Tesla Motors release all their patents.


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Surprised anyone hasn't mentioned this yet.

All Our Patent Are Belong To You

Elon Musk wrote:
Yesterday, there was a wall of Tesla patents in the lobby of our Palo Alto headquarters. That is no longer the case. They have been removed, in the spirit of the open source movement, for the advancement of electric vehicle technology.


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I approve.


Awesome move.


Fly, little patents, fly free!


I guess the lawsuits to push them out of business have taken a bigger toll than I thought. This looks a lot like a desperation move.


MagusJanus wrote:
I guess the lawsuits to push them out of business have taken a bigger toll than I thought. This looks a lot like a desperation move.

Perhaps.

But moving forward, the possibilities it might enable are far more interesting than the effect on the Tesla company to me. Regardless of what this might say about corporate sieges and attacks. We already know big business is….big.


Well, now that they've open-sourced it, it doesn't matter if they're attacked or not. The technology is out there for others to follow in their footsteps. The auto makers lost this one.

It will be interesting to see how many companies use this tech. Bet the big ones will.


But... how are the car engineers going to get PAIIIIIIIIID???!!!oneone


If they released the patents, can someone else claim them, then? I know nothing about U.S. patent law.


Don't quote me on this, but I believe releasing them just means they're public. Someone else can't come in and say "mine now!" and gain the restricted access the original creator/holder once had, but they're free to use the patented material without seeking permission, contracts, etc., having to pay fees to the original patent-holder, or risking a lawsuit for patent violation. And so is everyone else.


Orthos is correct. Technically, Tesla still holds the patents; they're just not restricting usage of the patented items.

If Tesla had given up the patents, then someone could come along and patent the items again.


Well, they do sort of have a caveat "built in," if you will:

Elon Musk wrote:
Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology.

(emphasis mine)

They have to keep their backs clear against e.g. anyone trying to patent parts of their patents or going against the open source idea.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MagusJanus wrote:

Well, now that they've open-sourced it, it doesn't matter if they're attacked or not. The technology is out there for others to follow in their footsteps. The auto makers lost this one.

It will be interesting to see how many companies use this tech. Bet the big ones will.

Or not...The Big Three do have a rather cozy relationship with Big Oil... and the market for 70,000 cars is a bit ... limited.

At this point, I think hybrids are more practical for most of the car market.


LazarX wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:

Well, now that they've open-sourced it, it doesn't matter if they're attacked or not. The technology is out there for others to follow in their footsteps. The auto makers lost this one.

It will be interesting to see how many companies use this tech. Bet the big ones will.

Or not...The Big Three do have a rather cozy relationship with Big Oil... and the market for 70,000 cars is a bit ... limited.

At this point, I think hybrids are more practical for most of the car market.

Don't all of the Big Three already have an all-electric model out? No reason they can't adapt some of Tesla's tech if it's useful.


Now you to will be able to build your own high speed car that will only go that speed for a mile or so.


Vod Canockers wrote:
Now you to will be able to build your own high speed car that will only go that speed for a mile or so.

Yeah, because that's what current electric cars are like.


thejeff wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
Now you to will be able to build your own high speed car that will only go that speed for a mile or so.
Yeah, because that's what current electric cars are like.

Okay, let's be fair...

2 miles or so! :P

In all seriousness, a mile or so is probably what would result if most people tried to build their own electrical cars. Assuming the electricity-related death rate didn't go up.


MagusJanus wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
Now you to will be able to build your own high speed car that will only go that speed for a mile or so.
Yeah, because that's what current electric cars are like.

Okay, let's be fair...

2 miles or so! :P

In all seriousness, a mile or so is probably what would result if most people tried to build their own electrical cars. Assuming the electricity-related death rate didn't go up.

Yeah, but I doubt the home-built gas car rate would be much better.


thejeff wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
Now you to will be able to build your own high speed car that will only go that speed for a mile or so.
Yeah, because that's what current electric cars are like.

Okay, let's be fair...

2 miles or so! :P

In all seriousness, a mile or so is probably what would result if most people tried to build their own electrical cars. Assuming the electricity-related death rate didn't go up.

Yeah, but I doubt the home-built gas car rate would be much better.

If you get one of the high-quality homemade ones, you might make it to the end of your driveway before you ran out of gas or your engine exploded.


thejeff wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
Now you to will be able to build your own high speed car that will only go that speed for a mile or so.
Yeah, because that's what current electric cars are like.

True, but no one else was advertising their all electric car as a high performance sportscar. Promising highspeed and long endurance, but not mentioning that it was one or the other.


Vod Canockers wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
Now you to will be able to build your own high speed car that will only go that speed for a mile or so.
Yeah, because that's what current electric cars are like.
True, but no one else was advertising their all electric car as a high performance sportscar. Promising highspeed and long endurance, but not mentioning that it was one or the other.

Unless I've missed something, Tesla delivers both, it's just expensive.


I think the problem is that a lot of people are comparing it to a standard gasoline car.

The issue is that the Tesla won't meet the same endurance as a standard car before its "fuel" needs refilled. The reason why isn't battery capacity; the Tesla cars typically beat out even most of the space program on that one.

The issue is how much the Tesla batteries fuel. A gasoline-powered car uses gasoline primarily for the engine and some recharging of the battery, while the battery itself powers the rest of the car. The Tesla batteries have to not only power the wheels themselves, but also power everything else electronic in the car. So while they have a larger capacity, they're also being used a lot more.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
LazarX wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:

Well, now that they've open-sourced it, it doesn't matter if they're attacked or not. The technology is out there for others to follow in their footsteps. The auto makers lost this one.

It will be interesting to see how many companies use this tech. Bet the big ones will.

Or not...The Big Three do have a rather cozy relationship with Big Oil... and the market for 70,000 cars is a bit ... limited.

At this point, I think hybrids are more practical for most of the car market.

Don't all of the Big Three already have an all-electric model out? No reason they can't adapt some of Tesla's tech if it's useful.

None of them have a car you'd want to buy. They've created EVs as concept cars and hybrids, but none have any all-electrics in production.


LazarX wrote:
thejeff wrote:
LazarX wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:

Well, now that they've open-sourced it, it doesn't matter if they're attacked or not. The technology is out there for others to follow in their footsteps. The auto makers lost this one.

It will be interesting to see how many companies use this tech. Bet the big ones will.

Or not...The Big Three do have a rather cozy relationship with Big Oil... and the market for 70,000 cars is a bit ... limited.

At this point, I think hybrids are more practical for most of the car market.

Don't all of the Big Three already have an all-electric model out? No reason they can't adapt some of Tesla's tech if it's useful.
None of them have a car you'd want to buy. They've created EVs as concept cars and hybrids, but none have any all-electrics in production.

Yeah, I guess you're right. The Volt is from Nissan, which isn't Big 3. I'd kind of thought they were a bit further along.


MagusJanus wrote:

I think the problem is that a lot of people are comparing it to a standard gasoline car.

The issue is that the Tesla won't meet the same endurance as a standard car before its "fuel" needs refilled. The reason why isn't battery capacity; the Tesla cars typically beat out even most of the space program on that one.

The issue is how much the Tesla batteries fuel. A gasoline-powered car uses gasoline primarily for the engine and some recharging of the battery, while the battery itself powers the rest of the car. The Tesla batteries have to not only power the wheels themselves, but also power everything else electronic in the car. So while they have a larger capacity, they're also being used a lot more.

Possibly, though I really doubt that's a significant factor. If nothing else it's far less efficient to burn gas to run an alternator to charge a battery to power the electronics than to just run them off the battery in the first place.

The Roadster can apparently get more than 200 miles on a charge. That's low for a gas car, but that's not the real problem. The real problem is that it takes hours to recharge the battery, but only minutes to fill the gas tank.

OTOH, if you're commuting within the car's range then it doesn't matte.


It depends on the gasoline car design. A lot of manuals, at least the old ones, can recharge a battery without the engine even on. Just pop the clutch and ride it downhill.

Not certain if electric cars can do that, but it would be a good idea for them to look into.

Nevermind. They already did.

So, realistically, it seems the dependency upon recharging and massive lack of infrastructure combined with an increasingly dodgy power grid is the major issue.


thejeff wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:

I think the problem is that a lot of people are comparing it to a standard gasoline car.

The issue is that the Tesla won't meet the same endurance as a standard car before its "fuel" needs refilled. The reason why isn't battery capacity; the Tesla cars typically beat out even most of the space program on that one.

