Help explaining a rule to others


Advice

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There is no straight answer as you are asking for advice on a situation that requires knowlege of what your are attempting and how (what are you actulaly attempting to do when you delay?). There are no rules for explaining how to delay In between mooks as that is not by RAW how it happens so any adive is just an opinion nothing more, it cant be backed up.

You seem to be getting very frustrated and I think the reason for this is because you are asking for something that is impossible to offer advice on in the way you want it.

My advice and now im bugging out as I cant seem to help is just talk to the GM at the start of the game and dont get angry.

I really hope you sort this one out. Good luck.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

"The rules for initiative are the same for everyone, regardless if it is a PC, monster, or NPC."

This is as simple as you put it.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

"The rules for initiative are the same for everyone, regardless if it is a PC, monster, or NPC."

This is as simple as you put it.

This is kind of implying that the DM is cheating. Which leads to the "no i'm not so you can't" defense.

Can I hope in after random Orc number 2? I really don't care if its the same one every round but I want to break some of these guys up to protect the squishies.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, there isn't really "one way" to deliver the message.

Anytime you have to say "no, you are wrong", it is gonna be awkward.

Noting that it a houserule, so common, that some don't even know it's a houserule, may relieve some tension.


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Your problem is NOT about understanding. Your problem is about priorities.

The GMs, most of the time, are fully aware of the rules, and clump initiative anyway. Because it's easier for them to manage. I'm certainly in this category.

You don't need to explain. You need to persuade. You need to convince someone that doing it the hard way is worth the trouble.

I'm not convinced, personally, but I've given you a strategy. mention this immediately, so I can adjust, and offer to run initiative.

If you don't want to listen, I guess that's all I've got.


Blackbloodtroll wrote:
Anytime you have to say "no, you are wrong", it is gonna be awkward.

So don't say it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Blackbloodtroll wrote:
Anytime you have to say "no, you are wrong", it is gonna be awkward.
So don't say it.

Well, you end saying it, but likely not in that exact manner.

You are going to word it different.


Copy the following text onto a few index cards and keep them hand during the game.
[quote=]
Delay

By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.

You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what's going to happen. You also can't interrupt anyone else's action (as you can with a readied action).

Initiative Consequences of Delaying

Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don't get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again).

If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

When you decide that you are going to use the delay action, make sure you ask the DM how he handles delay for group mobs. You can use the quoted material to quickly reference the rule for the DM. That way he doesn't have to stop the game and look them up if he is not 100% familiar with how Delay works.


Again, I come back here and feel frustrated. Please, understand what exactly I am asking out of this thread, and don't keep posting as if I want anything else beyond it. It's aggravating to read how people are putting it like I can't sympathize with time restraints and can't respect certain decisions, because I certainly can.

For the last time, I want advice on how to persuade in a quick and convincing manner that one CAN delay in between other combatants. The issue comes up when the gm believes the npc's literally go at the same exact time, and this originates from the habit of clumping the initiative. I do have a clumping gripe, but this is not what I'm concerned with here, but instead about delaying.

Yes, there is no straight answer, which is why I'm asking for advice. There are too many variables to consider that are unknown due to the fact future specific situations haven't happened yet for me to exactly describe in an objective manner so we can find the perfect solution. I simply want helpful advice to convey the correct rules so I may make a better attempt convincing others, and that's all.

By all means, continue side discussions on initiative clumping, but please understand my massage and expectations for the thread now. Thanks.

The Exchange

Perhaps it would be helpful to know how many times you've approached the GM already, and what arguments you have already used - arguments that have been dismissed. If nothing else we can get an idea of whether the GM has gotten emotionally invested in his opinion - which always makes discussion more challenging.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Human Fighter, if the rules are not enough to convince someone that impenetrable initiative clumping is against the rules, no amount of advice we give will help.

It is impossible to justify impenetrable initiative clumping and claim that you are following RAW, or even RAI, because the rules say nothing at all about it. Quite the opposite, in fact, as has been pointed out many times in this thread.

You're looking for a magic sentence that will convince anyone. That magic sentence is in the initiative rules. If someone, even a PFS GM, is ignoring it, they cannot claim to be doing anything but house ruling.

So, please, ask the GM to come to this thread and explain their reasons. We're happy to fight your side on this, because you are correct about the rules. But we can't convince someone of something without feedback from them about their beliefs and reasons.


What's so hard to understand the simplicity of what this thread is trying to accomplish? I just want suggestions on how in the moment to grab someone's attention and make it sound convincing that you can use delay in that fashion by the rules, and in the quickest and time saving way.I understand lost causes can't be convinced, so I want to make quick and efficient attempt, then move on for everyone's sake. Understand now?


