Connections between Golarion, Earth, and the Numerian starship's home planet


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Chalk this up as a crazy conspiracy theory of mine, but I think there's some kind of weird connection between these three worlds. For one, we know two of them hold entities of terrible power (Earth has Cthulhu, Golarion has Rovagug, who is exceptionally more powerful than squid-face in R'lyeh), and...

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR IRON GODS ADVENTURE PATH

Spoiler:
the "aliens" on the Numerian starship are actually humans. Sure its easy to write off the fact that humans exist on three distant but very different planets via "a deity did it", but why?

Based on what was said in the new Numeria source book, the space ship's origins are from another galaxy entirely. Now, we don't know if Golarion and Earth exist in the same galaxy, or even the same galactic supercluster, but let's assume they do. That means the Numerian starship's origins lie in the Small Magellanic Cloud, or perhaps the Andromeda Galaxy. That means, at least on a planar level, these three planets are hella close to each other. And Baba Yaga's a thing.

...Okay I don't know where I'm going with this. And I'm aware these things will never be clarified as coincidences or something else but hell, speculation is fun, eh?

Small tangent: So in this crackpot conspiracy theory, wouldn't that mean that the Numerian starship's home world also holds some horrible entity? If that entity got out, that means the space ship was running away from it and crashed on Golarion, meaning whatever entity they're running away from is either lurking nearby in the solar system, or maybe even on the planet itself...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hmmmm makes me think of Mystara. They had a spaceship that had crashed on the planet as well.

I was never sure whether the ship came from our Earth in the future (It was called HMS Beagle or something). Of course that whole thing was kind of "adopted" from Blackmoor, the Arneson setting.

I really miss the Gonzo age.


I love fantasy conspiracy theories!

We can probably safely assume that Lovecraftian monsters are everywhere on the material plane in the Golarionverse.

The spaceship crashed in -4363 AR (Source: the new Numeria book).
4713 AR on Golarion is 1918 CE on pulp earth (Source: Reign of Winter).
So humans humans from "a distant galaxy" were capable of interstellar flight, while it was 7158 BCE on pulp earth, which puts us deep in prehistoric times.

Much too recent to coincide with the appearance of homo sapiens on pulp earth (the civilization who created the ship that crashed in Numeria probably didn't seed human life on pulp earth).
But also much too early to coincide with most popular "ancient aliens" theories (the people who crashed in Numeria probably didn't bring civilization to the humans of pulp earth either).
(Also, this is long before Baba Yaga was even born on pulp earth.)

On Golarion, humans were already civilized at this time, but perhaps only because of the aboleths' involvement.

There are two questions I am asking myself:

1. Who has been seeding human life on (at least) three different worlds on the material plane?
(can't be the Lovecraftian monsters, because their whole "thing" is that they don't care about humanity)

2. Why did one of them advance at a much faster pace then the other two? (much faster than it should have?)
Did they have their own equivalent to the aboleth, who taught them how to use technology?
Or did they evolve on their own?

Real-world conspiracy theory:
"Distant galaxy" sounds suspiciously similar to "galaxy far, far away".

I am half expecting that, before the end of Iron Gods, they will announce that Paizo made a deal with / was sold to Disney - and that the human spaceship that crashed in Numeria had jedi on it.


Maybe the presence of magic and a significant number of other species competing for the same space has been a roadblock to human technological advancement on Golarion.


sunbeam wrote:

Hmmmm makes me think of Mystara. They had a spaceship that had crashed on the planet as well.

I was never sure whether the ship came from our Earth in the future (It was called HMS Beagle or something). Of course that whole thing was kind of "adopted" from Blackmoor, the Arneson setting.

I really miss the Gonzo age.

The Beagle's crew had green skin, so probably not Earth types even though they had English names.

What I want to know is, why are Golarion and Earth so identical in their astronomical features? Exactly the same year and day length, axial tilt, size and orbit of moon...

Wild hypothesis: The units of time we call "days," "years," and "lunar months" are in fact cosmically relevant. Earth and Golarion are mystically interesting because they happen to match up to Cosmic Time; instead of our time units somehow impressing themselves on the universe, it's the other way around.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

What I want to know is, why are Golarion and Earth so identical in their astronomical features? Exactly the same year and day length, axial tilt, size and orbit of moon...

Well, I think the official answer is "because we want Golarion to be as Earth-like as possible so GMs don't have to worry about the planetary effects of having different axial tilts/gravity/planet size/a closer moon/etc."

Unofficially (and in my head canon), ANCIENT ALIENS

*cue puffed up hair from a certain History Channel dude*


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't think there is a connection between Earth having Cthulhu and Golarion having Rovagug, other than "Ancient horror sleeping within the Earth" is a pretty popular trope, and Pathfinder's universe is deliberately set up to be sort of dark and filled with horrors for heroes to face.


