So why go gunslinger instead of just using a bow?


Advice

Liberty's Edge

So with misfire and having to but expensive ammo to reload as a free action isn't it just better to use a now and be a fighter or ranger?


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Hitting Touch AC is very nice but I prefer a bow ranger as well.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ash Williams. 'nuff said. :)

Both bows and guns have their pros and cons. For me it is really a flavor choice of what I wish to play on any given day.

Of course I like slings as well. :)

Grand Lodge

It's more fun to play with western tropes when you're a gunslinger. Also, for my gnome experimental gunslinger/grenadier alchemist from Alkenstar, crafting and experimenting on guns is the love of her life. Making a bow just wouldn't cut it for her.


You can't dual wield bows for one thing. I suppose somebody is going to try and get a four armed alchemist to do it and try and prove me wrong, but I don't wan't to involve extra arms in this because the same logic for using two longbows should let you use four revolvers which is much scarier. Advanced firearms are really cool in my opinion and if you are going to use western tropes they are a must. I think the vast majority of concepts are cool and playable and both bow and gun characters can be cool and effective.


Because it's much harder to play a character inspired by a Spanish grenadier or French dragoon without using guns and bombs.

To expand on the answer, it doesn't really matter what's "better." Part of the point of non-competitive games is that you don't have to make the "best" or most "optimal" decisions. Whether or not something's "better" is immaterial as to whether or not it's cool.


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Because you want to play a character instead of a game mechanic.


Touch AC is nice and all but having no bonus to damage aside from magic is pretty weak and even if you're using multiple round guns the cartridges are so expensive as to be unviable. 15 gold for a single bullet is ridiculous.


Most gunslingers get their dex to damage.

A fighter has weapon training/specilization to add

A ranger shooting at can't miss acs vs their favored enemy can be devastating.


"I like the flavor" is a good reason to do anything in this game. I mean, bows are easily the most powerful ranged weapon, but if you like the notion of your character using guns or crossbows or whatever, I wholly support doing the thing whose concept you like most.

I'm currently building a crossbow inquisitor, and I have no idea how I'm going to get all the feats to make it work, but a dwarf using a longbow never sat right with me.

So picking the thing that is the most powerful is not always the right decision, particularly if you would have more fun doing something else, and the biggest difference between a gunslinger and a ranger (etc.) is the flavor. The gunslinger is an amazingly flavorful class, and that alone justifies playing it.


Hooperdoo wrote:
Touch AC is nice and all but having no bonus to damage aside from magic is pretty weak and even if you're using multiple round guns the cartridges are so expensive as to be unviable. 15 gold for a single bullet is ridiculous.

They get specific language allowing them to use Deadly aim and they use dex to damage as well.


Don't go fighter or ranger, go zen archer.

As for why choose a gunslinger besides flavor, the adrenaline rush. Overall the ranger or fighter produce more damage on average but when everything comes together just right a gunslinger puts out so much damage that it is awe inspiring. The other 99% of the time gunslinger damage is just meh with misfires happening at the worse possible times, but there are those moments of glory which a ranger or fighter archer cannot duplicate.


Did not realize that they received dex to damage with gun training, good to know :) My friend is playing a gunslinger and I was disappointed with how under powered he was, that will help.

Now returning to my other problem is the cost of ammunition. It is so high as to make guns unviable.


Hooperdoo wrote:

Did not realize that they received dex to damage with gun training, good to know :) My friend is playing a gunslinger and I was disappointed with how under powered he was, that will help.

Now returning to my other problem is the cost of ammunition. It is so high as to make guns unviable.

Gunsmithing feat lets you make ammo at 10% cost, and Gunslingers get it for free, so that basically takes care of that. Granted, it's still kind of expensive, but so long as Gunslinger paces themselves and remembers that they're also proficient in all martial weapons, the supply shouldn't run too dry.


10% is still 13.5. Where as you can get 20 arrows for 1.


I'm not playing the gunslinger so I did not realize that it was 90% off the cost of ammo.

Thank you dear sir, I shall inform my homies :)


There is one reason, and one reason only: You want to play a gunslinger.


Edit: Didn't see the reply. No problem, Hooperdoo.


Flavor of a sniper rifle is just different than a bow.

but yup flavor mostly.

Though if it ever comes up to allowing me to play one. I'll play one just cause I rarely can


Hooperdoo wrote:

I'm not playing the gunslinger so I did not realize that it was 90% off the cost of ammo.

Thank you dear sir, I shall inform my homies :)

The sense I get from reading a few "the gunslinger is not powerful enough" threads is that the gunslinger class is one that requires some rules knowledge (and correct application of relevant rules) to become truly powerful. A lot of people seem to pick the class because it's cool (because it very much is) and end up paying too much for ammo, not making as many attacks as they ought to be making, etc.