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Human Fighter wrote:
I just want suggestions on how in the moment to grab someone's attention and make it sound convincing that you can use delay in that fashion by the rules, and in the quickest and time saving way.

Okay...Dress nicely, use big words that make you sound intelligent, and speak with confidence?


Human Fighter wrote:
What's so hard to understand the simplicity of what this thread is trying to accomplish? I just want suggestions on how in the moment to grab someone's attention and make it sound convincing that you can use delay in that fashion by the rules, and in the quickest and time saving way.I understand lost causes can't be convinced, so I want to make quick and efficient attempt, then move on for everyone's sake. Understand now?

Like I said earlier, have the rules for Delay written down for quick reference (probably index cards would be the best thing) so that you can quote the rules quickly without the DM having to stop and dig out a Core Rulebook and look them up. Explain your action you want to take specifically "I want to let the first 3 goblins pass the dungeon intersection and then step into the hall to block the rest." Make sure you are not interrupting the DM by using words such as "wait" or "hold on". Use "excuse me" or "may I". Other than these suggestions, anything else would be highly situational.

Or sacrifice a goat to the rules lawyer gods before you go to the game and hope for the best. JUST KIDDING!


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Because its Impossible to give advice rule wise on something that

DOES NOT EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You continue to keep asking the same question over and over again, everybody is giving you as much advice as they posibibly can and you don't seem to be listening to anyone.

Again, There no rule for the sitaution you have found yourself in. We have all quoted the only 2 rules in the book that you can use. Delay and initative. There is nothing else rulewise that you can use or can back up your argument. The Gm is using a house rule and you want to use a RAW for delay that is conflicting with his house rule. There is NOTHING in the rulebook about delaying within a clumped group so no one can give you any concrete advice to backup any arguments. Its a sumposition.

We have all given you tips on how to approach the matter at the table.

My advice is take take the 2 rules, the advice everybody has given you on how to approach the sitaution,take a breath for 5 minutes and write down how you can combine it to help yourself. Its cleary something that we can not seem to do for you im afraid.

If it as simple as you seem to think it is a) you would have found the solution yourself or b) it would have been answered in the thread ages ago.
Gooduck


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Human Fighter wrote:
What's so hard to understand the simplicity of what this thread is trying to accomplish? I just want suggestions on how in the moment to grab someone's attention and make it sound convincing that you can use delay in that fashion by the rules, and in the quickest and time saving way.I understand lost causes can't be convinced, so I want to make quick and efficient attempt, then move on for everyone's sake. Understand now?

Okay, I'm giving up trying to be helpful, here. You've asked for advice. We've given advice. It's not our fault that you seem to think it's not good advice.

So, here you go, next time this happens, stand up and at the top of your voice shout:

"FOLLOW THE DAMNED RULES, MR GM!"

That's your sentence. Use it, and see what happens. I can guarantee you that it will get the GM's attention. Or you could, perhaps, try some of the other excellent advice that has been offered here.


Lincoln Hills wrote:
Perhaps it would be helpful to know how many times you've approached the GM already, and what arguments you have already used - arguments that have been dismissed. If nothing else we can get an idea of whether the GM has gotten emotionally invested in his opinion - which always makes discussion more challenging.

It's irrelevant. I'm looking for advice just on the occasion that I meet anyone, and encounter this issue. I will figure out how to have a discourse with those other people I've encountered using advice given here, or just do my own method, unless I choose they are a lost cause and move on.

simon hacker wrote:

Because its Impossible to give advice rule wise on something that

DOES NOT EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not asking for advice rules wise for something that will specifically say "you don't have NPC's go at the same time, and can't have PC's delay between your alternative clumped initiative roll for alike builds." I'm asking for ADVICE to help quickly PERSUADE someone who thinks this way. So, suggest to me to wear a bow tie, and do the Charleston if you feel it may help, but please, stop confusing this for me searching the rules for something I just mentioned.

simon hacker wrote:
You continue to keep asking the same question over and over again, everybody is giving you as much advice as they posibibly can and you don't seem to be listening to anyone.

I didn't really reciprocate that I recognized advice given, so I can understand how it may seem I haven't been listening to that. I have been repeating my original question because others including yourself seem to have confused what I had asked into something else. I simply want people to imagine a random GM doing this, and how you would feel it to best succeed in a timely manner convince them of the correct rules.

Anyways, I do appreciate what people have given me for advice, and quick reference cards seem to be a great idea. I do have cards for certain things already, and I could just bold important details and hand the card over for explaining what I'm pointing out. Also, I feel like I it's a good idea to go out of my way to suggest that if the GM is worried about messy initiative, and having a strong preference to clump, to just simply delay the creatures after me next round, or just let me have my turn and place me in front of all the NPC's so they're clumped again.