The issue is how much the Tesla batteries fuel. A gasoline-powered car uses gasoline primarily for the engine and some recharging of the battery, while the battery itself powers the rest of the car. The Tesla batteries have to not only power the wheels themselves, but also power everything else electronic in the car. So while they have a larger capacity, they're also being used a lot more.

Possibly, though I really doubt that's a significant factor. If nothing else it's far less efficient to burn gas to run an alternator to charge a battery to power the electronics than to just run them off the battery in the first place.

The Roadster can apparently get more than 200 miles on a charge. That's low for a gas car, but that's not the real problem. The real problem is that it takes hours to recharge the battery, but only minutes to fill the gas tank.

OTOH, if you're commuting within the car's range then it doesn't matte.

You can get more than half of a full battery charge or so in about 30 minutes, I believe, if you use one of Tesla's super chargers.

This is an article from about a year and a half ago:
Going the distance: driving the Tesla Model S in the real world
I know I also posted an article on Facebook a while ago where they showed a map of the Superchargers and how you could actually drive for free across the US (from West coast to East coast) - free because you've paid an up-front fee to use the Superchargers and they are then free to use forward.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GentleGiant wrote:


You can get more than half of a full battery charge or so in about 30 minutes, I believe, if you use one of Tesla's super chargers.

Could you imagine what it would be like at your local gas station if each customer took a half hour?


The local gas stations could be best described as war zones if that happened. As it stands now, you almost need a gun and a willingness to shoot to kill just to make it across the parking lot alive some days.


thejeff wrote:
LazarX wrote:
thejeff wrote:
LazarX wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:

Well, now that they've open-sourced it, it doesn't matter if they're attacked or not. The technology is out there for others to follow in their footsteps. The auto makers lost this one.

It will be interesting to see how many companies use this tech. Bet the big ones will.

Or not...The Big Three do have a rather cozy relationship with Big Oil... and the market for 70,000 cars is a bit ... limited.

At this point, I think hybrids are more practical for most of the car market.

Don't all of the Big Three already have an all-electric model out? No reason they can't adapt some of Tesla's tech if it's useful.
None of them have a car you'd want to buy. They've created EVs as concept cars and hybrids, but none have any all-electrics in production.
Yeah, I guess you're right. The Volt is from Nissan, which isn't Big 3. I'd kind of thought they were a bit further along.

I thought Chevrolet was part of GM, and so big 3 ? Nissan sells the Leaf, not the Volt.

Opel is defintely a GM subsidiary, and sells the Opel Ampera. Maybe in Europe only. It's not a fully electrical car though : you have got a fuel-burning electrical generator onboard.

For my part, I bought a Renault Zoé, with a smallish one hundred + miles autonomy, and just plug it at home for a two hour refill which cost me 1 $. It suffices for 99.99% of my driving needs (excluding only the long range vacations), and I haven't seen a gas station for a year...


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Smarnil actually knows what he's talking about. Gas stations wouldn't be crowded when you no longer need them. If you are on a long-distance road trip, you'll want to find a diner or mall with a power outlet, though, until fast-charging infrastructure becomes more common).

In Norway (my country), plug-in cars now are more than 10% of total new car sales, and growing faster than ever. Interestingly, the growth is largest in the 'oil cities', though maybe that is the Tesla being a status symbol (and politically correct too).
The first fully electric ferry is also starting up this year, since charging tech now has reached the point where it can be charged wirelessly (induction) during loading/unloading.

To the original topic: Tesla granting free patent use is a very good thing that suggests Tesla is concerned with competing against fossil cars, not against other electric cars. Getting more total plug-in cars on the road drives infrastructure and attitude changes which ultimately will help Tesla. And hopefully the environment.


Smarnil le couard wrote:
Yeah, I guess you're right. The Volt is from Nissan, which isn't Big 3. I'd kind of thought they were a bit further along.
I thought Chevrolet was part of GM, and so big 3 ? Nissan sells the Leaf, not the Volt.

I was thinking Leaf, but typed Volt. Volt is a hybrid.


Well with the release of the patents two things may happen that would be good.

1) It will put minds to working on it. Which means somebody could come with longer endurance for the batteries...faster recharge...etc.

2) If other people will build these cars (and I think the big three would be interested...as they are not that tied to Big oil as some may think...) there will be more cars like this on the road...so it will increase the demand and provide incentive people to actually invest in the kinda of infrastructure that is needed. I can see things like parking garages, hotels, heck movie theaters(go see a two hour movie while you car recharges...), etc. invest in recharges as a service.

Heck I can see gas stations become recharge centers with things to keep people entertain for a 1/2 hour while their cars refuel.

I think this a good and Smart move by Telsa


randomwalker wrote:

Smarnil actually knows what he's talking about. Gas stations wouldn't be crowded when you no longer need them. If you are on a long-distance road trip, you'll want to find a diner or mall with a power outlet, though, until fast-charging infrastructure becomes more common).

Actually, you'll want to find motels with power outlets until the fast-charging infrastructure is more common. It's the fast ones that take a half hour, that's when you need a mall or diner.

In the distance driving article above they stopped over night and for a meal for a 360 mile drive.


thejeff wrote:
randomwalker wrote:

Smarnil actually knows what he's talking about. Gas stations wouldn't be crowded when you no longer need them. If you are on a long-distance road trip, you'll want to find a diner or mall with a power outlet, though, until fast-charging infrastructure becomes more common).

Actually, you'll want to find motels with power outlets until the fast-charging infrastructure is more common. It's the fast ones that take a half hour, that's when you need a mall or diner.

In the distance driving article above they stopped over night and for a meal for a 360 mile drive.

(About the Leaf/Volt misunderstanding) That's okay, fingerfumbling happens.

It seems that the Volt is built on the same philosophy as the Ampera : not a true hybrid, but an electric car with an onboard generator and tiny batteries, instead of the huge batteries true EV get. Not my cup of tea, because of the double maintenance needed.

For the sake of scaling and comparison, the powerful AC plug I got at home can fully charge my car in two hours and a half (it's got a 10kW output). It costed me an extra 1000 € (something like 800 US$) on top of the 13 k€ car (10 grands). Not cheap, but not an unattainable luxury either.

The sturdier, customer-friendly (and vandal resistant) outlets you can usually find at malls can fully charge a car in one hour to one hour and a half, tops (22kW on a 24 kWh battery, including some deperdition). Some of them are even more powerful (43 kW).

All those recharging times suppose that you arrive at the outlet with an absolutely empty battery, which in practice almost never happen...

First, because I don't usually drive a hundred miles to a diner : hunger would makes me stop well before that!

And second, because the trick is to plug your car every time you can. It's very different from a thermic car, with which you usually go to the gas station every other week when you start to run on fumes. With an EV, you drive every day to the gas station (aka home).


Smarnil le couard wrote:

The sturdier, customer-friendly (and vandal resistant) outlets you can usually find at malls can fully charge a car in one hour to one hour and a half, tops (22kW on a 24 kWh battery, including some deperdition). Some of them are even more powerful (43 kW).

All those recharging times suppose that you arrive at the outlet with an absolutely empty battery, which in practice almost never happen...

First, because I don't usually drive a hundred miles to a diner : hunger would makes me stop well before that!

And second, because the trick is to plug your car every time you can. It's very different from a thermic car, with which you usually go to the gas station every other week when you start to run on fumes. With an EV, you drive every day to the gas station...

Yeah, it's fine in practice, as long as you're not trying to drive long distance. For daily commuting, errands and the like, no problem.

Driving down to Florida to visit the parents, that's when you have trouble.

It's not that you drive 100 miles to go to a diner, it's that on a normal long distance drive, meals are one of the few times you're likely to stop for long enough to get a significant charge. And frankly, I'll often skip that and eat in the car. :)


Don't dine and drive, thejeff!


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Fly, Free market, Fly! Compete and make the best man win! Give me lower prices for better products! Let me vote with my dollars!


thejeff wrote:

Yeah, it's fine in practice, as long as you're not trying to drive long distance. For daily commuting, errands and the like, no problem.

Driving down to Florida to visit the parents, that's when you have trouble.

Of course. For that kind of trip, I would rent a (thermic) car.

Another point is that distances tend to be smaller this side of the Atlantic. My previous car had a 750-800 miles range (actual, not the marketing kind of range), which meant I could cross the country on the same refill, north to south or east to west, and then some.

thejeff wrote:
It's not that you drive 100 miles to go to a diner, it's that on a normal long distance drive, meals are one of the few times you're likely to stop for long enough to get a significant charge. And frankly, I'll often skip that and eat in the car. :)

Yep. If you do long range trips on a very regular basis, you shouldn't get an electric car. It's an purely economical kind of question : your daily savings on gas, against the costs of car rental.

It all depends on your transportation needs, as an individual : for some, EV is better; for others, it's a bad choice. Just ask yourself how many times a year you need to do more than 100 miles in a row, and you will know if electrons are good for you (and your wallet).

In my case, I only need a thermic car something like twice a year, for vacations. The rental cost is less than a month of gas, so it was a no brainer (gas is also more expensive this side of the Atlantic : 4,35 € per gallon, almost 6 $).

EDIT : oops, it seems that in my previous post I made a mistake in the euro-dollar conversion. It's 1,25 $ for 1 €, not the other way around.


As was pointed out in the article I linked to above, Tesla has tried to put their superchargers in places where you have easy access to "entertainment" for the half hour to an hour it takes to charge your car (restaurants, malls etc.).
I'll have to dig up the article where it shows that you can cross the US by recharging at the Tesla superchargers.

Edit:
Here we go - Tesla Model S Owners Can Now Drive Across The Country For Free
Add "normal" charging stations on top of that.


GentleGiant wrote:

As was pointed out in the article I linked to above, Tesla has tried to put their superchargers in places where you have easy access to "entertainment" for the half hour to an hour it takes to charge your car (restaurants, malls etc.).

I'll have to dig up the article where it shows that you can cross the US by recharging at the Tesla superchargers.

Edit:
Here we go - Tesla Model S Owners Can Now Drive Across The Country For Free
Add "normal" charging stations on top of that.

Yeah, I get it. It's doable. It's still not generally how I want to stretch out my cross-country drives. I'd rather rent a gas-powered car or hybrid.

I get that they're doing what they can and that for normal commuter type driving, it's great, but that it takes a half-hour to an hour to "refuel" when you need to is probably the biggest problem to solve.
Other than cost.


That's very nice of them.

Liberty's Edge

GM has the Spark, Ford has the Focus Electric, and Chrysler has the Fiat 500e.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Krensky wrote:
GM has the Spark

Do the Decepticons know that?


Renault has the Zoé, the Kangoo VE and the Twizy, Peugeot has the Ion, BMW has the i3, Volkswagen has the eUp...

Liberty's Edge

Smarnil le couard wrote:
Renault has the Zoé, the Kangoo VE and the Twizy, Peugeot has the Ion, BMW has the i3, Volkswagen has the eUp...

I was responding to the assertion the Big 3 US manufacturers don't have any EVs.

The Exchange

LazarX wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:


You can get more than half of a full battery charge or so in about 30 minutes, I believe, if you use one of Tesla's super chargers.

Could you imagine what it would be like at your local gas station if each customer took a half hour?

Had this conversation a half year ago. The idea that people with tesla would outnumber stations even twenty to one means a wait would push people to fight over a power charger and allocating a time between which they have acess to a charger would force some to charge their car at three am or when they would need to be at work...so anyone who walked off and didnt come back at the right time to remove their car for the next user would piss folks off. The solution requires a ring road around every ten thousand tesla owning resident community with superchargers to teslas at a two to one ratio allowing mass migration of tesla drivers.

The Exchange

I do not see charging stations working well in america, people WILL snap waiting for them and especially for having to wait for someone else that gets there first. Charging at home with enough range to get there and back might work well enough though if the battery tech gets there


In theory, for most people it's already there. And that's how you're supposed to use them. The Leaf has something like a 70 mile range, which will easily handle most commutes and general driving around, especially if you can plug in at work.

The charging stations are really only for long distance trips.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Smarnil le couard wrote:
It seems that the Volt is built on the same philosophy as the Ampera : not a true hybrid, but an electric car with an onboard generator and tiny batteries, instead of the huge batteries true EV get. Not my cup of tea, because of the double maintenance needed.

By definition, that is a hybrid vehicle. There is more than one variety of hybrid. The Prius is a bit more of a gas car than the Ampera, but the basic operation is the same.

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