Neongelion wrote:
... If that entity got out, that means the space ship was running away from it and crashed on Golarion, ...

Judging by all the specimens from different ecosystems that the ship brought to Golarion, my impression was that it was more of a science vessel.

But if they were indeed running away from something, my bet would be on the dominion on the black:

Don't know if the dominion has been officially confirmed yet to be featured in Iron Gods, but: The dominion didn't have any prominent role in the current Osirion AP, despite the strong ties that Osirion has with the dominion. There are of course several possible explanations for this. But one possible explanation would be that the dominion would play a prominent role in Iron Gods - and they didn't want it to show up in two APs in a row.

It also makes sense if you look at the in-universe timeline:
A human spaceship flees from an expanding dominion and crashes on Golarion in -4363 AR.
The dominion slowly but relentlessly expands and its influence sphere eventually reaches Golarion around -1498 AR (start of the countdown clocks: source: Occult Mysteries).

MagusJanus wrote:
Maybe the presence of magic and a significant number of other species competing for the same space has been a roadblock to human technological advancement on Golarion.

Compared to Golarion, sure. But how would you explain the slow evolution on pulp earth? (even slower than Golarion, in fact)

Neongelion wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

What I want to know is, why are Golarion and Earth so identical in their astronomical features? Exactly the same year and day length, axial tilt, size and orbit of moon...

Well, I think the official answer is "because we want Golarion to be as Earth-like as possible so GMs don't have to worry about the planetary effects of having different axial tilts/gravity/planet size/a closer moon/etc."

In real life, this is most definitely the case.

But in-universe, Midnight Lurker's theory has some appeal.
After all, as a matter of fact Numerology does work in the Golarionverse (source: Occult Mysteries).


The Friendly Lich wrote:
Compared to Golarion, sure. But how would you explain the slow evolution on pulp earth? (even slower than Golarion, in fact)

Lack of magic. I would say that Earth lies primarily outside of the galactic magical field. Which will mean that, once Earth drifts into that field, things will get very, very interesting.


So too much magic isn't good for human evolution - but not enough magic isn't good, either?

While we're at this:
Has anything been revealed yet about the magic-level of the ship that crashed in Numeria?
So far I didn't find any indication that they use any magic at all (for example, all the special abilities in the bestiary section of the Numeria book are Ex - there are no Su or Sp abilities).


The Friendly Lich wrote:

So too much magic isn't good for human evolution - but not enough magic isn't good, either?

While we're at this:
Has anything been revealed yet about the magic-level of the ship that crashed in Numeria?
So far I didn't find any indication that they use any magic at all (for example, all the special abilities in the bestiary section of the Numeria book are Ex - there are no Su or Sp abilities).

Yeah, I think the culture that built the spaceship were completely unaware of the existence of magic (or at least was incapable of utilizing it).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Neongelion wrote:
The Friendly Lich wrote:

So too much magic isn't good for human evolution - but not enough magic isn't good, either?

While we're at this:
Has anything been revealed yet about the magic-level of the ship that crashed in Numeria?
So far I didn't find any indication that they use any magic at all (for example, all the special abilities in the bestiary section of the Numeria book are Ex - there are no Su or Sp abilities).

Yeah, I think the culture that built the spaceship were completely unaware of the existence of magic (or at least was incapable of utilizing it).

Unless of couse the culture was that of the Old Slaan which used horror instead of magic or technology to traverse the stars.


Some more theories on what could have caused the spread of humans:

Desna - she is a weird bug alien from space, but she also is good aligned and takes an interest in mortal life. Plus, one of her domains is travel. What if she systematically spreads specimens of promising species to other planets with compatible environmental conditions?

Leng - Leng is reachable from the earth dreamlands, but also connects to the Mhar Massif in Varisia. Maybe some of the first humans on earth migrated into the dreamlands and from there reached Varisia (and presumably also another world in "a distant galaxy") via Leng.

The Ilee / Apostae - maybe they colonized the universe in their slow moving generation ships. Maybe in "a distant galaxy" there was an unbroken technological advancement over the millennia, from the Apostae-type spaceships to what crashed in Numeria. (There certainly are similarities between the two: both seem to collect weird specimens on their spaceships - and both are using robotics)


The Friendly Lich wrote:

Some more theories on what could have caused the spread of humans:

Leng - Leng is reachable from the earth dreamlands, but also connects to the Mhar Massif in Varisia. Maybe some of the first humans on earth migrated into the dreamlands and from there reached Varisia (and presumably also another world in "a distant galaxy") via Leng.

Something else the denizens of Leng are known for?

Slavery.


The Friendly Lich wrote:
So too much magic isn't good for human evolution - but not enough magic isn't good, either?

