mid-high level monk without bracers of armor - so comparing a sohei to a normal monk without bracers past level 2 or so is silly.

There are advantages to the sohei monk - but higher AC isn't one of them.

Ah, I see now. Hmm...for a pure strength monk (on 20 pt buy, lets assume 16/14/14 and 14 wis, with level up bonuses to strength), that would amount to...about 6 AC difference (the last level bonus to AC beats chain shirt, and then 14 wis+6 for a headband), right? I see. So you either grab all those sweet attack bonuses from items, or you go with bracers.....

Still, it is roughly about the same as a low dex rogue with the suggested set up. I like those odds personally. Thanks for helping me understand how defense monks are normally made. I never quite had the system familiarity to understand it, so I was drawn to the sohei instead (as I said, it is fairly close to rogues, or maybe a 2hander bard).

I will want to ask though- could a sohei flurry in a mithral breastplate? The material generally works as one class lower than normal for things other than proficiency. It would not entirely cover the difference (it is only a +2), but it does make it more manageable. It is a good solution for sohei that want to use a manufactured weapon like brassknuckles, temples swords, daggers, spears, nodachis, or bows (Since you have to skip brawling armor).


Mithral Breastplate counts as light for all purposes except for proficiency. However, if you pick up the Armor Expert trait, you reduce the ACP by 1. So the Mithral Breastplate would have an ACP of 0, therefor no penalty for wearing it.


If you're not using traits, consider a +1 Mithral Breastplate of Comfort.


Sohei also could eventually go to celestial armor without a trait

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

All this Sohei talk is interesting to me; I've just made a 5th level PC to replace my fighter.

At 1st she took monk(Sohei) and the rest fighter(Weaponmaster). Since Weaponmasters get Weapon Training at 3rd, and Sohei can flurry with any weapon with which they have Weapon Training, then at monk1/fighter3 she can flurry with her scimitar, while using Dervish Dance, so I could dump Str!

I expected her to wear light armour, but in the end it's better to go unarmoured and have Mage armour. with a Wis of 15 (rising to 16 at 4th) then the +4 armour bonus from the spell and the Wis bonus gives me a net of +7, while a +1 mithral shirt would cost 2100gp for a net of +5 AC, and the future problem of max Dex.

BTW, after I made her I realised that I can qualify for the Duelist PrC at level 8. : )


that doesn't work, you need 6 levels of Sohei to get the weapon training that allows you to flurry with any weapon in a weapon training group, the fighter ability does not have that text. You could switch fighter after 6 Sohei I suppose

Silver Crusade

plaidwandering wrote:
that doesn't work, you need 6 levels of Sohei to get the weapon training that allows you to flurry with any weapon in a weapon training group, the fighter ability does not have that text. You could switch fighter after 6 Sohei I suppose

Of course the ability to flurry with Weapon Training weapons in written in the description of Weapon Training! Where else would they write it?

It's still true: Sohei with Weapon Training can flurry with those weapons. There is nothing that says they have to gain Weapon Training with monk levels. Any Weapon Training qualifies.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
plaidwandering wrote:
that doesn't work, you need 6 levels of Sohei to get the weapon training that allows you to flurry with any weapon in a weapon training group, the fighter ability does not have that text. You could switch fighter after 6 Sohei I suppose

Of course the ability to flurry with Weapon Training weapons in written in the description of Weapon Training! Where else would they write it?

It's still true: Sohei with Weapon Training can flurry with those weapons. There is nothing that says they have to gain Weapon Training with monk levels. Any Weapon Training qualifies.

Until they have 6 levels, and gain weapon training as a Sohei, the ability to flurry doesn't apply. If you see rules elsewhere to support this, please post them.

You can check this by posting in the rules forum.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

You don't have a class feature until you actually have the class feature. Since the Sohei's Weapon Training class feature is what allows him to flurry with weapons he has Weapon Training with, you have to have at least 6 levels of Sohei.

Silver Crusade

Quote:
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

'At 6th level, a Sohei gains weapon training...'

'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.'

At 3rd level a weaponmaster gains Weapon Training.

It doesn't say, 'At 6th level a Sohei with weapon training can flurry with those weapons.' It says, 'A Sohei may use flurry of blows and Ki strike with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training'.