So I might point your friends who have gunslinger characters to one of several gunslinger guides on this forum, not to turn them towards the dark arts of power gaming, but just to make sure they're taking advantage of all the stuff they should be.


What is that expensive thing you are talking about?
Thanks to gunsmithing you get to pay 1.2gp per shot (using paper alchemical cartiges), sure it might be a bit much at the first couple of levels but after that it's not really an issue in a normal game.

Liberty's Edge

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I thought alchemical cartridges were half cost so 6gp each.


Grimmzorch wrote:
I thought alchemical cartridges were half cost so 6gp each.

That is my understanding as well, but you don't really need alchemical cartridges until you start wanting to full attack anyway, and money should be easier to come by at those levels. If you're using a pistol, rapid reload already takes you down to a move action, and if you're planning on using a musket take the musket master archetype so you can reload with a move action after level 3.

Maybe keep some alchemical cartridges on your person for situations where you need to move and shoot, but the rest of your attacks at low level should be standard black powder.


SAD, dual barrel, dual wield, as well as gun+melee combination weapons, spellslinger, dragon pistol dohickery.


Mechanically Nope. But at least it's one of those weapon options that, with enough optimization, can carry its weight along with the party.

So if you really really want to, you can use guns this way.
And some of us really really want to. Especially when it's to use on things we're told are made for swording into, spearing into, or bowing into.

Even more especially when it's done in fully automatic fashion from several hundred feet in the air.

Although then you'd better have optimized the crap out of it because Burst lowers damage potential quite significantly. Good way to satisify your number-crunching spirit without posing a danger to party balance though.


I find the gunslinger to be more deadly than most bow builds. At close range that is. And if you Pick one of the two good archytpes that is even more true.


Yup. It's good to note that gunslingers are more often than not, close range, ranged fighters. compared to bow's which tend to be outside of easily charge ranges.

Likei nstead of sniper (though can be done for sure), it's more like the gun fighter from Equalibrium movie, or other "gun kata" stuff. While bow's tend to be pepper them from afar


Gunslingers hit real, real good


Actually Advanced guns will let you hit things from a few hundred feet away without much worry. However they don't hit as hard/often as you can with "early" firearms, as they can't get their reload down to a free action.

They're also hideously expensive, but if you know you'll be sticking to those, can allow you to save on certain otherwise necessary feats. What you take instead won't quite make up the difference DPRwise of course, but Advanced is great for that if guns are your weapon rather than your entire class and way of life.


But advanced firearms is usually not the basic assumsion.

Liberty's Edge

Hooperdoo wrote:
Did not realize that they received dex to damage with gun training, good to know :) My friend is playing a gunslinger and I was disappointed with how under powered he was, that will help.

What's his build? Gunslingers are potentially ridiculously awesome, but there are some tricks to building one, and if you screw 'em up, they can wind up seriously sub-par. The most obvious is Rapid Reload + Alchemical Cartridges (+ Musket Master if using a long gun). Without free-action reloading Gunslingers'll never be especially good, and that's just one example.

Hooperdoo wrote:
Now returning to my other problem is the cost of ammunition. It is so high as to make guns unviable.

Uh...at 6 GP a pop, alchemical cartridges don't cost that much, and non-cartridge bullets are even cheaper at 11 gp for 10. Beyond the very early levels, that's pocket change. It's more expensive than arrows, but arrows don't attack against Touch AC, either.

I have no idea where that 13.5 figure is coming from, that's not how much anything costs.


Grimmzorch wrote:
So with misfire and having to but expensive ammo to reload as a free action isn't it just better to use a now and be a fighter or ranger?

Because I can't be Porthos otherwise?

Flavour means more to me, as a player, than mechanics?
Because its cool?
An Allan Quatermain based character would look stupid with a bow.


I think of a Musket or Rifle as a bow replacement and a Revolver or Double Barreled Pistol as a kukri or wakizashi replacement. I have to disagree with the common wisdom here on "early" vs "advanced" firearms. I think that Revolvers are tops easily. If I can avoid wasting a feat on Rapid Reload and only have to reload the thing every six shots or waste an action having Abundant Ammunition cast on my cylinder before I start shooting I'm fine with that tradeoff. I find much of the flavor of the class is ruined for me when you don't have to count bullets, just the gold it costs to shoot. I have also seen a dual wielding Pistolero make sword and bow characters look like clumsy chumps too many times to discount the viability of the class.


Vaellen wrote:

Hitting Touch AC is very nice but I prefer a bow ranger as well.

Agreed, touch is very good, but longer range and focusing on str to complement the dex means that the archer can always melee pretty well too.

Also bows will always be a classy weapon.


It's really a question of flavor. Sure, it can cost you a lot of GP at the begining, especially if you don't have the downtime to craft your amo, but I've seen some good character with vital strike (the 1d12 is pretty good for that, and you can go ''outside'' of the almost mandatory musket master/ pistollero build with that).

One main problem: good bye the stealth attack ;)

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