Yes. Humans have actually evolved to be best-fit in a rather narrow range of climatic conditions and atmospheric make-up. Too much oxygen is actually as dangerous as too little, for example. So, it makes sense that magic would be the same way. Which means the humans on both Golarion and Earth are not native.

The Friendly Lich wrote:
Leng - Leng is reachable from the earth dreamlands, but also connects to the Mhar Massif in Varisia. Maybe some of the first humans on earth migrated into the dreamlands and from there reached Varisia (and presumably also another world in "a distant galaxy") via Leng.

Well, we know humans on Earth come from West Africa. So, it's possible that, at some point, Leng had a connection to a physical location in that area and that Leng slavers originally dumped humans there. So, it's entirely possible that humans are native to an entirely different planet than Golarion or Earth, and equally possible the Numerian ship was built by humans from that world.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This thread is awesome.

There are some correct guesses here. Not 100% correct... but you folks are, in at least one instance here, pretty good at the sleuthing.


Neongelion wrote:
Yeah, I think the culture that built the spaceship were completely unaware of the existence of magic (or at least was incapable of utilizing it).

Hmm, in that case there really could be a correlation between magic and technical evolution:

The Numerian-spaceship-civilization had the most impressive technological evolution - in an environment devoid of magic.

Earth has shown a slow but steady technological evolution - in a world with some magic (There is some magic on Golarionverse pulp earth, e.g. Baba Yaga and everything from Rasputin must die)

Golarion has a very high level of magic, and human technology there has been stagnant, despite the jump start it was given by the aboleth.

Insofar, I actually revise my opinion and agree with MagusJanus' original assumption now: magic does seem to hinder human technological advancement!

Cthulhudrew wrote:

Something else the denizens of Leng are known for?

Slavery.

The denizens of Leng enslaved a group of primordial humans who migrated from prehistoric earth to the dreamlands - then sold them to the aboleth of Golarion, who used them as a plaything for their cultural experiment.

I like that idea!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
MagusJanus wrote:
Well, we know humans on Earth come from West Africa.

Problem is, the same ways we know that are the ways we know humans evolved here on earth and are genetically related to the rest of the life on earth.

If you want to keep your magical worlds inline with what we know of real world science, there are only a few possibilities. Either all humans in all places derived from earth stock (somehow being spread from there) or humans evolved on earth, and are supernaturally created in other places (for some reason the powers that be must like this particular evolution) or something is directing evolution in multiple places to end up with extremely similar results. Intelligent design if you will. Modern science doesn't have any particular evidence against intelligent design, just simply no evidence for it and no reason to believe it it is happening. Finding out that biologically identical humans evolved on multiple worlds simultaneously would we pretty big evidence that something was causing it.


Dave Justus wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Well, we know humans on Earth come from West Africa.

Problem is, the same ways we know that are the ways we know humans evolved here on earth and are genetically related to the rest of the life on earth.

If you want to keep your magical worlds inline with what we know of real world science, there are only a few possibilities. Either all humans in all places derived from earth stock (somehow being spread from there) or humans evolved on earth, and are supernaturally created in other places (for some reason the powers that be must like this particular evolution) or something is directing evolution in multiple places to end up with extremely similar results. Intelligent design if you will. Modern science doesn't have any particular evidence against intelligent design, just simply no evidence for it and no reason to believe it it is happening. Finding out that biologically identical humans evolved on multiple worlds simultaneously would we pretty big evidence that something was causing it.

Third possibility: Convergent evolution. The earlier species of human on Earth were, like the elves and dwarves of Golarion, evolving to have a similar physical shape as humanity as it exists today. In this case, the one-out-of-one-million shot of similar genetics. While it's incredibly improbable, it's not impossible, and DNA is limited in what chemicals make it up and what possible combinations there are. In this case, the Leng could have found, or even intentionally chose, a planet with almost the same evolutionary history to dump their slaves on.

That also explains why early Homo sapiens went to so much trouble to exterminate those early humans. Uncanny Valley effect.


MagusJanus wrote:
Well, we know humans on Earth come from West Africa. So, it's possible that, at some point, Leng had a connection to a physical location in that area and that Leng slavers originally dumped humans there. So, it's entirely possible that humans are native to an entirely different planet than Golarion or Earth, and equally possible the Numerian ship was built by humans from that world.

Definitely.

If that theory is true, then the Golarion equivalent to West Africa (as the origin of humans on that planet) should be Varisia.
Which actually makes a lot of sense, because Azlant was relatively close to Varisia.

James Jacobs wrote:

This thread is awesome.

There are some correct guesses here. Not 100% correct... but you folks are, in at least one instance here, pretty good at the sleuthing.

Hah, I knew it! So when are you going to announce the Disney deal officially?