Not '...with the Weapon Training you got as a Sohei', not, '...once you're a 6th level Sohei', but 'if a Sohei has Weapon Training, he can flurry with those weapons.'


that text is ALL part of the Sohei class feature, which you don't have until you actually get it via level 6 Sohei, read Ssalarn's FAQ link.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
plaidwandering wrote:
that text is ALL part of the Sohei class feature, which you don't have until you actually get it via level 6 Sohei, read Ssalarn's FAQ link.

Actually their is no rule (or FAQ) to support this conclusion. Since the Sohei Weapon Training says it functions as the fighter class feature this means the two are interchangeable. The rules for Weapon Training for Sohei modify how the Weapon Training feature works for the class, but they as still the same feature and work interchangeably.


The text is IN the class feature, you do NOT have the class feature until 6 Sohei. The linked FAQ makes that quite clear.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
FAQ wrote:

You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).

If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces that class feature, you do not have that class feature. For example, if your archetype replaces a rogue's sneak attack, you no longer have the sneak attack class feature (whether a requirement is as general as "sneak attack" or as specific as "sneak attack +1d6," you do not qualify for it).

That FAQ? Yes I read it. And I don't see a single place that matches what you've said. Just because he gained the feature from another class doesn't change how it functions. When you gain the feature, you gain the feature. Its simple as that. Unless stated otherwise the source of the feature doesn't change how it works. Just because how it works is described in a level 6 ability, doesn't mean you have to wait until level 6 for it to work that way.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Nazerith wrote:
FAQ wrote:

You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).

If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces that class feature, you do not have that class feature. For example, if your archetype replaces a rogue's sneak attack, you no longer have the sneak attack class feature (whether a requirement is as general as "sneak attack" or as specific as "sneak attack +1d6," you do not qualify for it).

That FAQ? Yes I read it. And I don't see a single place that matches what you've said. Just because he gained the feature from another class doesn't change how it functions. When you gain the feature, you gain the feature. Its simple as that. Unless stated otherwise the source of the feature doesn't change how it works. Just because how it works is described in a level 6 ability, doesn't mean you have to wait until level 6 for it to work that way.

The Sohei Weapon Training class feature, in addition to the benefits of Fighter Weapon Training, allows the Sohei to Flurry with a weapon with which he has Weapon Training. He does not have this ability until he gains it by acquiring the class feature. He can gain Weapon Training from another source, but that Weapon Training does not grant the Flurry option; when he later gains the Sohei version he can Flurry with any weapon he has Weapon Training with, regardless of source, but not before. Unless they recently rewrote the Weaponmaster's Weapon Training to allow Soheis to Flurry with it, Malachi's build is not rules-legal.

It's similar to Channel Energy from two different sources; even though the abilities have the same name, they each follow their own separate rules and progression unless specifically called out otherwise. Regardless of when the Sohei gains his first instance of Weapon Training, he doesn't gain the ability to Flurry with weapons he has Weapon Training with until his 6th level of Sohei when he gains the specifically modified version of that ability that includes the text allowing it.

Silver Crusade

FAQ wrote:
You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature.

Absolutely.

What is the class feature called? 'Weapon Training'.

Does the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 have 'Weapon Training'? Yes.

Is there anything special about a Sohei with Weapon Training?

Quote:
A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.

Therefore, any Sohei/fighter with Weapon straining may flurry with those weapons.

If a Sohei 6 then gains 5 levels of fighter, the Weapon Training gained at Ftr5 is the same class feature as if the same character gained his fighter levels before his Sohei levels. Why? Because there is only one class feature here, and that is called Weapon Training. It's not a different feature. If you have both, they stack.

When it says 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training', it is referring to same class feature gained by fighters. This is deliberate. If it were a different feature, it wouldn't be called Weapon Training, the Sohei wouldn't say that you can flurry with any weapon with which you have weapon training. It would say that you can flurry with any weapon in which you have weapon training from Sohei levels, and we know that this is not the case because weapon training gained as a fighter (or any other class that gives weapon training) is the same ability.

If they didn't want weapon training gained from other classes to benefit from the flurry, then they wouldn't write that they do!

Silver Crusade

In other news, check out this paragraph near the end of the Bonus Feat description of the fighter from the CRB:-

Quote:
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned.

Note that you may replace any feat gained as a bonus feat. It needn't have been gained as a bonus feat granted from the fighter class! The Sohei gained a bonus feat at 1st level, from the list available to 1st level monks. At 4th level fighter, that bonus feat from monk 1st can be replaced by any feat for which you now qualify, subject to the limits stated in the description of the fighter Bonus Feat special ability.

This didn't occur to the writers of the fighter class, but dev comments have shown that this is kosher. It never occurred to me either, until I read it on these boards and a dev weighed in to confirm. The thread was about replacing armour and weapon proficiencies as if they were bonus feats, but this was a no go because they are class features that grant proficiencies rather than bonus feats which grant them, but the 'Bonus Feat from other classes' thing came up and even though the writers hadn't thought of it, the wording means that this is okay.

I'm more confident that the writer of the Sohei deliberately wrote it so that a multi-class Sohei can flurry with weapons in which he has Weapon Training from the fighter class.


If this is for a home game my suggestion for making a Monk

1. Convince your friends that a third party class is ok, especially one made by someone who freelanced for and is now employed by Paizo
2. Use this Monk
3. Have fun as a Monk instead of being third string

If the group is already loving third parties I suggest Path of War and running a Steelfist Commando (Warlord Archetype).


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

In other news, check out this paragraph near the end of the Bonus Feat description of the fighter from the CRB:-

Quote:
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned.

Note that you may replace any feat gained as a bonus feat. It needn't have been gained as a bonus feat granted from the fighter class! The Sohei gained a bonus feat at 1st level, from the list available to 1st level monks. At 4th level fighter, that bonus feat from monk 1st can be replaced by any feat for which you now qualify, subject to the limits stated in the description of the fighter Bonus Feat special ability.

This didn't occur to the writers of the fighter class, but dev comments have shown that this is kosher. It never occurred to me either, until I read it on these boards and a dev weighed in to confirm. The thread was about replacing armour and weapon proficiencies as if they were bonus feats, but this was a no go because they are class features that grant proficiencies rather than bonus feats which grant them, but the 'Bonus Feat from other classes' thing came up and even though the writers hadn't thought of it, the wording means that this is okay.

I'm more confident that the writer of the Sohei deliberately wrote it so that a multi-class Sohei can flurry with weapons in which he has Weapon Training from the fighter class.

Malachi, what you're citing is absolutely true for any Sohei of level 6+. Before that point, the text on flurrying with a weapon for which you have weapon training doesn't yet apply, since it's part of an ability that is gated by level. This means any text for that ability is not part of the class, until you hit 6th level. If it applied in general, it wouldn't be written in an ability gained at a certain level, but instead above.

Silver Crusade

Kwauss wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

In other news, check out this paragraph near the end of the Bonus Feat description of the fighter from the CRB:-

Quote:
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned.

Note that you may replace any feat gained as a bonus feat. It needn't have been gained as a bonus feat granted from the fighter class! The Sohei gained a bonus feat at 1st level, from the list available to 1st level monks. At 4th level fighter, that bonus feat from monk 1st can be replaced by any feat for which you now qualify, subject to the limits stated in the description of the fighter Bonus Feat special ability.

This didn't occur to the writers of the fighter class, but dev comments have shown that this is kosher. It never occurred to me either, until I read it on these boards and a dev weighed in to confirm. The thread was about replacing armour and weapon proficiencies as if they were bonus feats, but this was a no go because they are class features that grant proficiencies rather than bonus feats which grant them, but the 'Bonus Feat from other classes' thing came up and even though the writers hadn't thought of it, the wording means that this is okay.

I'm more confident that the writer of the Sohei deliberately wrote it so that a multi-class Sohei can flurry with weapons in which he has Weapon Training from the fighter class.

Malachi, what you're citing is absolutely true for any Sohei of level 6+. Before that point, the text on flurrying with a weapon for which you have weapon training doesn't yet apply, since it's part of an ability that is gated by level. This means any text for that ability is not part of the class, until you hit 6th level. If it applied in general, it wouldn't be written in an ability gained at a certain level, but instead above.

And I'll point out again: where else would they write it? The writer deliberately wrote that Sohei with Weapon Training can flurry, and knew full well that Weapon Training is a fighter ability. He could have chosen half a dozen ways to write it if he didn't intend it to mean what he wrote.

Put it another way: if he meant it as I believe, how else would he write it? If his intention was that a Sohei of any level can flurry with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training from any class, how would he write it?

Quote:
A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.

And where would he write about how Sohei use Weapon Training? That's right, in the description of Weapon Training.


Sigh what sohei class feature modifies what weapons .at be uses with flurry of blows. And does the character posess that class feature . Its really that simple.

Sohei 1/fighter 3 does not posess any class feature allowing a change to flurry. In the same way a lvl 1 rogue can't take extra rogue trick at lvl 1.

Silver Crusade

Mojorat wrote:

Sigh what sohei class feature modifies what weapons .at be uses with flurry of blows. And does the character posess that class feature . Its really that simple.

Sohei 1/fighter 3 does not posess any class feature allowing a change to flurry. In the same way a lvl 1 rogue can't take extra rogue trick at lvl 1.

Yes, he has the required class feature: Weapon Training. Sohei with Weapon Training can flurry with those weapons.

Weapon Training is Weapon Training. The Weapon Training gained by Sohei is the same feature as the Weapon Training gained by fighters, whether vanilla or Weaponmaster or most others. The fact that different weapons can be chosen doesn't make it a different ability. The fact that Sohei can flurry with weapons in which they have Weapon Training doesn't make it a different ability. Even those that disagree with this know that a Sohei 6 can flurry with the weapons he got Weapon Training in as a fighter 5; why? Because it's the same ability. It wouldn't work for a Sohei 6/fighter 5 if they weren't the same ability, so we agree they must be. And if they are the same, then they are the same! The fighter's Weapon Training doesn't become a different ability as soon as he takes his 6th Sohei level!

It doesn't say, 'At 6th level a Sohei gets Weapon Training and can flurry with those weapons.' It says, 'At 6th level a Sohei gets Weapon Training (the fighter special ability). A Sohei with Weapon Training can flurry with those weapons in which he has Weapon Training.'

A Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 has Weapon Training, therefore can flurry with that weapon.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Malachi, you are free to try this in a home game of you would like. However, at any level prior to six, if a sohei has weapon training, that sohei has no cause to look at their own future weapon training to modify it. You only look at the class features you have at the moment. You do not skip ahead unless an ability specifically says so. Weapon training before sohei level 6 will function only like the text listed in that weapon training.

You are also incorrect about the bonus fighter feats since it references bonus feats gained from the fighter class and not normally available feats (or any others) gained through standard advancement or as a bonus from another class. If it said he could gain a bonus feat in place of any or a feat he has already learned, you would be right on the money.

If all of us and an FAQ are not enough for you, then this might be pointless because asking in the rules forum will result in the same FAQ link and the same answers above, regardless of how you choose to argue in favor of how you want the abilities to work. However, feel free to post there and not derail this thread further. Also, feel free to use your ruling when gming your own home games (your rules would not be allowed in pfs because they are not correct).

Sczarni

monks while being considered subpar by many is probably one of the most flexible classes when it comes to options

my first bit of advice is that you should probably always be a qinggong monk, simply because it is an archetype where every replacement is entirely optional and simply having that on your character sheet give you many options. most abilities gained after 4th level (like slow fall, high jump) can be replaced for different abilities that use your ki to give you feats, a new ability of sorts, or the ability to cast some kind of spell.

there are archetypes for ki like hungry ghost and drunken master that will allow you extra ki to use more liberally

archetype for maneuvers in droves, generalists like manuever masters which can do an extra maneuver on full attack(any maneuver too!!), and more focused ones like tetori which can eventually even grapple people that have freedom of movement

master of many styles is a personal favorite, considering how many interesting style feats there are (even with the nerf to crane wing) combining them is a lot of fun and can be very effective even though you lose flurry. most style feats are worth picking up on any melee character with a free hand and unarmed proficiency but you get to have your cake and eat it too.

(for example I currently have a monk/brawler(fighter) with panther/snake/boar/and dragon style, she runs around provoking attacks, gets a free hit when she does she gets 1.5 str and can end the round by cleaving)

ki mystic and sensei allow buffs and rerolls to your allies giving you a possible supportive niche to fill

honestly one of the nice things about monks ist that there a a bajillion ways to play it.

Silver Crusade

Dark Immortal wrote:

Malachi, you are free to try this in a home game of you would like. However, at any level prior to six, if a sohei has weapon training, that sohei has no cause to look at their own future weapon training to modify it. You only look at the class features you have at the moment. You do not skip ahead unless an ability specifically says so. Weapon training before sohei level 6 will function only like the text listed in that weapon training.

You are also incorrect about the bonus fighter feats since it references bonus feats gained from the fighter class and not normally available feats (or any others) gained through standard advancement or as a bonus from another class. If it said he could gain a bonus feat in place of any or a feat he has already learned, you would be right on the money.

If all of us and an FAQ are not enough for you, then this might be pointless because asking in the rules forum will result in the same FAQ link and the same answers above, regardless of how you choose to argue in favor of how you want the abilities to work. However, feel free to post there and not derail this thread further. Also, feel free to use your ruling when gming your own home games (your rules would not be allowed in pfs because they are not correct).

The FAQ says I only get the ability when I get it, the ability is Weapon Training, and I have it.

Put simply, it is either:-

A.) any Sohei can flurry in those weapons in which he has Weapon Training, or

B.) only Sohei with at least 6 Sohei levels can do this

If A, then where would you put this information? In the description of Weapon Training.

How would you word it? 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.'

If B, how would you word it? Many possibilities: could say that at 6th level he gets Weapon Training and can flurry with those weapons. They could have made Sohei Weapon Training a different thing than the Weapon Training gained by fighters (but we know that they are intended to be the same). Basically, it could have been worded any way except 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.'

As for retraining fighter bonus feats:-

Quote:
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

This doesn't reference fighter Bonus Feats, just Bonus Feats. Intended or not, even the devs acknowledge the the way it was written means that Bonus Feats gained as Bonus Feats from other classes are eligible to be retrained, and they're okay with it.

So, this is the evidence laid out over several posts. TBH, all you've provided is 'No you can't ', and 'You don't get the ability until you get it' while ignoring the fact that I've already got it. This is not convincing.


The crux comes down to an interpretation of the phrase "A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training." The two interpretations are:

1) That the level six ability is actually two separate abilities gained together, the Weapon Training and the Sohei ability to modify flurry.

2) That Weapon Training is the only ability gained at level six. The text that falls at the end is only intended to describe how Weapon Training works for the Sohei class and is not a separate ability but an intrinsic quality to the class. The location of the text is its natural placement because this is the first level where Sohei gain Weapon Training.

Without a FAQ there is no outright correct interpretation.


Are you guys thinking the flurry text isn't part of the class feature because it's on page 61, and the class feature starts on page 60?

There's no new section heading, it's all one class feature.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
plaidwandering wrote:

Are you guys thinking the flurry text isn't part of the class feature because it's on page 61, and the class feature starts on page 60?

There's no new section heading, it's all one class feature.

No, you misunderstand. No one argues the text is located in the level 6 ability. The contention is that the only ability you gain at level six is Weapon Training. It is just descriptive text regarding how Weapon Training works for Sohei, placed in its most natural position and not a specific ability gained at level 6. Since Sohei does not have a section dedicated to Flurry, it could not have been located there.


Nazerith wrote:
plaidwandering wrote:

Are you guys thinking the flurry text isn't part of the class feature because it's on page 61, and the class feature starts on page 60?

There's no new section heading, it's all one class feature.

No, you misunderstand. No one argues the text is located in the level 6 ability. The contention is that the only ability you gain at level six is Weapon Training. It is just descriptive text regarding how Weapon Training works for Sohei, placed in its most natural position and not a specific ability gained at level 6. Since Sohei does not have a section dedicated to Flurry, it could not have been located there.

None of which is relevant, because that text does not exist for all intents and purposes until you are Sohei 6.

Can you point to an example elsewhere of an example of a class feature that grants you any benefit at all before you have it?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If it was intended to work as you say Malachi it would be written as a modification of the flurry of blows feature gained at Sohei 1.

Silver Crusade

Quote:
None of which is relevant, because that text does not exist for all intents and purposes until you are Sohei 6.

It doesn't exist until you have Weapon Training.

The Weapon Training ability itself is identical to, and stacks with, Weapon Training gained from fighter levels. It's just that Sohei with weapon training can use those weapons to flurry. Any Weapon Trainng.

Silver Crusade

supervillan wrote:
If it was intended to work as you say Malachi it would be written as a modification of the flurry of blows feature gained at Sohei 1.

When space is at a premium? More efficient that way, and only relevant when you actually have Weapon Training.

If it worked the way you think they'd have worded it in just about any other way!


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Quote:
None of which is relevant, because that text does not exist for all intents and purposes until you are Sohei 6.

It doesn't exist until you have Weapon Training.

The Weapon Training ability itself is identical to, and stacks with, Weapon Training gained from fighter levels. It's just that Sohei with weapon training can use those weapons to flurry. Any Weapon Trainng.

Please quote the text of the ability you have at level 3 of weaponmaster that allows flurrying with Weapon Training.

1 to 50 of 95 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Questions about Monks All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.