Bladebound Magus: Is it worth it?


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137ben wrote:
"Real Campaigns?" Pretty sure I recall at least a few of those where Leadership was allowed. I think one of the cohorts in a 'Real Campaign' was called Joe Biden.

Nah, cohorts are usually competent.

Scarab Sages

CraziFuzzy wrote:

That is a great feature, but it is only marginally better than the default magus being able to make the weapon a flaming weapon.

Ignoring strength modifiers:

Base Magus using a +2 longsword Against DR5/fire
- Spend 1 point from arcane pool, add 'flaming' to sword.
- A hit deals 1d8+2-5DR slashing + 1d6 fire (averages 1.5 slashing and 3.5 fire - total average of 5 damage)
- This 1 arcane pool point effect lasts for 1 minute (2 minutes with the Bladed Magic trait).

BladeBound Magus using Lvl 5 Black Blade
- Spend 1 point from Blade's arcane pool, atune weapon to fire.
- A hit deals 1d8+2 fire. (averages 6.5 fire damage)
- This 1 arcane pool point effect lasts for 1 ROUND.

Bladebound Magus:

- Spend 1 point from Blade's arcane pool, attune weapon to fire (action taken by blade).
- Spend 1 point from arcane pool, add flaming to sword
- A hit deals 1.5(1d8+1d6+2) fire. (average 15 fire damage)
- The conversion lasts for 1 round, the flaming blade lasts for 1 minute.

Black blade abilities are not instead of normal magus options, they are in addition too.


Artanthos wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

That is a great feature, but it is only marginally better than the default magus being able to make the weapon a flaming weapon.

Ignoring strength modifiers:

Base Magus using a +2 longsword Against DR5/fire
- Spend 1 point from arcane pool, add 'flaming' to sword.
- A hit deals 1d8+2-5DR slashing + 1d6 fire (averages 1.5 slashing and 3.5 fire - total average of 5 damage)
- This 1 arcane pool point effect lasts for 1 minute (2 minutes with the Bladed Magic trait).

BladeBound Magus using Lvl 5 Black Blade
- Spend 1 point from Blade's arcane pool, atune weapon to fire.
- A hit deals 1d8+2 fire. (averages 6.5 fire damage)
- This 1 arcane pool point effect lasts for 1 ROUND.

Bladebound Magus:

- Spend 1 point from Blade's arcane pool, attune weapon to fire (action taken by blade).
- Spend 1 point from arcane pool, add flaming to sword
- A hit deals 1.5(1d8+1d6+2) fire. (average 15 fire damage)
- The conversion lasts for 1 round, the flaming blade lasts for 1 minute.

Black blade abilities are not instead of normal magus options, they are in addition too.

Understood. To compare apples to apples, I was comparing a single point spend. I was actually a little off on it as well, as a 5th level magus with can grand a +2 total bonus. In this case, since we were assuming a base +2 weapon, he could use those 2 enhancement points to give the sword flaming burst, instead of just flaming, or just flaming, and add another +1. yes, again, i realize the bladebound can do this as well, and I believe in many situations, he'd be wiser doing this than using the blade's atune ability.


Every point of static damage in bladebound case receives the 1.5 as well. Throw in Str and bard or powerattack etc, and you get a lot higher numbers.


Then, of course, if you're looking to do a single round of fire damage, you'd be hard pressed to find any point economy that competes with Pool Strike. To compare a 2 point spend with what you posted above:

Any Magus w/ Pool Strike arcana

(Swift Action) Spend 1 point from arcane pool, add flaming burst to +2 long sword. Will last 1 minute.
(Standard Action) Spend 1 point from arcane pool to charge a Pool Strike (fire). Can make a free action touch attack with it this turn, or hold it for up to 1 minute. The touch attack CAN be made with spellstrike.
(Move Action) Move up to target (if necessary).
(Free Action) Deliver touch attack via spellstrike:

normal hit: 1d8-3 + 1.5(1d6 flaming + 2d6 fire strike) ~ 1.5 + 15.75 ~ 17.25
critical hit: 2d8-1 + 1.5(1d6 flaming + 2d6 fire strike + 1d10 flame burst) ~ 8 + 24 ~ 32

The moral here? At 5th level and above, ANY magus can put some hurt on DR creatures.