Dave Justus wrote:
Problem is, the same ways we know that are the ways we know humans evolved here on earth and are genetically related to the rest of the life on earth.

Good point.

For this reason, my pet theory is that humans (along with dogs, pigs, horses, and cats) originally evolved on earth.

Orcs and Dwarves on the other hand are native to Golarion. Fun fact: orcs and dwarves as we know them today are a pretty recent innovation here on earth. Probably Tolkien based his middle earth mythology at least partly on eye-witness reports from people who had seen Imrijka when she visited earth in 1918.

On Golarion people wouldn't care so much about a common ancestor for all life on the planet. Why would they, in a world where outsiders and magical beasts exist?

Still strange that human-orc hybrids are possible. But then again, so are human-elf hybrids (elves are from a planet without native humans), human-outsider hybrids, human-dragon hybrids, and so on.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Maybe when humans evolved on pulp Earth, some entity/faction did a bit of fiddling with the DNA so as to make humans a sort of "universal USB" when it came to "cross-pollination" with various other races. Hence the half-orcs, half-elves, etc.


Anyone else noticed the similarities with Stargate?

In world of warcraft, Azeroth is some sort of prison for ancient evil gods (mythos inspired), and draenor, the planets where the orcs came from, there was also some ancient evil entity imprisoned there, that was either destroyed or freed when the planet collapsed.
Now, azeroth and draenor are in different galaxies and had different native races. But their purpose within the universe was the same, a prison.


How does everything fit with the multiverse theory though? The elemental planes, positive and negative energy, hell and abyss.

What about the deities? Are they created by magic or what?

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Humans esixt on Earth.
Humans exist on Golarion.
Humans exist on another plant (or did exist) that launched a spaceship that crashed on Golarion.
Conclusions:
1) Humans exist on a lot of different planets; or
2) Humans from the spaceship-launching planets specifically targeted Golarion because they knew or suspected Humans were there.

-Skeld


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

we know a few details,

1.Earth: humanity started in West Africa, this world had some form of magic on it that slowly disappeared before the 20th century. during the 20th and into the 21st century humanities technological abilities advanced faster and faster. without divine magic behind it the religions of the world had less control of governments(mostly) which led to many nations separating church from state.

2.Golarion: humanity started out as roaming tribes until the aboleths began their project creating the Azlanti.(OM, Pg.9) Magic exists strongly in this world. technology has advanced slowly, except in the case of Alkenstar where firearms and clockwork machines have power. With magic the drive for technological advancement is slowed. Religions hold great power.

3.Unknown world: Magic does not exist, it's drive for technological advancement must be incredibly fast. they either left for another world or sent an exploration vessel out towards Golarion's system. on the way a malfunction occurred causing them to crash land in Numeria.

We know that Aberrant forces have always had an interest in humanity, one world had no magic, one world started with magic, and one world is infused with magic. Azlanti were masters in both magic and technology, and they colonized the moon. Azlanti were an "experiment".


zergtitan wrote:

1.Earth: humanity started in West Africa, this world had some form of magic on it that slowly disappeared before the 20th century. during the 20th and into the 21st century humanities technological abilities advanced faster and faster. without divine magic behind it the religions of the world had less control of governments(mostly) which led to many nations separating church from state.

Is there any evidence that magic on pulp earth was stronger in the past than it is in the present time of 1919?

I always assumed it was not so much a matter of magic disappearing from earth over time, but a matter of fictional earth having more magic than real earth. Just like the fact that Cthulhu and Santa Clause don't really live on the earth today doesn't mean global warming made them disappear during the 20th or 21st century.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Friendly Lich wrote:
zergtitan wrote:

1.Earth: humanity started in West Africa, this world had some form of magic on it that slowly disappeared before the 20th century. during the 20th and into the 21st century humanities technological abilities advanced faster and faster. without divine magic behind it the religions of the world had less control of governments(mostly) which led to many nations separating church from state.

Is there any evidence that magic on pulp earth was stronger in the past than it is in the present time of 1919?

I always assumed it was not so much a matter of magic disappearing from earth over time, but a matter of fictional earth having more magic than real earth. Just like the fact that Cthulhu and Santa Clause don't really live on the earth today doesn't mean global warming made them disappear during the 20th or 21st century.

I believe "Rasputin Must Die" had some description in it talking about magic being in stronger amounts on Golarion until more recent years.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Friendly Lich wrote:
Is there any evidence that magic on pulp earth was stronger in the past than it is in the present time of 1919?

Yes.


SLAaDOS wrote:
The Friendly Lich wrote:
Is there any evidence that magic on pulp earth was stronger in the past than it is in the present time of 1919?
Yes.

Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Lost Omens Campaign Setting / General Discussion / Connections between Golarion, Earth, and the Numerian starship's home planet All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion