Getting an AOO while charging


Rules Questions


So I have a reach weapon out and some one is spirited charging my wizard ally with a lance. If I do a cmb check to trip him does he get his charging bonus ie. 3x damage +2 to hit - 2 ac against me, against me and the wizard, or do I get hit with a regular attack no + 2 hit no charging bonuses with the wizard eating the charge if I miss.


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The Wizard is the target of the charge, not you. The charger takes a -2 penalty to AC from all sources for one round, but he only receives his charging bonuses against the Wizard. His Attack of Opportunity against you is treated as a normal attack.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think there is some missing information in this post.

Where are you and your ally positioned in relation to the lance-wielder, and do you have Improved Trip?


I don't think that info is necessary. The question is: Does a charging creature who may take an attack of opportunity mid-charge receive his charging bonus on the attack of opportunity. The answer is no; A charge is a special full-round action, granting certain bonuses within itself. Additional actions (like an attack of opportunity) don't receive these bonuses because they're different actions outside the special full-round action.


He cuts through my reach threatened zone to get at the wizard.
I do not Have improved trip that's why I provoke form him.


Did you trip him with your weapon? If so, he wouldn't be able reach you for the AoO, unless he had a reach weapon, too. It you aren't in a threatened square when you take the action, there's no AoO.

To the original point, I agree with the other posters: charge bonuses only apply against the target, and the ac penalty applies against everyone.

The Exchange

Sinnoth A. Jorinn wrote:
So I have a reach weapon out and some one is spirited charging my wizard ally with a lance.

They both have reach weapons, so they threaten each other at 10 feet (but not at 5).

If he is coming within 5 feet of you, you may want to trip him *without* a weapon (use your foot). Since he has a lance you wouldn't provoke an AoO back. (Maybe from his mount but they usually have less of a chance to hit than the rider.)

Sczarni

Gwen Smith wrote:
If so, he wouldn't be able reach you for the AoO, unless he had a reach weapon, too.

Some people just don't read the full post before answering, do they?

"So I have a reach weapon out and some one is spirited charging my wizard ally with a lance"

Belafon wrote:

They both have reach weapons, so they threaten each other at 10 feet (but not at 5).

If he is coming within 5 feet of you, you may want to trip him *without* a weapon (use your foot).

You said so in your comment, then contradict it in the next sentence.

He has a reach weapon also, so when the enemy is 5 feet away from the OP; he wouldn't threaten that square, and wouldn't have AoO.

And he can't CMB trip with his feet unless he is a monk.

Just sit back and think for a second about an "ordinary" person trying to kick a full speed charging horse.

The Exchange

Kitora wrote:
Gwen Smith wrote:
If so, he wouldn't be able reach you for the AoO, unless he had a reach weapon, too.

Some people just don't read the full post before answering, do they?

"So I have a reach weapon out and some one is spirited charging my wizard ally with a lance"

Belafon wrote:

They both have reach weapons, so they threaten each other at 10 feet (but not at 5).

If he is coming within 5 feet of you, you may want to trip him *without* a weapon (use your foot).

You said so in your comment, then contradict it in the next sentence.

He has a reach weapon also, so when the enemy is 5 feet away from the OP; he wouldn't threaten that square, and wouldn't have AoO.

And he can't CMB trip with his feet unless he is a monk.

Just sit back and think for a second about an "ordinary" person trying to kick a full speed charging horse.

A) Peace, Friend.

B) You are correct that unless he has some way to threaten at 5' he wouldn't be able to take that AoO. (AKA be a monk.) I was mistaken. But if you threaten a square you can make a trip attack without a weapon. (I said "feet" as a generic.)

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

This is why I said it was important where everyone is located when this charge happens.

Two very different things can happen depending on whether you are standing adjacent to your Wizard buddy and between him and the charger or to the side of him.

Sczarni

Belafon wrote:


A) Peace, Friend.

B) You are correct that unless he has some way to threaten at 5' he wouldn't be able to take that AoO. (AKA be a monk.) I was mistaken. But if you threaten a square you can make a trip attack without a weapon. (I said "feet" as a generic.)

Don't mind me if I seems to be grumpy, I need more coffee. But it's annoying when people answer the post with another question, that has already been answered by the original post.

So to sum up from the above, the charging enemy does not have an AoO when you, Sinnoth, attempt a CMB trip on him. He is doing a full round special action and cannot do anything else while charging. (except drawing a weapon if he has +1 bab)

Now, with Ride-by attack feat; you can argue that he can. But that is a completely different story.


