Convince your bros to dispel that stuff. That's about it.
Dump the dm because it's just to screw with you?
If it's a constant issue and you can't do The above
Then explain that anyone that knows how to use a bow
IE martial weapon training
Has been trained to deal with these kinds of issues
Because they have
And itf it's your man weapon, with all the s*!& he's put you through, you should "have enough practice by now" to ignore the penalties, or at least have them reduced
Personally I wouldn't agree to penalties "because the emery left his window open on a drafty day"
Wind spells are a different story
But wind from wing beats?
Maybe if the have hover and are specifically trying to bat your arrows away
But not just because I'm the dm and I say so
Only wind spells can deflect those arrows.
Well hurricane and tornado force winds might also be able to do it, but that should be rare.
I would either find a new GM because, or try to talk it out because if the GM wants to Frack with you there is nothing you can really do about it, once he starts to ignore the rules.
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You Are an archer
You will shoot the snot out of everything 90% of the time
If that isn't easy enough for you, perhaps it's the GM who needs New players
Archer in PF is all powerful, and makes combat dull for everyone. This is based on play Not game theory
PS. Welcome, hope I didn't seem too harsh!!!!
Actually if the GM is nerfing a player that badly he should just pull the player aside and ask him to scale back.
I would like to hear the GM side of the story also, if possible.
You probably still have decent str and generally whatever is casting wind wall or fickle winds will be humanoid... so take improved grapple just for that situation? Just walk up and noogie the bad wizard who makes the winds.
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Actually if the GM is nerfing a player that badly he should just pull the player aside and ask him to scale back.
I would like to hear the GM side of the story also, if possible.
Please note that the OP says the GM will eventually use environmental rules to make things harder. As far as I can tell the GM actually hasn't done anything.
And if the GM is using the wind rules in the environmental section of the CRB when they should be used then there isn't an issue.
If the GM is houseruling wing beats or every single day the weather conditions are hurricane force winds, even underground, then there is a problem.
I build an archer (a Zen Archer, to be precise) and I want to kill everything easily, just as I like it.
Seems to me that maybe there is two problem here. Sure, it's not the best way for a GM to focus on the bad point of a particular player, but the player should also try to ''stay in the line''. If you killed everything too easily, probably the rest of your party didn't get the chance to shine and the GM is clumsilly trying to balance it.
But first: how often? From your post, it didn't happen yet and if it happen a few time, there is no problem with that: each style will get a nemesis, even caster may encounter magic immune creature.
To pass the wind problem, just go ''switch hitter''. You already have unnarmed strike and good damage at it, and you can even use your bow in contact so.... just move in the face of the monster! ;)
One trick ponies are easy to nullify.
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The question is a valid one: how do you as an archer PC protect yourself from wind spells? Ideally without running crying to mommy wizard?
After all, it's a decent tactic for enemies to use Wind Wall spells and suchlike to protect themselves, and it's quite possible that at least one dramatic scene will take place during a storm.
So how can you prepare for these things?
I don't know the answer myself, but I'd be interested in answers.
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Move to where the spell doesn't protect your target and fire.
Like many of the others have mentioned... Look for different options. You don't have to stand in one place and plink arrows over and over. Zen Archers are great archers, because you have other excellent options as a monk.
If you're fighting in a storm, ditch the bow and go into melee. It's not your best option as a Zen Archer, but it's better than doing nothing. For wind spells... move around it, ask your party caster to Dispel it, invest some skill points into Use Magic Device and pick yourself up a Wand of Dispel Magic. There are lots of options you can do other than shoot lots of arrows and do nothing else.
Environmental hazards cause players and PCs to think outside the box, which is why I enjoy having another little something to the mix. Good luck to you and hopefully the DM doesn't overly gimp your archer.
Unless it is specifically a wind spell that the NPC/Monster has cast you should only get minor negatives to hit (-1 or -2 I'd suppose). The idea that because a bat flaps its wings, or there is a light breeze today you can't shoot your bow is asinine. Wind doesn't effect arrows nearly as much as people think it does.
If your DM is making nonsensical decisions that directly impact your character just to mitigate your ability to deal damage then he is just singling you out, like an ass. It is a sign of absolutely terrible DMing that, instead of embracing your strengths and challenging your weaknesses, negates your strengths and punishes your weaknesses.
This said there are conditions, as people have stated above, that are non-magical and would prevent archery from being successful.