Human Figher wrote:
I simply want people to imagine a random GM doing this, and how you would feel it to best succeed in a timely manner convince them of the correct rules.

You're getting multiple answers because you're being cagey about your exact goals.

Sometimes you seem like you want the rules enforcedbecause they're the rules . The solution there is to prove they're the rules.

Sometimes it seems like you just want to hop in the middle of the group.

They don't have the same solution so you're getting different answers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I am not sure how complaining about how disappointed in everyone posting you are, and that you are not getting the exact kind of advice, in the exact way you desire, is helping you.

It certainly is helping anyone to provide better advice for you.


Bbt, I just don't like being misunderstood, but you're right, and I apologize.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, I am looking to get you what you want, as are a number of others.

That's a lot from a bunch of people you don't know, you've never met, and likely never meet.


Ok what about this then. Approach the gm before the session and ask how he/she will handle initiative and whether there will be clumped groups. Have the record cards ready on delay and initiative. Explain that sometimes you may wish to delay to go in the middle of the clump of mooks. Explain here why you may need to do it. I see the round something like this.
20 pc 1 goes
18 npc 2 goes
16 mook mob goblins (3)
16 a goblin 1
16 b goblin 2
16 c me
16 d goblin 3
10 npc 1
6 pc 2
Using record cards is the easiest way. It does not need another card all you do is write on it mook 1, mook 2, pc 3, mook 3
This will require no extra work on the gm's part.

Do you think this is ok?
If the gm says no then accept it and don't argue.
Don't waste time bringing it up in game otherwise you will anatogonise others and slow the game up others may resent you for this.
This way you know what to expect before the game begins and whether you need to adjust tactics.
above all be polite and respect what the gm says.

Liberty's Edge

Human Fighter wrote:
What's so hard to understand the simplicity of what this thread is trying to accomplish? I just want suggestions on how in the moment to grab someone's attention and make it sound convincing that you can use delay in that fashion by the rules, and in the quickest and time saving way.I understand lost causes can't be convinced, so I want to make quick and efficient attempt, then move on for everyone's sake. Understand now?

With all respect, this is exactly what all the conversation about clumping initiative is doing. Clumping initiative is not a rule supported practice. Therefore if playing by the rules, initiative isn't clumped, thus you can delay. If the procedure is being used to clump at the start, the rules state creatures go through initiative one at a time, regardless of what their initiative count is; thus, the rules allow exiting delay in between any two creatures. If clumping itiative is being implemented as a houserules, ask the guy who made up the houserules, since we don't know his rules.


Howie23 wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
What's so hard to understand the simplicity of what this thread is trying to accomplish? I just want suggestions on how in the moment to grab someone's attention and make it sound convincing that you can use delay in that fashion by the rules, and in the quickest and time saving way.I understand lost causes can't be convinced, so I want to make quick and efficient attempt, then move on for everyone's sake. Understand now?
With all respect, this is exactly what all the conversation about clumping initiative is doing. Clumping initiative is not a rule supported practice. Therefore if playing by the rules, initiative isn't clumped, thus you can delay. If the procedure is being used to clump at the start, the rules state creatures go through initiative one at a time, regardless of what their initiative count is; thus, the rules allow exiting delay in between any two creatures. If clumping itiative is being implemented as a houserules, ask the guy who made up the houserules, since we don't know his rules.

I think Howie has raised a good point here. I think the reason why most of us are struggling to give you the answer you require is because we have not come across this situation before. Those of us that do clump mooks together allow for delay actions it seems, so we have difficulty seeing why the GM in question will not allow it. I see your frustration but unless me know what the GM's ruling is its kind of difficult to give you a proper answer.

Myself I really don't see what the GM's problem is as delay would work regardless if you clump mooksm so you would have no problem in my games.


I am a big fan of quick reference cards, for both player and DM. This is just a little side note as I was thinking about it last night (not trying to hijack your thread Human Fighter just thought these would be useful).

I always tell players to keep quick notes on the following items.

Summoned monster - if you summon the same monster over and over, keep its stat handy.

Commonly used spells - if you cast, don't ask the DM to look up what your spell does, you should have that handy.

Combat maneuvers - I use a quick reference sheet for all of these.

Some skills - some skills require different DC's for different things so nice to have them handy.

As DM, quick monster cards or sheets.

I really wish that they had done a better job with the DM screen for pathfinder. I think they should take some items off and add other more often used items.

Sorry about the rant Human Fighter, just a few suggestions for players.

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