My first Pathfinder Character after coming over from 3.5 was a Bladebound Kensei. I found the weapon to be really cool, its special abilities useful at times, and didn't feel that I really needed more arcane pool or arcana. I had enough pool for what I needed, and was pretty happy with the arcana I had.

As others have pointed out, a big downside is not being able to get a familiar. Depending on how your GM treats intelligent magic items though, this can really be a wash, since the blade is intelligent and can sometimes replace what a familiar would do for you. My character once had his rely information that he had been geased not to speak of, but since the person performing the geas didn't geas the blade we got around the difficulty.

Of course some GMs make intelligent magic items consistently nasty. Really this shouldn't happen with a black blade much, but the GM does have a fair amount of latitude so it can be a downside instead of an upside having an intelligent weapon. On the other end of the spectrum, if a GM allows anyone with craft arms and armor to make the item intelligent for just a bit more money (I don't personally) then the special advantages of having a weapon that is intelligent is lessened since you could make your own, and probably customize it to be a lot more useful.


Using pool strike takes an arcana, negating the price of entering Bladebound (your sword carries your lost arcane pool points)

Additionally power attacking and barding ups the bladebound's strike to 25.5 damage (1d8+3str+2sword+1d6fire+2bard+2PA)*1.5 to pool strikes 23.5. This gap will grow as levels increase.

Pool strike is touch, but bladebound can also use spellcombat to double strike or casting any other beneficial spell for himself and allies, and also gains iteratives.

I agree that performance is similar... which is counter to that people were arguing that bladebound is weak. I think it's fairly on par. I would argue it's a bit stronger actually, but really it depends on your playstyle... the correct archetype for your particular style should be a step up.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Blakmane wrote:

To put it another way, assuming standard WBL, bladebound gives you a delayed main weapon enhancement progression in exchange for not having to pay for that progression. The less gold you are earning, the more valuable that free progression becomes.

So where does Pathfinder Society stand in that regard (assuming there's a clear answer to be given)?

In a level cap scenario (like PFS) I think its awesome. Also the RP aspect is great. I really enjoyed my Bladebound Magus. I do realize its about preference. Not being able to put spell storing on it wasn't much of an issue. The Blade + Arcane pool enhancement meant I had the most powerful weapon of everyone I played with.


Depends on what you want out of a class. The flavour of the class is superb and so is the mechanics. The class is in no way weak and will still hold it's own in a group.


I always enjoyed the Paladin/Bladebound Magus concept.

Liberty's Edge

Dekalinder wrote:
You mean there are "real campaign" where crafting feats are actually allowed? Must be the same DM who allow leadership.

Yup. I played in that campaign once.


The whole discussion of what counts as a "real campaign" is much funnier to read now than it was two years ago. I hear there are some HUUUUUUUGE real campaigns where a cohort is left in change of "domestic policy and foreign policy."


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137ben has committed an evil act by casting Animate Thread. Two more infractions, and you shall be banished by the Pathfinder Society!

Dark Archive

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Blakmane wrote:

To put it another way, assuming standard WBL, bladebound gives you a delayed main weapon enhancement progression in exchange for not having to pay for that progression. The less gold you are earning, the more valuable that free progression becomes.

So where does Pathfinder Society stand in that regard (assuming there's a clear answer to be given)?

No item crafting feats are allowed in PFS. They even make wizards trade out scribe scroll and alchemists ditch brew potion.


This is a pretty old and quite long thread, but I read it with great interest because I'm GMing a Jade Regent campaign with a Bladebound PC. I'm not quoting people mostly because I want to start fresh.

(1) Since I allow crafting (unlike PFS, apparently), my Bladebound PC can take Craft Magic Arms & Armor and add weapon qualities to her Black Blade. (Casually dropping a Black Blade off in a shop for enchantment is another thing entirely, of course!) Would this cover the distance between the Bladebound's weapon and any other PC's magic weapon improved with mere gold? Surpass it?

(2) The Bladebound Magus can attune the weapon to fire through the blade's arcana pool and at the same time add flaming to it from their own. Can someone walk me through what would be the damage done in that case? (Assume a foe with DR/fire but no energy vulnerability.)

And thank you to all who contributed to a thoughtful analysis of the class's pros & cons.


1. Relevant FAQ specifically says you can't enhance your Black Blade in that manner, including adding properties.

2. You cannot stack two of the same (or even similar) weapon properties onto a weapon. The only exceptions noted are the Bane/Defiant properties, but it still requires you to select different types (or subtypes) each time.


About 3/4 of magi that Ive seen take this option!


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


2. You cannot stack two of the same (or even similar) weapon properties onto a weapon. The only exceptions noted are the Bane/Defiant properties, but it still requires you to select different types (or subtypes) each time.

They are two very different abilities:

  • The first adds the Flaming property to the weapon for 1 minute.
  • The second coverts all of damage normally dealt by the weapon to energy damage.

There is nothing preventing the magus from choosing two separate elements (say, flaming and cold damage).

What the magus cannot do is stack Flaming and Flaming Burst properties on his sword.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


1. Relevant FAQ specifically says you can't enhance your Black Blade in that manner, including adding properties.

Waah! It makes sense that adding +level enhancements of any kind makes pricing both for permanent enhancements and for the arcana pool ones impossible to calculate, but still, my player (and honestly, I as GM), find this discovery to be a bummer. I wish it were clearly stated in the Bladebound description.

I considered a ruling that the PC could add properties that don't cost a +x bonus, just gold. I was dimly remembering a long list of options, but it turns out that that's only the case for magic armor. The gp-only properties for magic weapons are (drum-roll, please):
> Impervious (+3K gp)
> Glamered (+4K gp)
> Transformative (+10K gp)
> Dueling (+14K gp) would be on the list, but it's a katana

To make it worse, I've woven the katana in question into the Jade Regent story-line (and no spoilers, please!), so I'm strongly tempted to give it Impervious for free. The others sure don't look like they're worth a feat to me!

I don't think the player will be sorry he chose the class & archetype; as many of you have pointed out, the possibilities for RP and flavor are endless. But now that we understand about crafting, he may bend his still 3rd-level PC in a somewhat different direction. So thank you!


Snowlilly wrote:

They are two very different abilities:

The first adds the Flaming property to the weapon for 1 minute.
The second coverts all of damage normally dealt by the weapon to energy damage.

Thank you for clarifying the difference. But I'm nailing this home because I want to be sure I have this right. I'm working with a black blade katana belonging to, let's say, a 5th-level magus with STR 10 (just to eliminate a distraction). Therefore:

> It currently has a constant +2 enhancement in the hands of its magus, so it normally does 1d8+2 slashing. (For anyone else, it's just a masterwork weapon.)
> The magus can add +2 to do 1d8+4 slashing for 1 minute (1 pt from the blade's pool).
> She now has energy attunement, so she can turn its 1d8+2 damage into energy damage (eg, fire) for 1 round (1 pt from the blade's pool).
> These are free actions, so I assume she can do both in one round, giving it 1d8+4 fire damage for 1 round. (At that point, its arcane pool is spent for the day.)
> The magus can add weapon properties like flaming, giving it 1d8 (slashing) + 1d6 (fire) + 2, for 1 minute (1 pt from the magus's pool).
> This is a swift action, so she can do this along with the above free actions, but no other swift actions in the same round. Therefore the blade could end up doing 1d8+1d6+4 for 1 minute. If DR/fire applies, 1d8+4 of this would be subject to it except in the first round, when all of the damage was fire.
> And then the magus can spell-strike with this weapon. Whew!


The only thing that looks wimpy when I look at what a bladebound can do is the length of time that energy attunement lasts (1 round). Has anyone done house rules for lengthening that duration based on the magus's level? (For instance, "for every four levels beyond 5th, this ability lasts one extra round, to a maximum of four rounds at 17th level.") If so, did you like it, and what rule did you have for lengthening?

I'll grant you that the size of the pool for powering the effect is going up as the magus levels, to 6 arcane pool points at 17th level, and at 19th you get Life Drinker, so maybe this is a bad idea.


Any static modifications to weapon damage will also be converted to energy damage.

I'll use a 7th level bladebound kensai as an example.

+2 flaming keen katana
+4 stat bonus
+2 power attack
+2 weapon specialization
+2 arcane strike
+2 black blade strike

damage = 1d8+14+1d6(fire)
on crit = 2d8+28+1d6(fire)

On a round where energy conversion is used that entire amount is energy damage. On rounds energy conversion is not used, only 1d6 is fire.

swift action = arcane pool (flaming + keen)
sword = energy conversion
sword = black blade strike
full round = spell combat.

Arcane Strike is not typically used in the first round, as both Arcane Strike and spending arcane pool to enhance a weapon require a swift action.

At 7th level, the blade only has two arcane points, you've just spent both of them. Your blade is no longer unbreakable :P

Grand Lodge

How do you put keen on a Black Blade?


*Khan* wrote:
How do you put keen on a Black Blade?

Arcane Pool, same way you add Flaming.

Arcane Pool wrote:
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.

Grand Lodge

Yep but not a permanent enchantment, which is a major drawback compared to a non-blackblade magus.


*Khan* wrote:
Yep but not a permanent enchantment, which is a major drawback compared to a non-blackblade magus.

I've never found it to be an impediment. If you really think you need it permanent instead of a swift action, invest in Improved Critical.

The bladebound will typically be swinging a +3 keen weapon at 5th level and a +5 keen weapon at 9th level. A far better weapon than the rest of the group will have access to at those levels. Arcane Pool is an awesome class feature, it means you don't need to rely on permanent enhancements to your weapon.


Snowlilly wrote:
Any static modifications to weapon damage will also be converted to energy damage.

I thought that's what I did! Did I do anything wrong in my example?

~~~~~

Snowlilly wrote:
swift action = arcane pool (flaming + keen)

How do you do both of those in one turn with swift actions?

ADDED: ~~~~~
Also, I take it you're not troubled by the short duration on energy attunement?


bitter lily wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Any static modifications to weapon damage will also be converted to energy damage.

I thought that's what I did! Did I do anything wrong in my example?

~~~~~

Snowlilly wrote:
swift action = arcane pool (flaming + keen)
How do you do both of those in one turn with swift actions?

At 5th level Arcane Pool grants a +2 enhancement bonus, or equivalent. Flaming and Keen are both +1 equivalent properties.

I've only ever used energy attunement when I knew an opponent was either vulnerable or extremely resistant to physical damage.

Knowledge skills are important for a magus :)


Plus you would be surprised at how often having a Sonic Sword can be useful


Greylurker wrote:
Plus you would be surprised at how often having a Sonic Sword can be useful

Only fire, cold, electric and force are available options.

Force costs 2 arcane points/round.


Snowlilly wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
Plus you would be surprised at how often having a Sonic Sword can be useful

Only fire, cold, electric and force are available options.

Force costs 2 arcane points/round.

Force and Sonic for 2

Quote:
Energy Attunement (Su): At 5th level, as a free action, a magus can spend a point of his black blade's arcane pool to have it deal one of the following types of damage instead of weapon damage: cold, electricity, or fire. He can spend 2 points from the black blade's arcane pool to deal sonic or force damage instead of weapon damage. This effect lasts until the start of the magus's next turn.


I've played a kensai/bladebound magus with dervish dance and it was a monster!

Just max up dex and int and hit everything with shocking garsp and your keen scimitar for 15-20 critical spell!

Just buy a kilt and spend money to enchant it (or brace of armor). you dont'need to spend money in swords!

Elves are a nice race to play for it (but don't dump costitution!)

You can also take 3 free magus Arcana with elves, so you can compensate for the lost of the 3rd.

I'don't see any real reasons to take vanilla magus... for me bladebound is the real magus!


Until you can afford a +5 weapon then the blackblade is going to be a major boost, once you can then, while you miss out on spell storing for extra nova power, you get to spend the money on other things, making you stronger over all. Not to mention fun stuff like getting to occasionally deal force damage.

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