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Kitora wrote:


So to sum up from the above, the charging enemy does not have an AoO when you, Sinnoth, attempt a CMB trip on him. He is doing a full round special action and cannot do anything else while charging. (except drawing a weapon if he has +1 bab)

False. Someone else can trigger an AoO from you when it is your turn. This always involves you being the middle of some other action (either cause you triggered an AoO from them or they readied an action based on some action you are taking). That does not prevent you from taking the AoO. AoO's are not defined actions and do not have any limitations in this particular regard.

Being in the middle of a charge, move, full-attack, or any other action does not prevent you from getting your AoO.

Sczarni

bbangerter wrote:


False. Someone else can trigger an AoO from you when it is your turn. This always involves you being the middle of some other action (either cause you triggered an AoO from them or they readied an action based on some action you are taking). That does not prevent you from taking the AoO. AoO's are not defined actions and do not have any limitations in this particular regard.

Being in the middle of a charge, move, full-attack, or any other action does not prevent you from getting your AoO.

You are correct. Even though I think charge is different.

But anyway, so let says that the charging enemy gets the AoO; he won't get bonus/penalties against Sinnoth.
And let says that Sinnoh is still alive after the AoO, and he tripped the charging enemy. But he is still within reach of his original target. Would he still be able to attack the target? (With the prone penalty of course.)


Correct. The charge bonuses are not added for the charging characters AoO as that is a separate distinct attack from the charge attack.

If he is tripped within range of the target he was charging he still gets to finish his action and make the attack (at -4 for being prone, +2 for charging, net -2).

If he is tripped outside of the range of his target his turn is over as his action is no longer valid (he cannot continue moving to complete his charge while prone).

Now if someone would just invent a prone charger feat, for which I have this weird image of a person crawling spider like to attack someone.


Sinnoth A. Jorinn wrote:
So I have a reach weapon out and some one is spirited charging my wizard ally with a lance. If I do a cmb check to trip him does he get his charging bonus ie. 3x damage +2 to hit - 2 ac against me, against me and the wizard, or do I get hit with a regular attack no + 2 hit no charging bonuses with the wizard eating the charge if I miss.

Note that the -2 to AC also applies to his CMB, making him easier to trip.

Though tripping may not do more than give a mounted character a -4 to hit and AC.

The Exchange

thorin001 wrote:


Note that the -2 to AC also applies to his CMB, making him easier to trip.

Though tripping may not do more than give a mounted character a -4 to hit and AC.

-2 to CMD

Actually, his best bet is probably to try to trip the mount (which also has the -2). It's a little bit harder because of the multiple sets of legs but it wouldn't provoke from the rider at all and wouldn't provoke from the mount unless it had reach.

My first post was all kinds of wrong. Combat maneuvers only provoke from the target of the maneuver.


Assuming he is at least medium, and the opponent's mount is something like a horse (Large but no reach), tripping the mount would not result in an AoO (not threatened by the target) and would halt the charge altogether. You do have to worry about the size and stability bonuses a horse gets though.

On the other hand, tripping the rider could work. Trip says the target is knocked prone, and prone is defined as laying on the ground. So you could definitely argue that tripping a mounted rider unseats him from his mount.


Samasboy1 wrote:

Assuming he is at least medium, and the opponent's mount is something like a horse (Large but no reach), tripping the mount would not result in an AoO (not threatened by the target) and would halt the charge altogether. You do have to worry about the size and stability bonuses a horse gets though.

On the other hand, tripping the rider could work. Trip says the target is knocked prone, and prone is defined as laying on the ground. So you could definitely argue that tripping a mounted rider unseats him from his mount.

Don't expect it to work as there is a specific feat to take someone out of the saddle.

unseat


thorin001 wrote:
Samasboy1 wrote:

Assuming he is at least medium, and the opponent's mount is something like a horse (Large but no reach), tripping the mount would not result in an AoO (not threatened by the target) and would halt the charge altogether. You do have to worry about the size and stability bonuses a horse gets though.

On the other hand, tripping the rider could work. Trip says the target is knocked prone, and prone is defined as laying on the ground. So you could definitely argue that tripping a mounted rider unseats him from his mount.

Don't expect it to work as there is a specific feat to take someone out of the saddle.

unseat

Unseat is not the be-all-end-all of dismounting a rider. Unseat works sorta like Grab, aka, you do your melee attack and then get a free bull rush (like Grab lets you do a melee attack and get a free grapple without AoO).

Trip says the target is prone; prone says the target is on the ground. Nothing in the rules (as far as I've seen) make riders immune to trip. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

From reading the descriptions of Bull Rush and Grapple (after standard to maintain, then using the move action), either can take a rider off their mount. The grapple move should allow the rider a free grapple check to break, as moving them off the mount puts them in a hazardous location (fall damage).

Drag and Reposition are iffy... technically, the rider would be put in a hazardous location due to taking falling damage (d6, more if flying), which would rule out Reposition; with Drag, you move the rider through the mount's space (which the rider shares), so also questionable.

To the OP... with the errata to Mounted Charge, it is up to the DM how they want to interpret it. Previously, the language was clear: only the charge attack would deal the extra hit/damage. Now, it says "first attack." I'm pretty sure this is meant to only apply to the iterative attacks a rider makes (with pounce) and NOT to AoO, but your DM may interpret it differently. FYI, there are THREE questions on Charging on that FAQ. Regardless, only 1 attack the rider makes has the hit/damage bonus from a lance charge, so if he gets the bonus damage on you, he won't get it on the wizard.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ru6

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I was under the impression that if a creature was charging, and made an attack of opportunity prior to attacking the designated foe, they got the +2 to the attack, but lost the +2 against the designated target.

Now, this may be not RAW, but it has been working fine in home games.


reyyvin wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
Samasboy1 wrote:

Assuming he is at least medium, and the opponent's mount is something like a horse (Large but no reach), tripping the mount would not result in an AoO (not threatened by the target) and would halt the charge altogether. You do have to worry about the size and stability bonuses a horse gets though.

On the other hand, tripping the rider could work. Trip says the target is knocked prone, and prone is defined as laying on the ground. So you could definitely argue that tripping a mounted rider unseats him from his mount.

Don't expect it to work as there is a specific feat to take someone out of the saddle.

unseat

Unseat is not the be-all-end-all of dismounting a rider. Unseat works sorta like Grab, aka, you do your melee attack and then get a free bull rush (like Grab lets you do a melee attack and get a free grapple without AoO).

Trip says the target is prone; prone says the target is on the ground. Nothing in the rules (as far as I've seen) make riders immune to trip. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

From reading the descriptions of Bull Rush and Grapple (after standard to maintain, then using the move action), either can take a rider off their mount. The grapple move should allow the rider a free grapple check to break, as moving them off the mount puts them in a hazardous location (fall damage).

Drag and Reposition are iffy... technically, the rider would be put in a hazardous location due to taking falling damage (d6, more if flying), which would rule out Reposition; with Drag, you move the rider through the mount's space (which the rider shares), so also questionable.

To the OP... with the errata to Mounted Charge, it is up to the DM how they want to interpret it. Previously, the language was clear: only the charge attack would deal the extra hit/damage. Now, it says "first attack." I'm pretty sure this is meant to only apply to the...

RAW wise it is a gray area which is why I said not to expect it to work. Some GMs will be fine with it, and some will not. And many mounted players will scream bloody murder if it is that easy to shut down their character.


The feat allows you to make a free Bull Rush if you deal damage when charging a mounted opponent. It spells out the result if the Bull Rush is successful. But that raises the question, wouldn't unseating the rider be the result on any successful Bull Rush rather than only the free attempt granted by the feat?
You just pushed the rider, not the mount.

Trip seems like it would be similar. Except instead of knocking him off, you are pulling him down.

Dragging a stationary rider off a horse IS something easy to do. Which is why cavalry was used against dispersed infantry. Its too easy to get bogged down in massed ranks and un-horsed.


thorin001 wrote:
RAW wise it is a gray area which is why I said not to expect it to work. Some GMs will be fine with it, and some will not. And many mounted players will scream bloody murder if it is that easy to shut down their character.

Its easy to shut down any character, but there is usually a solution. In this case, increase CMD. If you rely on a strategy, learn its weaknesses and how to mitigate them. My main PFS is a mounted Paladin/Monk/Oracle - and being knocked off my Griffon sucks

Sczarni

Belafon wrote:


My first post was all kinds of wrong. Combat maneuvers only provoke from the target of the maneuver.

Wow, totally forgot about that. I knew something was wrong about the rider getting an AoO, but couldn't figure out why.

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