Bonus calculations.


Rules Questions


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Okay, this one is driving me batty..

How are bonuses to d20 rolls calculated? I was under the impression that all variables are added together, and the total is the bonus (or penalty) you would receive, with there being no way to modify a number on the back end.

Example.

We have a player whom is trying to use Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall to affect his CMB.

Agile maneuvers replaces your strength with your dexterity for figuring out your CMB.

Fury's Fall allows you to add your dex to your CMB when making a trip attempt.

As I see it, the equation would using these two feats would be as follows

BaB+Dex (agile maneuvers)+Dex (Furys fall)+Size+Misc=CMB. This of course would mean that his dex bonus would only stack once.

He is reading it as follows

BaB+Dex (agile maneuvers)+size=CMB+Dex (Furys fall).

Which (if any) is correct? and to further broaden the question which/what would be the correct way for calculating bonuses? Does anything ever add to the final/backend number?

Silver Crusade

He has Agile Maneuvers. He already addes dex to CMB, thus Fury's Fall does nothing for him.

I am sure someone will correct me if they think I am wrong. ;)


This specific question is actually a symptom of a larger problem. James Jacobs (Creative Director) said that he would not allow a player to get dex bonus twice from the specific sources Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall. This has not been a popular opinion with many members on the board and usually breaks down into large arguments.

Ask your GM, or if you are the GM make a decision about how you feel it should work.

Sczarni

Yes, searching past threads now it does appear that opinions are varied. I can't find anything official at the moment.

To quote the conclusion of the most recent thread two months ago:

blahpers wrote:
Gauss wrote:
No, you cannot add the same bonus twice. That is a general design principle of the game.
Note that there is no actual rules support for this, nor any real reason for it other than designer distaste. There are a number of threads on the topic, none of which have ended with any kind of consensus.


The misunderstanding is in people conflating three concepts concerning bonuses: Source, Value, and Type.

Source is what rules element lets you add a bonus. Adding Str to your attack rolls is sourced from the Combat rules while the bonus you get from Power Attack is sourced from the Power Attack feat. Bonuses from the same source never stack so you can't say, "I'll just use Power Attack twice, take 2x the penalty and get 2x the bonus."

Value is how much the bonus is. In the case of Power Attack, the value is +2 for BAB<+4, and goes up by 2 for every +4 BAB you have. In the case of Str to attack, the value of the bonus is equal to a factor of your Str modifier; 1x for main-hand attacks, 0.5x for off-hand attacks, 1.5x for 2-h attacks. Some feats let you change the value of a bonus you get. Weapon Finesse changes the value of your bonus to attack rolls from 'Str mod' to 'Dex mod'. This isn't changing the source of the bonus; that's still the general combat rules. Rather, it's changing the value of the bonus.

Type refers to what kind of bonus it is; enhancement, luck, morale, competence, etc. Most bonuses of the same type, even from different sources, don't stack; the exceptions are explicitly stated. Many bonuses, such as the Power Attack bonus or the standard 'Str to attack' from Combat rules are untyped bonuses and, thus, stack without issue with other bonus types.

There are no rules for stacking different bonuses of the same value so two bonuses, each equal in value to your Dex modifier without conflicting types, from different sources will stack. To illustrate:

Agile Maneuvers lets you change the value of the untyped (type) bonus granted to Combat Maneuver rolls by the general Combat Rules (source) from Str to Dex. Fury's Fall (source) lets you add an untyped (type) bonus equal in value to your Dex modifier to Combat Maneuver rolls. Since they are from different sources, Combat Rules and the Fury's Fall feat respectively, and not conflicting types, the fact that they share the same value is inconsequential. It would be the same if two bonuses were '+2' from different sources and non-conflicting types. Some people, JJ included, incorrectly presume the attribute score providing the value to be the "source" of the bonus. To say so is to say that the "source" of your Power Attack bonus is 'the number 2' because the value of the bonus is +2; thus making the game into an episode of Sesame Street. This Power Attack is brought to you by the number '2'. One, two, two extra points of damage. Ahh ahh ahh. Oh, I also have Haste for an extra attack. One, two, two smacks. Ahh ahh ahh.

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