Still, if the wind is not blowing people down then it isn't strong enough to prevent archery. Arrows have a lot of power in them when they are in flight.
Of course, as an archer, you could just convince the party to go do a different adventure. Oh, somehow all of the caves in this land have immense wind coming up from the depths for no reason? Well, screw this land, I'm going to go to a place more favorable to my fighting style.
Basically, if the party abandons his content enough times for the same reasons he'll figure it out, and if he doesn't then he isn't smart enough to be worth your time tbh.
A dispelling bow would be useful against Fickle Winds or even Mirror Image. Eventually you can shoot from melee range without giving an AoO, so that might be a solution to natural wind.
Improved Precise Shot bypasses displacement, unless I'm missing something.
Consider getting durable arrows, plus special types (blunt, adamantium).
Honestly if your DM rules the arrows don't work then I think you ought to invest some feats in melee so you have options when the arrows don't work. I know everyone here says they would rule differently but they are not your DM and this guy is. If you want to game with this group you must adapt to this groups rules! :)
DM: "Arrows don't work, because of a light breeze."
Me: "Really? I mean, really? You know I could pull out a far more powerful and unstoppable character that is totally legal, right?"
DM: ...
Me: "I mean, really, I could build a Gish badass that is a god in melee and pure death at range. I could even make him a force mage, so nothing is immune to his spells since, like Positive and Negative energy, Force energy has very few counters."
DM: ...
Me: "So, how about that completely contrived reason how a light breezes defeating ranged attacks for no reason?"
DM: "You still have to make concentration checks to cast spells."
Me: "Its called Quicken spell, and when that fails its called Mirror Image + Displacement. Good luck on that 6% chance to interrupt. Plus, it is possible to get a concentration so stupidly high that it is easy to succeed on."
Of course after all of this caster baiting and making him rebuild his future encounters to all be magic immune or all have anti-magic fields around them you instead roll a Barbarian without telling him and enjoy massacring everything.
Welcome to the arms race, where the hero use the book and the DM do what he wants!
If the DM put some encounter to put the monk in trouble, it may be because he wants the other member of ther party to shine too. A zen archer monk optimized can easily overshine the other members, and the DM may be trying to balance it all. If it's the case, the best way would be to diversify the zen archer (by taking some close quarter or utility feats). That way, he will shine less in the normal encounter, but will still be usefull anytime.
Ambient wind shouldn't make archery impossible, it should make archery more difficult. Point out that at worse it should be a situational penalty, since *in real life* archery is entirely possible in windy conditions, it's simply more difficult since you have to compensate for wind. A skilled archer learns to compensate for wind as a part of "being skilled as an archer." But for a good quality compound bow, an arrow's final velocity after being accelerated by the string is something like 190 mph, so any sort of natural wind is barring a hurricane or a tornado or the like, at most, a perturbation.
Engaging in archery in windy conditions should be akin to swordfighting with unstable footing: it's not impossible, it's just more difficult.
If all you have to do is eat the occasional -2 or -4, because of weather, then that's something you can live with.
If you're dealing with wind-wall users, keep in mind that wind-wall cannot enclose a cube on all six sides. At best you can make a cylinder that is open at the top, so if you can get above the wall (by flying, or just because you can jump and climb) you are essentially shooting fish in a barrel.
There is a table for this under Environment. I might not let you fire upwind in strong winds or higher (my interpretation of the 'checked' entry), but I'd let you fire downwind (or partially downwind) with the penalty as written.
It may be a not-too-subtle message from the GM to diversify.
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Your best defense is to know the rules....also for reference, the downward force(wind) from a hovering average helicopter is around 30mph.
Wind Rules from the PRD:
Light Wind: 0-10mph, A gentle breeze, having little or no game effect.
Moderate Wind: 11-20mph, A steady wind with a 50% chance of extinguishing small, unprotected flames, such as candles.
Strong Wind: 21-30mph, Gusts that automatically extinguish unprotected flames (candles, torches, and the like). Such gusts impose a –2 penalty on ranged attack rolls and on Perception checks.
Severe Wind: 31-50 mph, In addition to automatically extinguishing any unprotected flames, winds of this magnitude cause protected flames (such as those of lanterns) to dance wildly and have a 50% chance of extinguishing these lights. Ranged weapon attacks and Perception checks are at a –4 penalty. This is the velocity of wind produced by a gust of wind spell.
Windstorm: 51-74mph, Powerful enough to bring down branches if not whole trees, windstorms automatically extinguish unprotected flames and have a 75% chance of blowing out protected flames, such as those of lanterns. Ranged weapon attacks are impossible, and even siege weapons have a –4 penalty on attack rolls. Perception checks that rely on sound are at a –8 penalty due to the howling of the wind.
Hurricane-Force Wind: 75-174mph, All flames are extinguished. Ranged attacks are impossible (except with siege weapons, which have a –8 penalty on attack rolls). Perception checks based on sound are impossible: all characters can hear is the roaring of the wind. Hurricane-force winds often fell trees.
Tornado (CR 10): 175-300mph, All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (even with siege weapons), as are sound-based Perception checks. Instead of being blown away (see Table: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado. Those who come in contact with the actual funnel cloud are picked up and whirled around for 1d10 rounds, taking 6d6 points of damage per round, before being violently expelled (falling damage might apply). While a tornado's rotational speed can be as great as 300 mph, the funnel itself moves forward at an average of 30 mph (roughly 250 feet per round). A tornado uproots trees, destroys buildings, and causes similar forms of major destruction.
So I have a question.
I build an archer (a Zen Archer, to be precise) and I want to kill everything easily, just as I like it.
But the GM will eventually start using wind spells, wind because of the wings of this and that, or just because today is a windy day or we are in a windy cave.
You know, my GM is just like this aaaaall the time :)
So, what is the best solution to be able to fire arrows through the wind?
Large arrows? But if I make myself large (anyhow), the arrow will stop being large the moment I let them go. This is what I thought, but doesn't work.
So, what? Ideas?
So this haent happend yet. Your GM have not done any thing about archery yet? Because you just built the archer?
I dont know your GM but i expect your wounds may heal very Quick if i Cut you yes?"You know, my GM is just like this aaaaall the time:)" was over doing it.
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DM: "Arrows don't work, because of a light breeze."
Me: "Really? I mean, really? You know I could pull out a far more powerful and unstoppable character that is totally legal, right?"
DM: ...
Me: "I mean, really, I could build a Gish badass that is a god in melee and pure death at range. I could even make him a force mage, so nothing is immune to his spells since, like Positive and Negative energy, Force energy has very few counters."
DM: ...
Me: "So, how about that completely contrived reason how a light breezes defeating ranged attacks for no reason?"
DM: "You still have to make concentration checks to cast spells."
Me: "Its called Quicken spell, and when that fails its called Mirror Image + Displacement. Good luck on that 6% chance to interrupt. Plus, it is possible to get a concentration so stupidly high that it is easy to succeed on."Of course after all of this caster baiting and making him rebuild his future encounters to all be magic immune or all have anti-magic fields around them you instead roll a Barbarian without telling him and enjoy massacring everything.
Wow. This is an example of what not to do... Act like a mature player and talk with your GM if it ever gets to the point of being singled out. I think adding a challenge is exciting as long as it's done well.
I don't have much to add in terms of advice besides the stated recommendations to have a good dialogue with your GM and familiarize yourself with the pertinent rules.
That having been said, a couple of posters brought up a dispelling weapon as a possible work-around the wind-based spells you might deal with in the future. A dispelling weapon, however, is simply a focused spell storing weapon. Here is (what I think is) the pertinent text from its description in Ultimate Equipment:
Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires.
Emphasis mine. In essence, for the dispelling weapon to do away with the wind spells that are preventing the Archer from functioning, it would somehow have to get past said wind spells, strike the intended target, AND injure it before the dispelling effect took effect.
The only solution I can think of that would help this effect work is if the archer injured a target that was outside the area of effect of the wind spell, but close enough to it so that the dispel magic effect would still affect it.
Does that make sense?
Wow. This is an example of what not to do... Act like a mature player and talk with your GM if it ever gets to the point of being singled out. I think adding a challenge is exciting as long as it's done well.
Singling out is not "adding a challenge" it is being a jerk, plain and simple. Adding a challenge is making better encounters, making better environments, and so forth.
Singling players out makes them leave. If someone makes a super fire-mage and then the party only fights fire immune monsters then he is being singled out unless that content was planned out way in advance.There are numerous ways to make the Zen Archer less effective without just making up contrived bullcrap to completely negate him.
Call me what you will, but I like full transparency. If an enemy uses a spell or ability to completely negate me I want to know what that ability is after the game is over. If the DM can't tell me then I assume it was just DM-Fiat.
Also: Damage reduction. Lots of damage reduction. When the Physical Damage characters are too strong add in DR. Lycanthropes are a +1 template for DR 10/silver.
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Wow. This is an example of what not to do... Act like a mature player and talk with your GM if it ever gets to the point of being singled out. I think adding a challenge is exciting as long as it's done well.<snip>
Call me what you will, but I like full transparency. If an enemy uses a spell or ability to completely negate me I want to know what that ability is after the game is over. If the DM can't tell me then I assume it was just DM-Fiat.
<snip>
If you make this 'request' of me as your GM (and it doesn't sound like a request), you'll be asked to leave the group. Even if I Did adjust something on the fly to hose your character, either you trust me as your GM to try and show you a good time (and therefore trust me that this is part of some larger plan) or you shouldn't be in my group. Sometimes something bad has to happen to advance a plotline. If it's your turn, then enjoy it and work for the big turnaround that's inevitably coming. If you don't trust your GM, don't play with them, everyone will be better off.
Occasionally your main 'schtick' may not be working (e.g. fire mage against fire elementals, or archer in a windstorm) - have a backup plan that's still fun to play when that inevitably happens.
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Its simple, I don't trust DMs from the start. I expect them to screw up and make mistakes. I expect them to make massive missteps. I tend to trend towards being the unofficial Co-DM since many of the DMs I start play with are new who were in my games and decided that they wanted to try DMing.
I have also had the "pleasure" of playing with DMs that totally negate my characters. I am also the first to have my character fully fleshed out to level 20 before most of the party, and I tend to tell the DM up-front what a character is designed to do. With that knowledge in mind I then trust the DM to not make everything immune to that.
DM-Fiat to negate is fine, but in limitations. If I am making entirely new characters to defeat Fiat that is targeting me and no one else then the DM sucks--plain and simple. I've had plenty of DMs that embrace the idea that it is DM VS Players. Every time I see this I explain that it is simple: he is playing Poker with us where he can hand-craft his hand while we have to draw normally and where he can make certain combinations not work.
However, in the context of the OP: if DM-Fiat is making it so he is negated each and every combat then what is the point of him being there? His DM minus well tell him to shove his character up his ..., and go away.
Unlike this Gishes I enjoy making Zen Archers don't have options to maintain their effectiveness. Gishes are already pretty good in melee, they have a wide breadth of spells they can use to maintain effectiveness so they are not gimped. A Fire Immune monster just means the Gish uses his beat-stick.
With DMs I trust I expect them to tell me if I make a fire-mage and everything is going to be fire immune. Cool, great, I'll change it to a cold, acid or force mage.
Also, I will call out my DM on b#~!%~@+, since theoretically the DM and the PCs should be playing by most of the same rules. If you can't handle full transparency as for minor abilities then you shouldn't be DMing. If a monster points at someone, the fail a fort save, and instantly die we want to know what he cast. "It has an SLA that casts Finger of Death" is perfectly fine once the session is over. If, instead, the DM says, "Well, I just decided it could do it" and it wasn't built into the monster in any way, shape or form then I'll be scolding that DM, but since he was transparent I wont just drop him.
Transparency = I help you become better, even if your reasons are really, really bad.
No Transparency when there isn't a damn good reason for it = I leave and don't tell you I wont be coming back.
I'm not asking for monster stat blocks, but instead want to know you're not just singling people out "cuz reasons."
Also, just to point this out: if something happens because of plot reasons then that is acceptable. However, negating people mechanically because they are mechanically good is terrible DMing.
Look at it this way: I could be at home playing Dark Souls or a different interactive medium, writing and playing my own module with other friends, or working on personal projects. My time is valuable, and if I feel like the DM is telling me to go screw myself the entire time I am there without having a justification for it then I'm not going to continue wasting my time on him.
TTRPGs are collaborative, and noncooperation by any member of the game is destructive. Some Players will put up with the feeling of being at the mercy of the DM's whims. I wont. I did once, and then I started DMing and realized how stupid it is to submit to such whims since it takes something that is supposed to be fun and makes it into a source of stress.
Are you feeling victimized by someone's ego? Are you feeling punished , singled out and helpless? Its simple. Leave. When you leave others will likely follow. Do you think you can do better? Get the contact information of everyone, including the DM, make your own scenario, modules, mega-adventure or campaign, and after you've converted everyone else to your game invite the previous DM and inform him that you've taken his players, but that he is welcome to join as well. Let him see how good DMing works. Let him see that players really enjoy being able to ask "why or what was this" and get an honest answer. Lead by example, but if you can't take his players then go do something more fun. Demon's Souls is on PS3, Dark Souls is on everything, Dark Souls 2 is on everything, and Bloodbourne will be on PS4. You have a lot of play or look forward to, and with the exception of Dark Souls 2, everything is up-front and honest about the game.
Content that is designed well is always going to be better and more fun than content that is designed poorly and fiated to be challenging, full stop.
I think asking the DM "was that an actual printed spell/effect, or was that just something you made up" is reasonable. I don't think the GM needs to quote a specific page, nor do I think some amount of "GM fiat" is unreasonable, but if there's too much of that and you feel like someone is getting singled out, broaching it politely is probably in order. People play different degrees of fast and loose with the rules, and the test for "is the GM doing his or her job" has everything to do with "are the players having fun" and little to do with how the rules are adjudicated beyond the aforementioned fun standard. Talks like "I feel like you are picking on me, can we talk about it" are just going to happen from time to time, if everybody behaves like a mature adult it's going to be fine.
But for the "archery in the wind" example well that depends on the weather, and the weather is always going to be the GM's decision (barring arcane interference) so unless the GM is making there be a hurricane everywhere the PCs go or doing something else that's clearly offensive to simulationist leanings, I think you just have to live with the weather.
Either that, or not so subtly suggest derailing the campaign to try to investigate where all these hurricanes are coming from, since there's no way this is a natural phenomenon.
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You forgot the apostrophe MattR1986.
Control issues? Yes. I like to be in control. Once I am sure the DM actually knows what he is doing I am more than happy to relax. You would be amazed at how many new DMs think 4 CR1 monsters make up a CR 1 encounter.
Power Gaming and Optimization comes in when it is needed. ATM: I'm playing an Conjurer Crafter who isn't using Acadamae Graduate to make those summon spells standard actions. That isn't optimal in any way shape or form.
Victimization complex? Paranoia? Incorrect. Baghtu has pointed out that just a windy day or simple fiat means he is negated. I have played with absolutely terrible DMs who do that crap constantly. Have you? I have seen new players come in, play with these DMs, and then never play again. Have you?
Combative attitude towards the DM loaded with snottyness and passive aggression? Yes to vanity. :) I love being a vain bastard. It makes it all the more important to play by the rules you are supposed to. Passive Aggressive, however is incorrect. I recruit your players after leaving and informing the players of why I am leaving. If they are enjoying your DMing style, then they wont want to come to my game--players get invested in the characters, after all. If they jump ship the moment there is a different option then democracy has spoken loud and clear. If I didn't invite you then I'd be being passive aggressive. I want everyone to have fun, most of all myself, and some people are just not able to handle the amount of control required to DM well.
PFS sucks, yet at the same time it is quite nice. To explain all the reasons why I don't play it would take a longer post than the above. In short it is because of its limitations. I encourage my players to be building and becoming invested in the world instead of just running around as murder hobos.
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Victimization complex? Paranoia? Incorrect. Baghtu has pointed out that just a windy day or simple fiat means he is negated. I have played with absolutely terrible DMs who do that crap constantly. Have you? I have seen new players come in, play with these DMs, and then never play again. Have you?
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Re read his post the issue is still only in his mind.
This is the words"Oh. I have to apologize. The smiley was not so easy to be seen.
My GM is not such an ass. Sorry. He is very rules strict, though. And he likes to use environment to create a scenario, not just monsters. He is actually a nice guy and as Cardinal said, he hasnt done anything yet.
This said, and focused on rules. How to avoid the wind spell issue?"
Now consider that somebody May have been getting worked up about somthing that have mostly happend in your mind.
Edit: i ditent see the OPs other post but now i did and it made me remake my post a bit
Oh. I have to apologize. The smiley was not so easy to be seen.
My GM is not such an ass. Sorry. He is very rules strict, though. And he likes to use environment to create a scenario, not just monsters. He is actually a nice guy and as Cardinal said, he hasnt done anything yet.
This said, and focused on rules. How to avoid the wind spell issue?
Gravity bow?
Large arrows with a large bow and enlagment?
Gravity bow?
Just move to the folk and point blank them?
Or grapple?
Any rule acceptable solution to avoid wind wall issues with an archer?
Multiclassing is not to efficient normally but it would be ok for me.
It is very simple. Don't do anything or withdraw from the wall to force the enemy to move up beyond their defenses.